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  1. #81
    Community Member Templarion's Avatar
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    Having played both wizard and sorcerer I would answer:

    Wizard

    Melee classes can handle the DPS. CC and buffing is what arcanes do. Especially good wizard you get if you begin with sorcerer and TR to wizard. Of course, we all need firewall in Shadow Crypt but you don't need to be a sorcerer to cast it often enough. Also remember, that you probably spend most of the time above level 15 where melee classes start catching up with DPS.
    Last edited by Templarion; 11-27-2010 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #82
    Community Member Admiral_Otto's Avatar
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    Cheech Marin said it best: "They're like the same, but different."

    I personally love being able to swap spells around at whim as a Wizard, but I'm somewhat envious of the Sorcerer's extra SP.

    I regret nothing having chosen Wizard but I bet I'd say the same thing if I had chosen a Sorc. Pale Master does have some nifty things going on for the right person/playstyle.

    Good luck!

  3. #83
    Community Member Majere_Aumar's Avatar
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    At the moment, Wizard, by a long way -

    Much higher DC's and with archmage, free spells (pretty much).

    An evoker archmage can do many times more damage than a sorc on a tank of spell points and can do higher sustained DPS in long boss fights. Much easier to solo.

    An AM enchanter can do CC all day long, at maximum DC (with +3 to +5 DC over a sorc) at maximum range (enlarge spell) with quicken switched on.

    More Feats
    More Skills
    Spell Swapping
    No -2 primary stat penalty for self healing warforged
    Fleshies (palemasters) can self heal too and get additional immunities + HP
    Can wear full plate, shields...etc and still cast archmage spells

    Downside:
    No UMD, but res items are easy to come by and make.

  4. #84
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    UMD does more than res scrolls. i can heal other people in the party with my sorcerer. i carry restoration scrolls for negative levels (and there is no clicky for that). i can equip items that would otherwise be restricted to me.

    being able to wear full plate and shields is pointless. they don't work for the average fighter, what makes you think for a second your caster is going to have enough AC because of full plate + shield?

    more feats - useful
    more skills - well, it's not completely bad. but you'll notice that in most sorcerer builds, if you have any spare points left it goes to *strength*, not intelligence. if more skill points was really that great, don't you think we'd be spending them there?
    spell swapping - there still aren't that many spells out there that i would care to swap for. this is one of those advantages that still hasn't become much, if any, advantage for the wizard.
    no penalty to stat for self healing warforged? good for you. i have no healing amp disadvantage, and can self-heal on my sorcerer too. they have these marvellous things called scrolls. you should try them sometime. i also hapen to be able to benefit from what i like to call "other-healing", which is when someone else heals you and the number isn't half what everyone else gets, meaning that i often don't *have* to self-heal so much, because getting full benefit from the AOE healing of the group healer keeps me from being low enough that i need to self-heal all the time.

    warforge comes with advantages. most of them can be replaced by relatively common buff spells. warforged also come with disadvantages. these are not so easily overcome.

  5. #85
    Community Member Crystalizer's Avatar
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    sorcerers suffer now from the lack of feats and wizards have prestige enhancements which reduce much the difference between these 2 classes regarding mana pool & nuking abilities. now the only thing that sorcerers still have is a faster spellcasting, quite handy as a warforged battlesorcerer but for a pure arcane, well, on a wiz you will just cast 2 spells as a loop instead of one only on the sorcerer. DC is important for arcanes (insta killing, CC), in some quests this is even the only efficient spells. sorcerers are more fun & easier to play but will be kinda useless in some quests since your spells wont land and so you will be a buffbot at that point.
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  6. #86
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crystalizer View Post
    sorcerers suffer now from the lack of feats and wizards have prestige enhancements which reduce much the difference between these 2 classes regarding mana pool & nuking abilities. now the only thing that sorcerers still have is a faster spellcasting, quite handy as a warforged battlesorcerer but for a pure arcane, well, on a wiz you will just cast 2 spells as a loop instead of one only on the sorcerer. DC is important for arcanes (insta killing, CC), in some quests this is even the only efficient spells. sorcerers are more fun & easier to play but will be kinda useless in some quests since your spells wont land and so you will be a buffbot at that point.
    1) buffbots are not useless. not as exciting, perhaps, but definitely not useless.
    2) if your spells are never landing on a sorcerer, it's probably because you lack gear, not because you're a sorcerer.

