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  1. #521
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Its like the pixelated powderkeg of D&D players on the internet.
    Heh...makes me wonder how many people would sign up at a 4e MMO just to say how much 4e sucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  2. #522
    Community Member sainy_matthew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Heh...makes me wonder how many people would sign up at a 4e MMO just to say how much 4e sucks.
    Probably everyone. An then when the accounts all get banned, there'll be like 1 person still playing the game.

  3. #523
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sainy_matthew View Post
    Probably everyone. An then when the accounts all get banned, there'll be like 1 person still playing the game.
    That simple sentence is why I can completely ignore everything you say.....hell I feel like I could tell you if i smacked you with a 4e book it would still hurt as much as an 3e book of equal size you'd deny it just on the grouds that you "think" 3/3.5e is superior....why don't you go ask 2e worshipping players what they think of your 3e.


    SlogUK sums up the "change is bad" phenomenon quite well...albeitwas directed at changes in DDO changes but slight changes in wording and it can apply to anything

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ighlight=thing (This New Thing it is Bad)

    Quote Originally Posted by SlogUK View Post
    Ok I have been playing DDO since God was a baby, and before that I was playing PnP even before Gary Gygax was born. It's always been a source of fun and joy for me, and when I joined this game I thought at the time it was my home. But then they brought this new thing into the game. This new thing is going to completely break the game! In the past I used to do it in the old way, and that was fine. I did it like that, I was fine, and nothing ever went wrong. But then there was this new thing! WHY?

    There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.

    1: The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
    2: The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
    3: It is different.
    4: It is not the same as it was before.
    5: The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
    6: It is new.
    7: I don't like it.

    With all of these factors in mind - and these are just the ones that come to me now, I would like to put forward a petition. Please, please can we stop this new thing now? And in the meantime can I also tell you how qualified I am not to like this new thing. I did that old thing a lot. I was better than anyone in the world at that old thing. I am the master of that old thing. The only master. This is not the reason I dislike this new thing, though. I am the master of this new thing too. Oh no don't get me wrong, I am better at this new thing than any of you, ever, and have been since before I was born. But that old thing was better, and this new thing is bad and wrong.

    Please Devs - take notice of my cries. This new thing is going to make this game into a different game from how it was before. This cannot be allowed to happen. Stop now. You will listen to me, Devs, because we are close personal friends. I have known you all for years. We used to do that old thing together every tuesday lunchtime. One time you said to me, "Slog I will always warn you before I change anything so you can veto it if you don't like it." Well, you didn't. You went behind my back.

    Anyway, I am not complaining. I just want to make it perfectly clear that I am oober, this new thing is bad, and that old thing is the only way that anything should be done.
    Oh and in case you didn't get it....he was being sarcastic
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 03-17-2011 at 11:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  4. #524
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    We might find out, as the new NWN is supposed to be 4e rules.

  5. #525
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    and that simple sentence is why I can completely ignore everything you say.....hell I feel like I could tell you if i smacked you with a 4e book it would still hurt as much as an 3e book of equal size you'd deny it just on the grouds that you "think" 3/3.5e is superior....why don't you go ask 2e worshipping players what they think of your 3e.
    There was no huge fallout between previous editions like there is nowdays with 4e. Sure, there were moaners when things in the system got changed, and each had its die hards and hold outs. Even those who liked 2e over 3e or 3.5 still played 3.5 when campaigns were created for it, and accepted it for what it was / is.

    I have never seen this many die hard fans fall away from D&D due to an edition change. I also have not seen so many previous edition campaigns this long after the launch of a new edition. I dont know if this at least in part has to do with the fact that alot of us Wisconsinites are old TSR nerds who want our daddys records back, but we have never really seen fan base shifting of this magnitude as we are now.

    Semantics bantering aside, it cant be denied that the fan base has shifted, and intentionally, to the MMO base crowd, as this is what this 4e is marketed to. Many of the old school supporters who supported every single other edition through 3.5 regardless of which one we thought was "superior" are off the train, and thats not good for business, no matter which angle you look at it from. Having the MMO crowd at your fingertips looks attractive from a sheer numerical standpoint, until we start looking into other things, like the average length of interest they have in any single game, compared to that same stat for an old school D&D head, and we see that their market doesnt really appear to be that stable.

