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  1. #1
    Community Member Depravity's Avatar
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    Default The Abuse Sponge paladin

    Just ideas, not a full build yet

    I've been kicking around the idea of a "tar baby" guard build since the shroud hit live
    Which begat plans to use the Bracers of he Demon Consort
    Which required me to self-cast restore on a front-line melee
    Which meant paladin
    Which led to Hunter of the Dead II - remove disease bceoms full restore
    Which comes with healing amp
    Which got into a train wreck with GlassCannon's Punchy build
    Which made me think very silly thoughts

    Basically, monk gets healing amp, hunter of the dead gets healing amp, humans get healing amp, equipment can get healing amp, and paladins getting boostable self cast cure spells. I smell interesting stacking.

    Judging from the numbers on the punchy build, it looks like enhancements are additive, times gear, times devotion, times casting gear, times metamagic.

    Punchy has logged a 2,130 point sovereignity, and the closest I can get the numbers to come is:
    1.6 (60% human/monk amp) * 1.2 (bracers) * 1.1 (fleshmaker's necklace wihich is known to be screwy anyway) = 2.112

    Assumption: Hunter of the Dead gets healing amp at each tier, and Turbine stuck with the standard 10% at each stage.

    We end up with something that looks like:

    30% human healing amp
    10% monk healing amp
    20% HotD healing amp (guesswork)
    60% enhancements
    40% Devotion (likely to be 30%, I can use the 4 AP elsewhere)
    30% EQ (60% if shroud healing amp stacks)
    50% devotion/potency item
    150% empowered healing & maximize
    28.5 - avg from a lev 15 cure serious (3d8 + 15)

    1.6*1.4*1.3*1.5*2.5*28.5 = 311.22 avg CSW

    If shroud amp stacks:
    1.6*1.4*1.6*1.5*2.5*28.5 = 383.04 avg CSW

    ###EDIT###
    vyvy3369 has tested the healing amps (thread here), and says I may be looking at higher numbers.
    Like 500+ point CSW higher. That's likely to be as many, if not more, hp than this guy will actually have. This makes me happy.
    ######

    Hunter of the Dead also gets you extra turn attempts, which can be used to power divine might. Not to mention drain immunity, and we all love drain immunity. Should actually be a solid beholder/doomsphere hunter.

    So the currently proposed level split looks like:
    15 paladin - divine might three, full AC aura, self cast CSW and Zeal (I scoff at your tempest splash )
    3 monk - 10% amp, path of light buffs, 2 extra feats
    1-2 wizard - extra spell points, self cast shields, free metamagic
    pally 16 and monk 4 are both nothing spectacular, so I'm leaning towards wizard 2 for extra spell slot and 4 minute self cast shields
    HotD III is less than alluring as well - become s avorpal version of the shroud "greater disruption" ability

    Twf khopesh pally as a base platform
    14/ 15/ 12/ 10/ 14/ 14 for stats - little lower str than I'd like, but everything but int (i have a +1 tome for casting purposes) really comes into play on this. 15 dex for twf w/ tome, 14 cha gets me divine might I, II with +2 tome, III if I ever pull a +4.

    lv 16 feats:
    2 monk - toughness, PA
    1 human
    6 character

    toughness, twf, oversized twf, itwf, gtwf, exotic:khopesh, IC:slash, extend, power attack

    Since this build doesn't differ much from a base monkadin until HotD becomes avialable, I went with extend for longer self buffs. At higher levels or post mod, swap out extend for empower healing, pick up extend and maximize with the wizard bonus feat and lvl 18 feat. Wizard enhancements for cheaper maximize and SP.

    Percieved uses:
    Ridculously easy to heal for use as a "hero" or "bait"
    Maxed concentration - can put away weapons, meditate and drop monk buffs before a big fight
    Pseudo-monk - can put on handwraps and go to town, dropping triple pos heal bursts and yet more buffs to help stretch your clericing dollar
    If ya really need a tank - 100% hate enhancement, moderate DPS, and smites can get some attention if there isn't a "true" tank around.
    You already figured a +5 pally boost in your AC, didn't you?
    Concordant opposition monkey - gets about 1 SP back per hit (5% chance of avg 27) 1 SP = approx 5 hp (60 SP for 300 HP CSW). Call it something like "time delayed stacking DR 5"
    Fire and forget - doesn't need anywhere near as much babysitting as some uberleet builds
    Can save lay on hands for teammates
    makes for happy clerics - not only easy to heal, but can cast jump.

