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  1. #21
    Community Member twoton's Avatar
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    you also have to look at damage per second and not just look at per swing. Since this game has a active fighting system the number of attacks per second does come into play as well.

    I mean you could have a guy that hits like a two ton truck but swings slow and then have a guy that does about half the amount but swings twice as fast.

    there are 3 types of dpsing builds in the game

    glass cannons: lower hp and low ac but have massive amount of dmg output. I.E. casters and rogues.

    offensive blitz dps: high end hp and low ac. These builds are usually str based rangers. TWF khopesh using ftrs and barbs

    Balanced dpsers: moderate hp and good ac. These builds are usually ranger monk splashes, Pallys and monks or s/b ftrs or pallys.
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Background: I frequently see posters responding on players builds that "that isn't a real DPS build."
    This has less to do with the actual build, and more to do with the the poster you see responding.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    i'd personally put it at 5-10%. anything less than that is not a DPS build. thats the range provided by the PA feat. i mean, how can you call yourself a DPS build when you dun have PA?
    Here's the issue I have with a range as small as 5-10% (not that I have a solution to this issue). Namely, that equipment makes much more of a difference with this narrow of a band. So to use your pure fighter example, that fighter could have chosen every option you enumerated for max damage - but is so poorly equipped that it drops far below the 10% range.

    Meanwhile, a Str-based fully geared tempest ranger, that didn't have the extra feat available for Power Attack, is easily out DPS-ing the fighter and the majority of everyone else. I certainly understand and can agree with the idea of PA being essential to a true DPS build - but at the same time there are builds out there that are top 5% DPS on a server that don't have it.

    Keep the ideas flowing. IMO your point B. is the main thing to tweak with.
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  4. #24
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I wrote and meant stable.

    Example of unstable DPS are sneak attacks, elemental damage and favored enemy damage. That is, damage you don't always get. Though, at current end game, I would consider favored enemy damage since nearly all we fight can be covered by FE. Likewise, critical hits could be included in unstable damage or partially unstable damage if we face too many elementals/undeads/constructs or monsters with high fortification.

    What about Burst DPS? haste boost, DM,DS etc? thats should be counted also.
    For Example my pally can maintian his "burst DPS" for both parts 4 and 5 of the shroud. Or through 80% of the VOD end fight. I always make sure i save 10% of my burst DPS for the last part of the fight where its needed most.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Background: I frequently see posters responding on players builds that "that isn't a real DPS build."
    this is another way of saying, your DPS sxxks

    or they are just saying, your AC is too high as a real DPS build.


    I think, if you (or see another toon) consistently getting high kill counts in quests, it is a DPS build. So, DPS applies to both end-boss and other mobs.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddoer View Post
    this is another way of saying, your DPS sxxks

    or they are just saying, your AC is too high as a real DPS build.


    I think, if you (or see another toon) consistently getting high kill counts in quests, it is a DPS build. So, DPS applies to both end-boss and other mobs.
    I would definitely disagree with this, as in current end game most mobs are not killed by DPS at all, at all.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Here's the issue I have with a range as small as 5-10% (not that I have a solution to this issue). Namely, that equipment makes much more of a difference with this narrow of a band. So to use your pure fighter example, that fighter could have chosen every option you enumerated for max damage - but is so poorly equipped that it drops far below the 10% range.

    Meanwhile, a Str-based fully geared tempest ranger, that didn't have the extra feat available for Power Attack, is easily out DPS-ing the fighter and the majority of everyone else. I certainly understand and can agree with the idea of PA being essential to a true DPS build - but at the same time there are builds out there that are top 5% DPS on a server that don't have it.

    Keep the ideas flowing. IMO your point B. is the main thing to tweak with.
    that is the reason i set items aside. you could compare between 2 toons of the same uber gear set up or 2 toons without gear. this eliminates DPS from items thus only relying on the "build"

    as to str based tempest, next mod FE is +14. lets see how a fighter compares, 3 enhancements = +1 dmg, 2 x weapon spec = +4, 2 x ws enh = +2, kensai = +8 str = +4, kensai weapon = +3. grand total = +14. they come out to be the same. the reason a str based tempest will out dps a str based ftr is due to tempest III stwf like ability. as of mod 8, fighters are sub par due to no PrC thus dps rangers can afford to go without PA and still out dps fighters, not next mod thou

    this is also the reason i separate the different classes. a max DPS barb is very different from a max DPS fighter. the barb can ignore all AC enhancements whereas the fighter might have to maintain a decent AC due to lower hp pool
    If you want to know why...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    What about Burst DPS? haste boost, DM,DS etc? thats should be counted also.
    Burst and stable are not contradictory. Since we play in a known end game, we can estimate how much of DPS X or Y will represent in the grab scheme of things if we are really interested about that or if it matters enough.