    once i'm finished my current TR, assuming no further gear, my sorcerer should have DC 36 mass holds, and DC 35 in pretty much everything else. if i can get the rest of the gear i would *like* to have, i'll be able to throw DC 39 mass holds, and DC 37 in everything else (well, DC 38 in conjuration, but that's a real long-shot i think :P ). as good as a wizard? well, no. obviously the wizard can get better DCs. but with the right gear, a sorcerer can definitely get "good enough" DCs (obviously, with the same or equivalent gear, the wizard will have even better DCs, mind you)

    edit: to phrase this another way, i am often quite shocked to discover that the wizards i group with have considerably lower DCs than me. being a wizard is not an instant ticket to high DCs, it merely opens up the potential for it; you still have to actually build right and have the right gear.

  7. #87
    Community Member AylinIsAwesome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    1) buffbots are not useless. not as exciting, perhaps, but definitely not useless.
    No, buffbots are in fact useless when you consider that a better played, equipped and built character can buff and do other things.

  8. #88
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AylinIsAwesome View Post
    No, buffbots are in fact useless when you consider that a better played, equipped and built character can buff and do other things.
    perhaps you should try understanding what useless actually means instead of inventing your own meaning. you might find that when you do so, you will actually make sense. for example, you could use words like "less useful than other things" or "not as good as you could be", which would be accurate, instead of useless, which would mean (shockingly enough) not having a use. buffing = has a use = not useless.

  9. #89
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    I can be a Lich Na NA nabooo booo


    you were saying?

  10. #90
    Community Member lugoman's Avatar
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    I think the addition of epic content has hurt my sorc. The spell layout I use for soloing/raids/quest just isnt optimal in epics. I find the inability to easily swap out spells a huge drawback to sorcs at endgame. I dont mind the expense, but I wish they would nix or lessen the wait.

  11. #91
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    Dont forget about HP difference. The class feat metamagics from wizard allow you to take multiple toughness, and on a wizard who splashed monk, were talking almost 200 more hp on the wizard. My lvl 20 sorc had around 350 hp, who is now TR'd into a 18/2 wiz/monk who is sitting at 487 unbuffed, up to 547 with greensteel con kama and using earthstance. This is after I respec'd to archmage, before that I had 4 toughness and was breaking 600+ on HP. Now you could splash a sorc with monk or take multiple toughness with a sorc, but that really hurts your higher lvl spell selection, metamagic choices and would also require you to invest in a decent dex to achieve a semi decent reflex. Add in that wizards currently have PRE's and can also achieve higher dc's because of those, I think we know who will be more survivable in the end game.
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  12. #92
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    Q&A is the business of pointing out others' failures. Optimists need not apply.

  13. #93
    Community Member GBantaR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorien_the_First_One View Post
    Wizard = swiss army knife
    Sorc = bazooka

    Both have their place, both are better in certain situations, both are fun to play, neither is better.
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  14. #94
    Community Member Jaid314's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDiamondz View Post
    Dont forget about HP difference. The class feat metamagics from wizard allow you to take multiple toughness, and on a wizard who splashed monk, were talking almost 200 more hp on the wizard. My lvl 20 sorc had around 350 hp, who is now TR'd into a 18/2 wiz/monk who is sitting at 487 unbuffed, up to 547 with greensteel con kama and using earthstance. This is after I respec'd to archmage, before that I had 4 toughness and was breaking 600+ on HP. Now you could splash a sorc with monk or take multiple toughness with a sorc, but that really hurts your higher lvl spell selection, metamagic choices and would also require you to invest in a decent dex to achieve a semi decent reflex. Add in that wizards currently have PRE's and can also achieve higher dc's because of those, I think we know who will be more survivable in the end game.
    i would never, *ever* spend more than one feat for toughness on a wizard. there's way too many feats that i want.

    i want empower, maximise, heighten, extend, quicken, and possibly enlarge. that's 6 right there. i want one toughness. we're up to 7, the normal allowance for feats. 5 more to go, i want two spell focus feats (ench, conj), two greater spell focus feats (same), possibly augment summoning, possibly mental toughness to qualify for a PrE such as archmage, spell penetration, greater spell penetration...

    we're already up to 15 feats that i want (3 more than the average wizard gets, 2 more than a human wizard gets), and i could easily see wanting more. (as an example, focus and greater focus in necromancy; indeed, for pale master, i'm already having to lose two of the above to be able to take the stuff that i need, and if i had room in my archmage i'd want the necromancy feats also).

    take multiple toughnesses? not a chance. i only take one because it allows 20-40 hit points to be bought via enhancements.