    Weaknesses:
    Have to spend some gear slots on healing eq - twf makes healing amp easy wih offhand shroud khopesh
    AC is mediocre - guildy figures it will be mid to high 40s, mid 50s with raid buffs
    Will get powergamer knickers in a twist - or is this a postiive?
    May start fights with clerics over raid gear.
    Really wants casting ability - madstone is contraindicated.

    Currently planning on 14/2 monkadin to be leveled before mod 9

    There it is, pick holes in it please
    Couple of questions:
    Do multiple concordant opposition items stack? I'm thinking off hand (with positive devoted to healing amp neg/pos/pos-neg) and spell item.
    Has anyone tinkered with HotD on Lamannia? Any insight? ###Edit### SteeleTrueheart has confirmed that HotD II will net me 20% healing amp###
    Anyone built a triple positve shroud weapon, all healing amp? How does it work? ###This appears to be all stacky too###
    Last edited by Depravity; 08-18-2009 at 12:28 PM.
    Near useless builds for those who want a challenge: The True(ly Useless) Necromancer - The Abuse Sponge Paladin
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

  2. #2
    Community Member Varr's Avatar
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    This build looks rediculas.....it could be so wrong it's right. I think I'll roll one up!!!
    Varr's all over. Sarlona Varrr getting the love currently.

  3. #3
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Take advantage of the mediocre AC and throw a bunch of guard items on him. You can turn him into a porcupine with blades.
    Ghallanda: Neatoelf15wiz/1rgr, Neetoelf17wiz, NeatoManhuman13rog/6pal/1mnk, NeatoHombrehuman12ftr/6pal/2rog, Kneetoedwarf17clr, Kneedoughdrow18clr/2mnk

    Minimize expectations and you'll never be disappointed

  4. #4
    Community Member SteeleTrueheart's Avatar
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    HotD is indeed 10% at each level. Can't remember if they stack or multiply.

    Dev has stated that items with the same level of healing amp do not stack. (Similar to dodge items) and that only items with different levels affect each other. ie you could wear a 10%, 20% and 30% item without problems but not multiples of any of those even if on different item slots.

    Also the new mod raid rings will allow you to put the 30% healing amp in the ring slot.
    Last edited by SteeleTrueheart; 08-17-2009 at 10:16 PM.
    Khyber - Officer in The Stormreach Thieves Guild
    Steeles (TR 1 Paladin 20 / 8 Epic - TWF) - Steeley (Monkadin - Pal 18/Monk 2/ 8 Epic - Unarmed) - Steeltruhart (TR1 Paladin 17 - S&B Bastardsword) - Steelforged (Pal 20 / 8 Epic - SWF) - Steeltruhurt (TR1 - Pal 8 / Ftr 2 - THF) Steelsouls (Clr 17 / Pal 3 /8 Epic)

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Depravity View Post
    We end up with something that looks like:

    30% human healing amp
    10% monk healing amp
    20% HotD healing amp (guesswork)
    60% enhancements
    40% Devotion (likely to be 30%, I can use the 4 AP elsewhere)
    30% EQ (60% if shroud healing amp stacks)
    50% devotion/potency item
    150% empowered healing & maximize
    28.5 - avg from a lev 15 cure serious (3d8 + 15)

    1.6*1.4*1.3*1.5*2.5*28.5 = 311.22 avg CSW

    If shroud amp stacks:
    1.6*1.4*1.6*1.5*2.5*28.5 = 383.04 avg CSW

    Anyone built a triple positve shroud weapon, all healing amp? How does it work?
    You're a bit off on some of those. Healing Amp items multiply with each other, excepting items that give the same bonus. The exception being the Finger Necklace, which gives 10% extra, but it stacks really weird...it only gets 10% of the non-amplified version, plus 10% of any healing amplification that gets applied AFTER it. So if you put on the Finger Necklace and then all your other items, you can get a slightly higher healing amp, but it's generally not worth the fuss. In any case, what you're looking at is probably something like this:

    31.5 avg CSW (1d8s for cure spells count as 1d6+2 unless they changed it - I honestly haven't checked in years) for a 15th level caster. 90% between Devotion item and enhancement, Empower Healing & Maximize makes the un-amplified CSW ~179.55 (for example, if you cast it on an un-amplified non-WF)

    [edit: it's been a while since I've done these, but I figured: 31.5 * (1 + [.4 (devotion enh) + .5 (potency)]) * 1.5 (emp healing) * 2 (maximize)]

    Healing Amplification you mentioned:
    1.3 (Human) * 1.1 (Monk) * 1.2 (HotD, probably will stack to be 20% equivalent like the other enhancements do) * 1.1 (DT Eldritch or Pos Tier 1) * 1.2 (Levik's Bracers, DT Tempest or Pos Tier 2) * 1.3 (Pos Tier 3) + Finger Necklace = 294.4% + Finger Necklace, which you can reasonably expect to be able to put on the healing amplification items afterwards, for an additional 17.16%, or ~311%

    311% of 141.75 being roughly 558.

    Edit: it's also good to note that this is very close to what a Human Monk can achieve from what I recall, but because they multiply this ends up being slightly ahead. I documented a lot of these calculations here a while back.
    Last edited by vyvy3369; 08-17-2009 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Forgot your devotion enhancements
    Recently completed a very slow Completionist adventure, playing each class until I was bored. My son (Henry) randomly picked the next class from the ones I hadn't done yet.

  6. #6
    Community Member Depravity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varr View Post
    This build looks rediculas.....it could be so wrong it's right. I think I'll roll one up!!!
    If it doesn't look entertaining, I don't build it.

    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    Take advantage of the mediocre AC and throw a bunch of guard items on him. You can turn him into a porcupine with blades.
    That went through my mind, but between the new sets, shroud hp/sp items, and a few named goodies, I'm not looking at too many open slots. We'll see how things work out after the shroud has been farmed a few 20's of times for cleansing essences.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteeleTrueheart View Post
    HotD is indeed 10% at each level. Can't remember if they stack or multiply.

    Dev has stated that items with the same level of healing amp do not stack. (Similar to dodge items) and that only items with different levels affect each other. ie you could wear a 10%, 20% and 30% item without problems but not multiples of any of those even if on different item slots.

    Also the new mod raid rings will allow you to put the 30% healing amp in the ring slot.
    Thanks very much for that information. I was thinking I may have to get all 3 on a single shroud weap in order to get that 60%, but being able to spread them around makes eq much easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by vyvy3369 View Post
    311% of 141.75 being roughly 558.
    Okay, that's going to be something like: I'm nearly dead, I'll just drop a CSW and heal myself to full. It also means that concordant oppositon gets me about:
    27/20 = 1.35 SP per hit
    60/1.35 = emp/max CSW every 44 hits
    500/44 = 11 and change HP back per hit

    That only goes up if having multiple conc opp items gets me mutliple chances to pop the sp return, but is also a worst case scenario in terms of me actually being 500 down every time I can pop a CSW. Not quite imortal yet.

    I don't think I'm going to need to grab devotion 4.

    I have this rolled up and running around. I had some various block robes (now replaced with an invuln), got black widow bracers my first try, and found some shield clickies, which totals to her being ridiculously hard to take down. Still working on learning when to touch off smite for a double thump.

    Paladin has - unsurprisingly - turned out to be pretty synergistic w/ monk. That cocentration boost on my aura is extremely nice when I'm smacking things around with my fists. Which is currently mostly oozes (acid touch handwraps from korthos and lightning fists) and mummies (doubled d4 + d6 of fire = very dead mummy).
    Near useless builds for those who want a challenge: The True(ly Useless) Necromancer - The Abuse Sponge Paladin
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

  7. #7
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depravity View Post
    {snip}
    Still working on learning when to touch off smite for a double thump.
    Until you get Gtr TWF use smite on second attack. With Imp TWF you can use it at 2nd or 3rd attack animation for a twofer. With Imp TWF on my Paly, its normally a trip followed by a diving sacrifice followed by exalt smite (to get that +5 to hit on 3rd attack animation).