    By the way, Divine Sacrifice is not burst DPS and it is stable, too.
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  9. #29
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    Why don't you just look at gfunk's thread or just calculate DPS? All that matters is where you fall on the chart.

    Some people like to calculate it over 5 minutes so you can factor in things like haste boost etc. in a reasonable way. Personally I would probably do something like DPS over 10 minutes which covers time between shrines for pretty much every quest in the game.

    Really not that hard to calculate, look up cforce's attack speed thread, and it's pretty much basic math.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 08-06-2009 at 06:37 AM.

  10. #30
    Community Member Visty's Avatar
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    its kinda easy if you look at the classes

    dps: fighter, barb
    support: rogue, ranger, monk, paladin, bard
    casters: wizard, sorc, cleric, favsoul
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  11. #31
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
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    My Archer=DPS
    Everyone else=in a different party, so don't matter

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Visty View Post
    its kinda easy if you look at the classes

    dps: fighter, barb
    support: rogue, ranger, monk, paladin, bard
    casters: wizard, sorc, cleric, favsoul
    I think all rangers, all rogues and most post-Module 9 paladins will laugh at that chart.

    Oh, and monk don't belong in the support category. That incorrectly suggest they are useful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Visty View Post
    dps: fighter, barb
    My dwarven defender wonders why his class is considered DPS.
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  13. #33
    Community Member Mr_Ed7's Avatar
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    Arrow Great post

    Great post...

    So where is the definition anyway uber-builders?

    First you may want to reiterate that DPS is Damange Per Swing...yes or no?

    Second: The Definition may be : A role a character may play in a party where they are the one doing the most damage to enemy targets via some sort of weapon be it fists, swords, bows etc.

    Typical DPS characters addtionally may have supstantially more hit points and armor class then other characters depending on the character's focus.

    DPS classes typically include the melee or "Fighter" classes such as the Fighter proper, the Barbarian, the Ranger and the Paladin.

    DPS classes also can include the Rogue and the Monk.


    Something along those lines...
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Ed7 View Post
    Great post...

    So where is the definition anyway uber-builders?

    First you may want to reiterate that DPS is Damange Per Swing...yes or no?

    Second: The Definition may be : A role a character may play in a party where they are the one doing the most damage to enemy targets via some sort of weapon be it fists, swords, bows etc.

    Typical DPS characters addtionally may have supstantially more hit points and armor class then other characters depending on the character's focus.

    DPS classes typically include the melee or "Fighter" classes such as the Fighter proper, the Barbarian, the Ranger and the Paladin.

    DPS classes also can include the Rogue and the Monk.

    Something along those lines...
    It is damage per SECOND typically not swing, and usually the best approach is to calculate it assuming equal gear and over a fixed time frame (like over 5 or 10 minutes) this allows you to factor in things with cooldown and limited use like haste boost, smites, etc...

    You can drop the monk from the list ha-ha no Monk build will chart even close to top melee DPS builds.

  15. #35
    Community Member Yargore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    the reason a str based tempest will out dps a str based ftr is due to tempest III stwf like ability.
    Wrong. A STR based tempest will not be able to out-DPS STR based kensai. Especially not if the ranger is pure.

    You forgot to mention 10 x 20 sec 30% haste boost, 4 extra seeker, 1 extra crit range and higher tohit.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samadhi View Post
    Background: I frequently see posters responding on players builds that "that isn't a real DPS build."

    So how do we define a DPS build/character?
    I have to preface by saying that I don't take this game too seriously -- I am not into accumulating the best possible gear or only making the best possible builds. I try to follow the forums and incorporate the great information found here. But, I never quite succeed in accumulating all the things that some of the posters seem to have.

    Although Leyoni is my signature character, I find that it is easier and more fun for me to play melee types. I have several in various stages of development and some are better than others. I like to experiment with builds and do crazy things (like my warforged cleric 11/wizard 7/monk 2 project). However, mostly I'm a melee character kind of guy.

    IMO DPS, aside from the technical meaning, really comes down to three things: 1) hitting on 2+, 2) confirming crits and 3) getting near maximum damage out of each hit.

    This last item is where it gets a bit tricky. I don't have any max STR characters. So, I never really get maximum damage out of a hit. I also have finesse build characters (working on that AC angle) so I deliberately sacrifice damage for AC. Yet, I do reasonable damage per second*.