    30+ year cult status with a smaller but loyal base -vs- Being the in thing for a shorter period of time with a larger market audience who will lose interest and move on. Its like comparing Pink Floyd to The Backstreet Boys. Would you rather be in the top 200 for 25+ years with a solid loyal fan base, or have a quick series of number one hits followed by the next few generations cracking jokes about you, and the ones after that not even knowing who you were?

    This has been bantered back and forth with no one really being convinced of the others stance, but when I look at it from a purely observational perspective, this is what I see.

  6. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    We might find out, as the new NWN is supposed to be 4e rules.
    True but its not really an mmo but I imagine it shouldnt have to much trouble finding a fan base it just wont include me. MY dream game would be world of hackcraft


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  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    There was no huge fallout between previous editions like there is nowdays with 4e. Sure, there were moaners when things in the system got changed, and each had its die hards and hold outs. Even those who liked 2e over 3e or 3.5 still played 3.5 when campaigns were created for it, and accepted it for what it was / is.

    I have never seen this many die hard fans fall away from D&D due to an edition change. I also have not seen so many previous edition campaigns this long after the launch of a new edition. I dont know if this at least in part has to do with the fact that alot of us Wisconsinites are old TSR nerds who want our daddys records back, but we have never really seen fan base shifting of this magnitude as we are now.

    Semantics bantering aside, it cant be denied that the fan base has shifted, and intentionally, to the MMO base crowd, as this is what this 4e is marketed to. Many of the old school supporters who supported every single other edition through 3.5 regardless of which one we thought was "superior" are off the train, and thats not good for business, no matter which angle you look at it from. Having the MMO crowd at your fingertips looks attractive from a sheer numerical standpoint, until we start looking into other things, like the average length of interest they have in any single game, compared to that same stat for an old school D&D head, and we see that their market doesnt really appear to be that stable.

    30+ year cult status with a smaller but loyal base -vs- Being the in thing for a shorter period of time with a larger market audience who will lose interest and move on. Its like comparing Pink Floyd to The Backstreet Boys. Would you rather be in the top 200 for 25+ years with a solid loyal fan base, or have a quick series of number one hits followed by the next few generations cracking jokes about you, and the ones after that not even knowing who you were?

    This has been bantered back and forth with no one really being convinced of the others stance, but when I look at it from a purely observational perspective, this is what I see.
    Very true I thought I would never dump dnd and would play mutiple versions of the game depending on which group I was with at the time but all of my dnd groups have dumped pretty much all versions now one of my friends runs grups(hate the game but will play if someone makes me a character) another runs runequest( its ok) I run HMB myself

    Its not only dnd that did this hero did the samething with their 6th edition of champions its a very differnet game than was before and they kept some people but lost most the old school champs players of course the mmo which only had the name in common with the game didtn help


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  8. #528
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    I can't speak for the whole gaming community, of course, but every single one of my friends, DMs, store vendors, and recurrent players absoutely HATED AD&D changing to 3.0, from the art to the multiclassing (which I like a lot in 3.0) passing through the THAC0 term dissapearing or "melting". Then they hated the 3.5 changes to the magic system in specific. Now they hate 4.0. I see the "This new thing is bad." phenomenon being recurent maybe because of the emotional attachement we create not just with the game rules but with the characters we generate.
    At least, I feel that may be the case in my initial resistance to any changes done to the systems.

    Though in 4.0's case in particular it may be that the new thing is ACTUALLY bad.. I don't see the benefit or appreciate what its been done to casters and the multiclassing system. I still don't get how the rituals stuff work, they used to be spells!
    I can't imagine playing DDO like that. (At will ---> swing your sword) ROTFL

    EDIT-- Wrong Quote.

  9. #529
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    I think 4th edition would make a perfect MMO... but DDO is edition 3.5 and shouldnt' be changed.

    If someone were to make a 4th edition D&D MMO, it should definitely be set in Athas.

    Quote Originally Posted by ddobard1 View Post
    Some days ago i began to read the official books of PnP 4 edition. All the stuff (classes,races,feats,skills,etc) seems awesome. My opinion is that DDO should follow the updates of PnP as close as possible. I would like to hear some opinions about this transition in PnP and the consequences to DDO.

