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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Fastest Class is pure barb:
    40% Enhancement
    50% Sprint
    1.1 Multiplier
    = +109% speed
    Monk10/Ranger10 is very close:
    40% Enhancement
    50% Sprint
    15% Monk
    = +105% speed
    First of all, why do you think barb movement speed is different from others?
    Second of all, the way you "explained" it, it should be:
    1,1*1,4*1,5=+131% movement speed

    Or monk
    1*1,15*1,5*1,4=141,5% Movement speed

    How the hell do you calculate?

    I call "Shade-math" on this one...
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ereshkigal View Post
    Dragonmarked Human Barbarian 1 / Ranger 7 / Monk 12.

    +25% - Least Dragonmark of Passage
    +15% - Longstrider
    +10% - Just for having a level of Barbarian
    +45% - Ranger Sprint Boost III
    +20% - Monk Fast Movement (+5% at levels 3,6,9,12)
    +25% - Striding Item
    +40% - Haste potion or clicky

    + Abundant step at monk 12.

    I don't think you'll find a faster build, of course you'll have to be centered

    EDIT: Also, I imagine steering might be an issue...
    Two things
    A: Alignment issues w/ monk/brb multiclass
    B: Monks get Abundant Step at lvl 14 not 12
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  3. #23
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Teleport wins.

  4. #24
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    wouldn't a 12 rogue (acrobat 2)/ 8 barb (with sprint boost III enhancement) be the fastest?

    I assume the 10% from acrobat rogue and barb stack

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Pretty sure barb fast movement also increases your BASE multiplier to 1.1.. So if you get haste, +40%, you get 110x1.4 = 154%, not 150%.
    Let me see if I understand your math.

    100% is the base speed
    +40% is the increase due to Haste

    This equals 140% expressed by you in your formula as 1.4 (a multiplier). You state that barb movement is actually 1.1 * base speed. So, the entire amount of increase in the case of a barb should be 140% * 1.1. That yields 154% as you indicated.

    So, how did 140% become 150% at the end of your sentence? Shouldn't it read, "154%, not 140%" instead?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    First of all, why do you think barb movement speed is different from others?
    Second of all, the way you "explained" it, it should be:
    1,1*1,4*1,5=+131% movement speed

    Or monk
    1*1,15*1,5*1,4=141,5% Movement speed

    How the hell do you calculate?

    I call "Shade-math" on this one...
    Let's see,

    If Shade is correct about barbarian speed being 1.1 base speed then we can set a barb's normal speed as 110.
    A 40% increase due to haste would be 110 * .4 = 44%.
    A 50% increase due to speed boost would be 110 * .5 = 55%.
    All this added together gives 110 + 44 + 55 = 209
    Take out the original base run speed and the net increase is 109%.

    In the second case the base speed is normal so 100.
    Each percentage increase is simply its own self.
    Add this all together gives 100 + 40 + 50 + 15 = 205%.
    Take out the original base run speed and the net increase is 105%.

    It is essentially a multiplication problem when calculating the individual increases and an addition problem when determining the total stacked values.


  7. #27
    Community Member Korvek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyoni View Post
    Let's see,

    If Shade is correct about barbarian speed being 1.1 base speed then we can set a barb's normal speed as 110.
    Logically speaking, wouldn't the monk's movement speed be treated in the same fashion as the barbarian's, given that they are both feat bonuses and at least probably coded similarly?

    i.e. the, let's say, Monk 10/Ranger 10's, movement speed would be a base normal speed of 115?

    Edit: This assumes Shade is actually correct in his statement.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyoni View Post
    Let's see,

    If Shade is correct about barbarian speed being 1.1 base speed then we can set a barb's normal speed as 110.
    A 40% increase due to haste would be 110 * .4 = 44%.
    A 50% increase due to speed boost would be 110 * .5 = 55%.
    All this added together gives 110 + 44 + 55 = 209
    Take out the original base run speed and the net increase is 109%.

    In the second case the base speed is normal so 100.
    Each percentage increase is simply its own self.
    Add this all together gives 100 + 40 + 50 + 15 = 205%.
    Take out the original base run speed and the net increase is 105%.

    It is essentially a multiplication problem when calculating the individual increases and an addition problem when determining the total stacked values.

    Yea, that's how I got it as well, using the "Shade-math" I mean. But the thing is, why would anyone use different methods? Why not multiply all the time instead of enumerate half and multiply the other half?
    It's inconsistent and overly complicated.

    Either way, there's no reason why barbarian movement speed should add to base, whilst monk do not.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wezlin View Post
    wouldn't a 12 rogue (acrobat 2)/ 8 barb (with sprint boost III enhancement) be the fastest?

    I assume the 10% from acrobat rogue and barb stack
    Yes they stack, and yes that's one of the fastest as I already suggested

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Uncle72 View Post
    Two things
    A: Alignment issues w/ monk/brb multiclass
    B: Monks get Abundant Step at lvl 14 not 12
    Wrong, monk abundants step is a lvl 12 ability.
    Isc

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    Yea, that's how I got it as well, using the "Shade-math" I mean. But the thing is, why would anyone use different methods? Why not multiply all the time instead of enumerate half and multiply the other half?
    It's inconsistent and overly complicated.