    So, for the common player -- not the power guys running elite Shrouds/VoDs/Hounds -- I'd say that if you are a finesse based character whose AC keeps you in the fight longer that you are a DPS build if you are running 22+ STR with buffs/rages/etc and that if you are a STR based character whose AC doesn't let you stick around that long you are a DPS build if your STR with buffs/rages/etc is 30+.

    Mind you, you still have to be hitting on 2+ and confirming your crits.

    Now, when I figure out how to hit 80+ AC on a 30+ STR build....

    *Edit: Reasonable IMO means that I'm able to solo a mob as quickly, or nearly so, as any other melee in the group. I use this because kill count sometimes just means you got in the lucky last blow. Soloing a monster means you don't have any help from anyone. If you can't do that any quicker than I can then our DPS must be pretty much the same. Of course, some people feel that they should not be getting hit while DPSing so my notion will be unfair to them since they can't solo mobs very efficiently due to low AC. I'll grant that they are probably hitting the limits of damage output but they require a very well run group in order to really shine.
    Last edited by Leyoni; 08-06-2009 at 08:21 AM.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yargore View Post
    Wrong. A STR based tempest will not be able to out-DPS STR based kensai. Especially not if the ranger is pure.

    You forgot to mention 10 x 20 sec 30% haste boost, 4 extra seeker, 1 extra crit range and higher tohit.
    and i also forgot to mention the loss of FE against non FE mobs etc. sometimes its smarter to look into the context of the discussion. if you look at the last sentence

    this is also the reason i separate the different classes. a max DPS barb is very different from a max DPS fighter. the barb can ignore all AC enhancements whereas the fighter might have to maintain a decent AC due to lower hp pool[
    there is no end to actually compare 2 classes together without setting constants which can marginalise the other abilities
    If you want to know why...

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Ed7 View Post
    Great post...

    So where is the definition anyway uber-builders?

    First you may want to reiterate that DPS is Damange Per Swing...yes or no?

    setting that definition would make thf barbs the top damage dealers which is entirely untrue in current context

    Second: The Definition may be : A role a character may play in a party where they are the one doing the most damage to enemy targets via some sort of weapon be it fists, swords, bows etc.

    Typical DPS characters addtionally may have supstantially more hit points and armor class then other characters depending on the character's focus.

    wrong. in ddo dps often comes with sacrifice to hp or ac. this is unlike the standard mmo where tanks have high hp, ac and huge melee attacks

    DPS classes typically include the melee or "Fighter" classes such as the Fighter proper, the Barbarian, the Ranger and the Paladin.

    DPS classes also can include the Rogue and the Monk.


    Something along those lines...
    this probably is a better idea but in general ddo dps is only concerned with melee and not ranged. for 1, a tempest ranger who alternates between MS and tempest has more dps then either of the fighting styles
    If you want to know why...

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    that is the reason i set items aside. you could compare between 2 toons of the same uber gear set up or 2 toons without gear. this eliminates DPS from items thus only relying on the "build"

    as to str based tempest, next mod FE is +14. lets see how a fighter compares, 3 enhancements = +1 dmg, 2 x weapon spec = +4, 2 x ws enh = +2, kensai = +8 str = +4, kensai weapon = +3. grand total = +14. they come out to be the same. the reason a str based tempest will out dps a str based ftr is due to tempest III stwf like ability. as of mod 8, fighters are sub par due to no PrC thus dps rangers can afford to go without PA and still out dps fighters, not next mod thou

    this is also the reason i separate the different classes. a max DPS barb is very different from a max DPS fighter. the barb can ignore all AC enhancements whereas the fighter might have to maintain a decent AC due to lower hp pool

    I dont agree that fighters need to have a decent AC as mine has over 500HP, and yes a barb might have 600hp raged but its not much different. And next mod they will be killing their self while attacking

  20. #40
    Community Member KingOfCheese's Avatar
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    I use a weird benchmark to think about DPS. I ask myself: if there were 8 clones of this character fighting the pit fiend on Part 4 of the Shroud on norm--how long would it take to get him down. If it is less than one round--uber dps. If it is between 1 and 1.5 rounds, solid DPS. If it is less then 2 rounds--ok DPS. If it is more than 2 rounds--I would not consider this a DPS character (it might become one with better gear, etc.; but it isn't one yet). When I am building a character to be a primary DPS build--I want it to fall into the category of less than one round. If it is a role player/DPS such as a DPS Warchanter or DPS Intim (an intim that can swap to twf or thf), I shoot for less than 2 rounds.
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