  10. #530
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Yeah I think they could design a game from scratch around 4e, but I dont think trying to change something that was created using 3.5 as a reference, to 4.0 after five years would be practical. I would rather the devs concentrate on making more content and fixing current bugs than trying to change the fundamental ruleset to a different edition.

  11. #531
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    HAI I'm a 4e fan.

    I've played and dm'd several games and had fun! That's really all I expect out of a game.

    I do think that it'd make a horrible mmo. There's a lot of focus on exactly where you're standing and "immediately reacting" to your opponents moves. That works fine in a turn based tabletop game and seems like it'd be awkward as **** in a live real-time game. (I have similar opinions of 3e video games--attacks of opportunity and readied actions didn't translate well, but 4e goes even further along that axis I think.)

    On the other hand, scavenging for a few ideas from 4e and adapting them to DDO seems to be working alright so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Docrailgun
    If someone were to make a 4th edition D&D MMO, it should definitely be set in Athas.
    Everything this doctor says is fact. Bugdead > zombies dwarfs.

  12. #532
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docrailgun View Post
    I think 4th edition would make a perfect MMO... but DDO is edition 3.5 and shouldnt' be changed.

    If someone were to make a 4th edition D&D MMO, it should definitely be set in Athas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Yeah I think they could design a game from scratch around 4e, but I dont think trying to change something that was created using 3.5 as a reference, to 4.0 after five years would be practical. I would rather the devs concentrate on making more content and fixing current bugs than trying to change the fundamental ruleset to a different edition.
    No I don't think DDO should become a 4.0 game and I probably wouldn't leave for DDO2 4e edition either (I like this game) but if you haven't noticed its picked up some ideas from both systems and really while a full conversion to 4e would be pointless and probably csause to many technical (and playerbase) issues they shouldn't ignore 4e entirely (ie 4e H-Elves > 3.5e H-Elves)

    The funny part is people keeping saying that 4e is "The PnP MMO" which is dumb because most of the guys I play 4e with actually LOATHE MMOs...I do to and really only play DDO (and baldur's gate,etc.) to get my DnD Fix between sessions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  13. #533
    Community Member sainy_matthew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    That simple sentence is why I can completely ignore everything you say.....hell I feel like I could tell you if i smacked you with a 4e book it would still hurt as much as an 3e book of equal size you'd deny it just on the grouds that you "think" 3/3.5e is superior....why don't you go ask 2e worshipping players what they think of your 3e.
    I sure do think 3E is better then 4E, but don't for a second think that that means that 3E is perfect. There are a whole heap of things that 3E does very poorly, for example alignments (which i see as completely uneccasary), or the grapple rules & most of Monsters Manual 4 & 5.

    See the thing is i don't hate 4E, becuase i like 3E or 3.5. I hate 4E, becuase it is a very poorly designed system, which was poorly presented, poorly marketed & then poorly executed by DMs & players alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    SlogUK sums up the "change is bad" phenomenon quite well...albeitwas directed at changes in DDO changes but slight changes in wording and it can apply to anything
    i'll assume then that you haven't read through the entire thread, to the section where i said i played 4E for about 15 months, before i quit & i didn't quit because it was different (i play all sorts of systems, so different doesn't phase me), i stopped playing because the game is a grab bag of disassociated mechanics, poorly rationalized to the genre, when any rational is used at all (I still don't understand why a fighter can only attack with his shield 1 per day). Add onto that a focus on combat & a defined attempt to make the DM obsolete & a push for combat at the expense of roleplaying. 4E essentially turned D&D into a board game, with roleplaying elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    We might find out, as the new NWN is supposed to be 4e rules.
    yeah but its going to suck... Not because it'll be 4E, but because its being made by cryptic. Cryptic has made 2 games so far Champions Online & Star Trek Online... Both known around the MMO table as the @#%$$ MMOs since the Myst MMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uska View Post
    MY dream game would be world of hackcraft
    heck yes... KODT for life!

    -M
    Last edited by sainy_matthew; 03-19-2011 at 06:13 AM.