    Gtr TWF will get you twofers for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and 4th attack animations.
    Last edited by kuro_zero; 08-18-2009 at 10:45 AM. Reason: GTWF 2 Atk on 4th Attack as well
    Officer of Disciples of the Apocalypse on Sarlona
    Himawari Life 3 - 1 FvS | Svipul Life 3 - 1 FvS | Chikaze Life 2 - 2 PAL / 2 MNK / 4 FVS
    Completionist Project: GLaDOS - Life 14 of ??: Bladeforged 'Zeus' - Started 22/02/14

  8. #8
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    Until you get Gtr TWF use smite on second attack. With Imp TWF you can use it at 2nd or 3rd attack animation for a twofer. With Imp TWF on my Paly, its normally a trip followed by a diving sacrifice followed by exalt smite (to get that +5 to hit on 3rd attack animation).

    Gtr TWF will get you twofers for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd and 4th attack animations.
    You sure about that? hmm.. will need to reconsider the twf line for my evasion intimipally.
    Ghallanda: Neatoelf15wiz/1rgr, Neetoelf17wiz, NeatoManhuman13rog/6pal/1mnk, NeatoHombrehuman12ftr/6pal/2rog, Kneetoedwarf17clr, Kneedoughdrow18clr/2mnk

    Minimize expectations and you'll never be disappointed

  9. #9
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    You sure about that? hmm.. will need to reconsider the twf line for my evasion intimipally.
    Quite sure. Sup TWF (Tempest III only) should add a second attack to the fifth and last attack animation.
    Officer of Disciples of the Apocalypse on Sarlona
    Himawari Life 3 - 1 FvS | Svipul Life 3 - 1 FvS | Chikaze Life 2 - 2 PAL / 2 MNK / 4 FVS
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  10. #10
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    Quite sure. Sup TWF (Tempest III only) should add a second attack to the fifth and last attack animation.
    Actually, the way it's implemented in ddo with GrTWF and >bab14 you get a second attack on all 5 attack animations.
    http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Combo_chain

    so, anytime I hit the smite button I'll get both a main and offhand smite? I'm gonna have to check this out on the portals. If i'm running at the portals I should get two smites everytime I hit smite.
    Last edited by krud; 08-18-2009 at 11:29 PM.
    Ghallanda: Neatoelf15wiz/1rgr, Neetoelf17wiz, NeatoManhuman13rog/6pal/1mnk, NeatoHombrehuman12ftr/6pal/2rog, Kneetoedwarf17clr, Kneedoughdrow18clr/2mnk

    Minimize expectations and you'll never be disappointed

  11. #11
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    I have a 15 BaB Tempest ranger and I do not get 2 attacks on my 5th animation

    only if you have Gtr TWF will you get two smites off even running - if not you have to smite on the 2nd attack.
    Officer of Disciples of the Apocalypse on Sarlona
    Himawari Life 3 - 1 FvS | Svipul Life 3 - 1 FvS | Chikaze Life 2 - 2 PAL / 2 MNK / 4 FVS
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  12. #12
    Community Member krud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    I have a 15 BaB Tempest ranger and I do not get 2 attacks on my 5th animation

    only if you have Gtr TWF will you get two smites off even running - if not you have to smite on the 2nd attack.
    I have a gtwf build with 2 pal. I can check to see if his (weak) smite goes off twice.

    edit - yes it does. neato!
    Last edited by krud; 08-19-2009 at 11:07 AM.
    Ghallanda: Neatoelf15wiz/1rgr, Neetoelf17wiz, NeatoManhuman13rog/6pal/1mnk, NeatoHombrehuman12ftr/6pal/2rog, Kneetoedwarf17clr, Kneedoughdrow18clr/2mnk

    Minimize expectations and you'll never be disappointed

  13. #13
    Community Member kuro_zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krud View Post
    I have a gtwf build with 2 pal. I can check to see if his (weak) smite goes off twice.

    edit - yes it does. neato!
    Also works for trip and stun - any activated attack ability.

    Double your pleasure, double the fun.
    Officer of Disciples of the Apocalypse on Sarlona
    Himawari Life 3 - 1 FvS | Svipul Life 3 - 1 FvS | Chikaze Life 2 - 2 PAL / 2 MNK / 4 FVS
    Completionist Project: GLaDOS - Life 14 of ??: Bladeforged 'Zeus' - Started 22/02/14

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