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  1. #1
    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
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    Default Definition of a DPS Build

    Background: I frequently see posters responding on players builds that "that isn't a real DPS build."

    So how do we define a DPS build/character? If you believe some posters, the only way to be a REAL DPS build/character - the impression is often that unless you are a khopesh-using TWFing kensai/ranger - you are not REAL DPS. Of course, this means that only 2% of the melees on any server are DPS by this definition.

    And certainly we can't leave equipment out of the discussion. Saw a flavor of the month build yesterday trying to vorpal a beholder... No cookie-cutter build is going to save your character from your own retardation or the fact that you only play once a month.

    To me, I think the following is enough to qualify as a DPS build:
    1) Str build w/ PA
    2) TWF/THF
    3) Reasonably high end equipment... (hardest to define)
    I.E. the focus is on DPS

    This is purely an imagined discourse but, the reason for posting, is that I want to hear others' thoughts on the matter. Yes, I know TWF is better than THF in current end game. But does that mean that THF is no longer considered a DPS build option? What percentage of the melee population should be considered DPS builds - top 30%? Or just the top 2%?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    To me, I think the following is enough to qualify as a DPS build:
    1) Str build w/ PA
    2) TWF/THF
    3) Reasonably high end equipment... (hardest to define)
    I.E. the focus is on DPS
    Really? Those are odd prerequisites.

    By that definition, my Str-based intimitank would be a DPS build when he switches to TWF even though he has Stalwart Defender! By that definition, Dex-based rogues are not DPS build either even though they got stunning DPS.
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  3. #3
    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Really? Those are odd prerequisites.

    By that definition, my Str-based intimitank would be a DPS build when he switches to TWF even though he has Stalwart Defender! By that definition, Dex-based rogues are not DPS build either even though they got stunning DPS.
    Well that is why the question

    A case can definitely be made for dex-based rogues; but with the whole situational argument combined with new raid bosses having fortification; as well as the success of many str-based rogue builds - does the dex rogue still make the cut?

    For the stalwart defender, that actually hits pretty point on to the question I'm probably poorly explaining :P. Assuming he is well-equipped and has the TWF feats - what is really stopping him from being considered a DPS build? The fact that he (might not) have weapon focus bonuses since he has some defensive feats instead? How about the tempest ranger that couldn't fit power attack in but, in all other ways, is as typical of a DPS focused build as it is possible to be? Can a bard or cleric be a DPS build even though it will never be doing quite the damage of a ranger or kensai?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    [...]- what is really stopping him from being considered a DPS build?
    The focus.

    To me, there are only to prerequisites to being a DPS build:
    1. Primarily focused on DPS
    2. DPS within a certain margin (10ish%) of "best stable DPS build"
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  5. #5
    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    The focus.

    To me, there are only to prerequisites to being a DPS build:
    1. Primarily focused on DPS
    2. DPS within a certain margin (10ish%) of "best stable DPS build"
    Cool maybe I should reword the OP a little bit - but within 10% of "best stable" is the kind of non-specific, high abstraction analysis I'm hoping to get some thoughts on.
    Last edited by Samadhi; 07-31-2009 at 12:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    within 10% of "best staple"
    I wrote and meant stable.

    Example of unstable DPS are sneak attacks, elemental damage and favored enemy damage. That is, damage you don't always get. Though, at current end game, I would consider favored enemy damage since nearly all we fight can be covered by FE. Likewise, critical hits could be included in unstable damage or partially unstable damage if we face too many elementals/undeads/constructs or monsters with high fortification.
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    Community Member Alcides's Avatar
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    You also need to qualify the question as to whether or not casters (sorc / wizard) count as DPS.

    As far as the definition of what a DPS class is, you're concerned with the following.
    1. High Damage Per Attack.
    2. Number Of Attacks in a "Round".
    3. High Probability of Connecting with an Attack.

    The reason TWF does more damage than THF is due to extra damage that does not come from Strength or Power Attack. When these secondary damage sources do not add extra scaling damage when using a 2H weapon, they favor a 1H weapon, because you can double dip the extra damage via the off-hand attack chain. Combine this with the fact that there are a multitude of ways to gain iterative attacks, it becomes clear that TWF outdoes THF.