  15. #95
    Community Member shagath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    take multiple toughnesses? not a chance. i only take one because it allows 20-40 hit points to be bought via enhancements.
    Same here and think how he talks about sorcerer having multiple toughness feats. When you counted your feats, remove 5 and try to fit multiple tougness feats in.

    That's sorcerer without DCs, nuking potential or spell pen because lack of feat slots. Can be still useful in hound though if they have globe of invulnerability memorized but with sorc spell slots, no room for it. Oh and of course repair man(recon vod/tod).
    Last edited by shagath; 12-09-2010 at 03:56 AM.

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  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaid314 View Post
    i would never, *ever* spend more than one feat for toughness on a wizard. there's way too many feats that i want.

    i want empower, maximise, heighten, extend, quicken, and possibly enlarge. that's 6 right there. i want one toughness. we're up to 7, the normal allowance for feats. 5 more to go, i want two spell focus feats (ench, conj), two greater spell focus feats (same), possibly augment summoning, possibly mental toughness to qualify for a PrE such as archmage, spell penetration, greater spell penetration...

    we're already up to 15 feats that i want (3 more than the average wizard gets, 2 more than a human wizard gets), and i could easily see wanting more. (as an example, focus and greater focus in necromancy; indeed, for pale master, i'm already having to lose two of the above to be able to take the stuff that i need, and if i had room in my archmage i'd want the necromancy feats also).

    take multiple toughnesses? not a chance. i only take one because it allows 20-40 hit points to be bought via enhancements.
    Well thats you and you can do that, but not everybody does and I was just saying what I know from my caster. In the end, wizards can get more HP because they have more feats. You dont have to take toughness more then once, but you can and not give up much for it unlike a sorc. Also I was mainly talking about splash builds, which with 2 monk lvls you are going to have at least 2 toughness regardless. Like I said before, you cant really splash a sorc without losing a lot. Spell Pen feats can be eliminated with wizard and FVS past lifes. Augment summoning?! LOL no comment on that.

    This is what my 18/2 has for feats in order of Monk\Wizard\Normal, only 1 past life sorc.

    Toughness x2 \ Max, Empower, Quicken, Extend \ Heighten, Enchant Focus, G.Enchant Focus, Mental Toughness, Insight Reflex, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen

    There is nothing wrong with this setup and with a few past lives I could free up 2 feat slots (spell pen), which in turn will allow me to take the trainable wizard past life (+1 to all DC's) and conjuration focus for my secondary school which allows me to get the archmage web. Taking focus in a 3rd school is a waste IMO. If your gonna go archmage then go archmage, and if your gonna go pale master then go pale master, but taking all those schools to try and qualify for both is just bad building.
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by shagath View Post
    Same here and think how he talks about sorcerer having multiple toughness feats. When you counted your feats, remove 5 and try to fit multiple tougness feats in.

    That's sorcerer without DCs, nuking potential or spell pen because lack of feat slots. Can be still useful in hound though if they have globe of invulnerability memorized but with sorc spell slots, no room for it. Oh and of course repair man(recon vod/tod).
    Who said anything about sorcs having multiple toughness, im talking about wizards taking it, and why sorcs cant. learn to read. I said they could if they really wanted, but it would seriously gimp them. You don't need school focus to have effective dc's, and you dont need spell pen if you stack past lives.
    Last edited by KingofDiamondz; 12-09-2010 at 04:44 AM.
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  18. #98
    Community Member shagath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDiamondz View Post
    Who said anything about sorcs having multiple toughness, im talking about wizards taking it, and why sorcs cant. learn to read. I said they could if they really wanted, but it would seriously gimp them.
    You did:
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofDiamondz View Post
    Now you could splash a sorc with monk or take multiple toughness with a sorc, but that really hurts your higher lvl spell selection, metamagic choices and would also require you to invest in a decent dex to achieve a semi decent reflex.
    You say it hurts and I said so too. I see no problem.

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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by shagath View Post
    You did:You say it hurts and I said so too. I see no problem.
    You made it seem like i was suggesting it tho as a good thing, anyways im done, tired and off to bed, my point is made for the OP
    Last edited by KingofDiamondz; 12-09-2010 at 04:52 AM.
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  20. #100
    Community Member LightBear's Avatar
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    Elf-Sorc with quicken and a nose bleeding of speed (eg: the spell haste);
    WF-Wiz with Shroud of the Lich and Death Aura;

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