  14. #534
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sainy_matthew View Post

    See the thing is i don't hate 4E, because i like 3E or 3.5. I hate 4E, because it is a very poorly designed system, which was poorly presented, poorly marketed & then poorly executed by DMs & players alike.



    i'll assume then that you haven't read through the entire thread, to the section where i said i played 4E for about 15 months, before i quit & i didn't quit because it was different (i play all sorts of systems, so different doesn't phase me), i stopped playing because the game is a grab bag of disassociated mechanics, poorly rationalized to the genre, when any rational is used at all (I still don't understand why a fighter can only attack with his shield 1 per day). Add onto that a focus on combat & a defined attempt to make the DM obsolete & a push for combat at the expense of roleplaying. 4E essentially turned D&D into a board game, with roleplaying elements.
    Oh I get it see, your DM/Group sucked if you felt that there was too much focus on combat and not enough roleplaying that has NOTHING to do with the edition you can have a dm/campaign that doesn't suit you in any edition. Recently (Just before xmas i think) we had some guy try out a campaign (in 3.5) no one really knew him but we figured what the hell and it ended up being to combat focused and the little roleplaying it has was either really dragging on (nothing was really happening) or it was more like a cutscene from a video game (things happened with no input from the players) so yeah thats an all-encompassing issue not a 4e issue.

    Really I play with a few DMs and most are great but some I prefer not to play their games because they run their campaigns in a way that makes it boring for me (whilst on the other hand others would prefer it that way)

    Oh and you say you hated alignments in 3.5....you know they fixed that for 4e right?

    The green part I just flatout disagree with and I have a feeling you went into 4e thinking "I'm going hate this, I'm going to hate this, I'm going to hate this" before even trying it and guess what you hated it. Again I have a feeling you either only played pre-written campaigns (which always blow) or you didn't play with the right DM/Players....I play with a bunch of roleplayers (including myself) on my table the table beside us are a bunch of min-maxers who value "breaking" the system over playing the story and even the same campaign plays entirely different for each group.

    Quote Originally Posted by sainy_matthew View Post
    yeah but its going to suck... Not because it'll be 4E, but because its being made by cryptic. Cryptic has made 2 games so far Champions Online & Star Trek Online... Both known around the MMO table as the @#%$$ MMOs since the Myst MMO.
    Yeah they don't have the greatest reputation.
    Last edited by Failedlegend; 03-19-2011 at 09:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan
    There is little value in getting into an edition debate; as with anything, we create what we believe works best for DDO.

  15. #535
    Community Member sainy_matthew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Oh I get it see, your DM/Group sucked if you felt that there was too much focus on combat and not enough roleplaying that has NOTHING to do with the edition you can have a dm/campaign that doesn't suit you in any edition. Recently (Just before xmas i think) we had some guy try out a campaign (in 3.5) no one really knew him but we figured what the hell and it ended up being to combat focused and the little roleplaying it has was either really dragging on (nothing was really happening) or it was more like a cutscene from a video game (things happened with no input from the players) so yeah thats an all-encompassing issue not a 4e issue.
    I was in multiple games dude, so you can't blame the edition objectively sucking when compared with other games on the DM. There is a reason why since the height of 3.5, to the height of 4E that the player base went from 6 million to 1.5 million (stats courtesy of WotC), or the fact that a small company like paizo topped WotC 4E numbers last year with Pathfinder (& that didn't even include digital sales, for which Paizo would have owned WotC).

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    Oh and you say you hated alignments in 3.5....you know they fixed that for 4e right?
    they fixed nothing. The fact that the alignment system still exists at all means that 4E fixed nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Failedlegend View Post
    The green part I just flatout disagree with and I have a feeling you went into 4e thinking "I'm going hate this, I'm going to hate this, I'm going to hate this" before even trying it and guess what you hated it. Again I have a feeling you either only played pre-written campaigns (which always blow) or you didn't play with the right DM/Players....I play with a bunch of roleplayers (including myself) on my table the table beside us are a bunch of min-maxers who value "breaking" the system over playing the story and even the same campaign plays entirely different for each group.
    Sorry dude, but the players i played with doesn't change the fact that the system is a poorly defined grab bag of disassociated mechanics poorly rationalized to the genre. My complaint to the system is purely objective, where as you seem to think i must of had some sort of ulterior motive. Truth is 4E as a system is just pretty ****: Its as deep as the shallow end of a kiddy wading pool & almost as immersive. Compare 4E to any well designed game, Eclipse Phase, Mutants and Masterminds, Aces and Eights, Spirit of the Century or Necessary Evil (to name but a few) & your game comes off poorly. The lack of scope or range of 4E is what has systematically killed most of the interest in it.

    -M

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