    These secondary damage sources can be summed up as, but not necessarily limited to the following.
    Bard Song
    Divine Favor
    Divine Might
    Divine Power
    Favored Enemy Damage
    Ram's Might
    Sneak Attack Damage
    Weapon Specialization
    Weapon Damage Enhancements

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    Community Member Mindspat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcides View Post
    You also need to qualify the question as to whether or not casters (sorc / wizard) count as DPS[?]
    Casters should be considered "Nukers" as their damage is Burst rather then persistent and extremely situational.
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    Community Member Mithran's Avatar
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    Default asdf

    In my opinion, some arcanes do count as dps specialists, as most melees do, but your emphasis (Borror0 would say 'focus') as an arcane can instead be on crowd control or debuffs, in lieu of dps. Similarly, I have a 14 Ranger/2 Paladin who I consider primarily dps-based and 12 Ranger/3 Paladin/1 Monk who is primarily A/C.
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  10. #10
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    I'd call a build a DPS build if they prioritise abilities/feats/etc that deal melee damage over abilities that heal, control crowds, provide group/raid utility or provide self defense.


    Example:

    A rogue that spends three feats and several build points on improving trapsmithing is a utility build.

    One that put those resources into DPS instead, sacrificing some trapsmithing utility (i.e.e they probably couldn't hit the Cabal Elite trap at level 16) is a DPS build.


    Note that a geared utility build may out-DPS an ungeared DPS build. For instance, if the first rogue had 2 Mineral 2 khopeshes and the second 2 +1 Holy Silver shortswords, the first will probably have the better DPS, until the second one catches up on gear.
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    Community Member Zuldar's Avatar
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    I would say any build capable of killing a mob before said mob kills them back. Obviously, some builds are better then others.
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    Community Member Anthios888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    I'd call a build a DPS build if they prioritise abilities/feats/etc that deal melee damage over abilities that heal, control crowds, provide group/raid utility or provide self defense.

    Note that a geared utility build may out-DPS an ungeared DPS build.
    Agree here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindspat View Post
    Casters should be considered "Nukers" as their damage is Burst rather then persistent and extremely situational.
    Even more accurately, we could say "Casters should be considered Nukers since it is limited by resources and not time which means that they can dish out massive DPS over a short span on time or average DPS over a long period of time."
    Quote Originally Posted by lunaticcat View Post
    Another thought along this line, is what constitutues good dps? 100points a hit? 150? 50? And this would need to be broken down further I think, into sub catagories such as portals, mobs, red's, etc...
    Damage per hit is mieaningless. It's DPS that matters.

    Though, damage per hit has become a good measure of DPS due to low AC, it is not an accurate measure.
    Quote Originally Posted by lunaticcat View Post
    Do you take into effect the rage as stable or unstable?
    Barbarian Rage? It's stable the moment you can maintain it through a dungeon.

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    Community Member hydra_ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Damage per hit is mieaningless. It's DPS that matters.
    Borror, I'd have to disagree with you to an extent there. Damage per hit is a great way of measuring up how much damage you're doing against others of similar build. If I'm a 90 damage per hit on average, I know that it means nothing. If I said, on the other hand, that I'm a THF who deals 90 damage or a regular hit, we'd have an accurate description of his DPS (a bit above average for a barbarian). If I said that he was TWF, I would know that thats incredible damage. DPS is probably the easiest term to use, but if you qualify your Damage per Hit with meaningful build details, then it becomes a useful figure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydra_ex View Post
    Borror, I'd have to disagree with you to an extent there. Damage per hit is a great way of measuring up how much damage you're doing against others of similar build.
    It the current end game, yes it is. I even stated so: "damage per hit has become a good measure of DPS due to low AC"

    However, it's not a good way to look at the DPS output. For example, I have a build that deals 30 damage per hit and then other deals 90 damage per hit. If the first one hits 90% of the time and the other hits 10% of the time, the first one wins even if the second one deals three times more damage per hit.

    To-hit, targeted monster AC and damage per average hit are all necessary variables to know.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Background: I frequently see posters responding on players builds that "that isn't a real DPS build."
    This has less to do with the actual build, and more to do with the the poster you see responding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Background: I frequently see posters responding on players builds that "that isn't a real DPS build."
    this is another way of saying, your DPS sxxks

    or they are just saying, your AC is too high as a real DPS build.


    I think, if you (or see another toon) consistently getting high kill counts in quests, it is a DPS build. So, DPS applies to both end-boss and other mobs.
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    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddoer View Post
    this is another way of saying, your DPS sxxks

    or they are just saying, your AC is too high as a real DPS build.


    I think, if you (or see another toon) consistently getting high kill counts in quests, it is a DPS build. So, DPS applies to both end-boss and other mobs.
    I would definitely disagree with this, as in current end game most mobs are not killed by DPS at all, at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Background: I frequently see posters responding on players builds that "that isn't a real DPS build."

    So how do we define a DPS build/character?
    I have to preface by saying that I don't take this game too seriously -- I am not into accumulating the best possible gear or only making the best possible builds. I try to follow the forums and incorporate the great information found here. But, I never quite succeed in accumulating all the things that some of the posters seem to have.

    Although Leyoni is my signature character, I find that it is easier and more fun for me to play melee types. I have several in various stages of development and some are better than others. I like to experiment with builds and do crazy things (like my warforged cleric 11/wizard 7/monk 2 project). However, mostly I'm a melee character kind of guy.

    IMO DPS, aside from the technical meaning, really comes down to three things: 1) hitting on 2+, 2) confirming crits and 3) getting near maximum damage out of each hit.

    This last item is where it gets a bit tricky. I don't have any max STR characters. So, I never really get maximum damage out of a hit. I also have finesse build characters (working on that AC angle) so I deliberately sacrifice damage for AC. Yet, I do reasonable damage per second*.

    So, for the common player -- not the power guys running elite Shrouds/VoDs/Hounds -- I'd say that if you are a finesse based character whose AC keeps you in the fight longer that you are a DPS build if you are running 22+ STR with buffs/rages/etc and that if you are a STR based character whose AC doesn't let you stick around that long you are a DPS build if your STR with buffs/rages/etc is 30+.

    Mind you, you still have to be hitting on 2+ and confirming your crits.

    Now, when I figure out how to hit 80+ AC on a 30+ STR build....

    *Edit: Reasonable IMO means that I'm able to solo a mob as quickly, or nearly so, as any other melee in the group. I use this because kill count sometimes just means you got in the lucky last blow. Soloing a monster means you don't have any help from anyone. If you can't do that any quicker than I can then our DPS must be pretty much the same. Of course, some people feel that they should not be getting hit while DPSing so my notion will be unfair to them since they can't solo mobs very efficiently due to low AC. I'll grant that they are probably hitting the limits of damage output but they require a very well run group in order to really shine.
    Last edited by Leyoni; 08-06-2009 at 08:21 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    This is purely an imagined discourse but, the reason for posting, is that I want to hear others' thoughts on the matter. Yes, I know TWF is better than THF in current end game. But does that mean that THF is no longer considered a DPS build option? What percentage of the melee population should be considered DPS builds - top 30%? Or just the top 2%?
    I usually consider it relative to the build itself.

    You can make a 'DPS Rogue' or an 'Assassinate Rogue'.

    You can make a 'DPS Fighter' or a 'Tactics Fighter'.

    You can make a 'DPS Sorcerer' or a 'CC/Buff Sorcerer'.

    You can make a 'DPS Paladin' or 'Balanced Paladin'.

    And so on.

    It's more about defining your personal goals for the character, and not how they stand in relation to other characters.

    Now when you start throwing 'Max DPS' and 'Uber DPS' and 'Monster/Exploiter/God' and other silly monikers in front, then you're throwing yourself into the overall DPS comparison.

    Guess I pretty much agree with people that are along these lines:

    Quote Originally Posted by kingfisher
    dps build - a build that focuses on damage. This does not say whether the build is good or not, whether it is high enough dps to be called a successful dps build, or even if it is effective enough to be wanted in party - all of these thing are measurable on a toon-by-toon basis ONLY, because so much of their dps is gear based.

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