    Either way, there's no reason why barbarian movement speed should add to base, whilst monk do not.
    Let's deal with the "inconsistent and overly complicated" piece first.

    At the risk of offending all the math genius readers & posters, using multiplication to find the bonus speed and addition to total them is actually the easiest and most direct method. Not only that, it produces the correct answer.

    The method you use implies that the modifiers do not stack but instead modify the ones previous.

    If haste creates a 40% increase and sprint boost a 50% increase and they stack the total formula is 1+.4+.5=1.9 or 190%. However, if each modifies the other then haste will increase base speed by 40% and sprint boost will modify this new speed by 50%. That formula is 1*1.4*1.5=2.1 or 210%.

    It is possible that the actual formula is more complex than that. The first situation assumes that each increase modifies base running speed. The second assumes that each increase affects current running speed. In fact, depending on which modifier we are discussing, both could apply.

    This could be interesting because the order in which the effects are applied could affect the final result. For example, let's assume that sprint boost affects current running speed while haste affects base running speed.

    If my base speed is 100 sprint boost for 50% of my current speed then my new speed is 150. Toss in a haste for 40% of my base speed and I will be at 190.

    Now, reverse these. My base is 100 and I haste to 140. Now I sprint boost for 50% of my current speed and I'm at 210.

    However, all of this is moot as the base assumption is that each modifier simply stacks (adds on) to the previous one.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuro_zero View Post
    Pretty sure these do not stack. +40% haste will override the other enhancement bonuses to movement.
    correct.


    monks will out distance barbarians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute-Omniscience View Post
    Yea, that's how I got it as well, using the "Shade-math" I mean. But the thing is, why would anyone use different methods? Why not multiply all the time instead of enumerate half and multiply the other half?
    It's inconsistent and overly complicated.

    Either way, there's no reason why barbarian movement speed should add to base, whilst monk do not.
    Alright, now let's look at you last statement.

    Yes, there is a reason to add barbarian movement to base. It is exactly the reason I outlined in the previous post.

    By increasing the value of the base before making the calculation for the modifiers you get a higher result.

    If barbarian speed increase of 10% is just a stackable value then a barb with haste and sprint boost would run at 200% -- 100 base + 10 barb + 40 haste + 50 sprint boost = 200. By making the base higher the result changes to this -- 110 base (because barb) + 44 haste + 55 sprint boost = 209. That is a 9% speed difference by changing the base running speed.

  13. #33
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    All of this is guessing how these things really stack. Find the right quest to do a direct point to point race and test....
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  14. #34
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    dunno about stacking or not, but my 9mnk/6rgr/1rog (sprint boost I) and my 10brb/6rgr (sprint boost II) both have steering issues sometimes in a laggy marketplace with a pendant of time
    -=]ArchAngels[=-

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyoni View Post
    Let's deal with the "inconsistent and overly complicated" piece first.

    At the risk of offending all the math genius readers & posters, using multiplication to find the bonus speed and addition to total them is actually the easiest and most direct method. Not only that, it produces the correct answer.

    The method you use implies that the modifiers do not stack but instead modify the ones previous.

    If haste creates a 40% increase and sprint boost a 50% increase and they stack the total formula is 1+.4+.5=1.9 or 190%. However, if each modifies the other then haste will increase base speed by 40% and sprint boost will modify this new speed by 50%. That formula is 1*1.4*1.5=2.1 or 210%.

    It is possible that the actual formula is more complex than that. The first situation assumes that each increase modifies base running speed. The second assumes that each increase affects current running speed. In fact, depending on which modifier we are discussing, both could apply.

    This could be interesting because the order in which the effects are applied could affect the final result. For example, let's assume that sprint boost affects current running speed while haste affects base running speed.

    If my base speed is 100 sprint boost for 50% of my current speed then my new speed is 150. Toss in a haste for 40% of my base speed and I will be at 190.

    Now, reverse these. My base is 100 and I haste to 140. Now I sprint boost for 50% of my current speed and I'm at 210.

    However, all of this is moot as the base assumption is that each modifier simply stacks (adds on) to the previous one.
    Enumeration is the easiet one and the one I would use. As you have described 1+0,4+0,5 for spring boost and haste. But as healing amplification (a similar senario) is 1*1,4*1,5 I am assuming it is the same for this.
    Or it could be the "overly complicated" ie:
    Base = 1,0
    Haste = base*1,4
    Sprint = base*1,5
    etc

    Total = base+haste+sprint+etc.

    Meaning that if base is different the end result is different, same as for the multiplication one.
    But seeing as other similar calculations do not work this way (ie healing amp) this does not seem like they've done it.

    Bottom line though, all these are pretty accurate assumptions, both yours and mine. But saying that barb gets their bonus to BASE is just plain bias. There is nothing pointing out that barbarian movement speed should be counted to the base when Monk is said to be not.
    If barb is, monk is; that's how I see it. Well till someone actually test it anways.
    Last edited by Absolute-Omniscience; 07-29-2009 at 04:30 PM.
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  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leyoni View Post
    Alright, now let's look at you last statement.

    Yes, there is a reason to add barbarian movement to base. It is exactly the reason I outlined in the previous post.

    By increasing the value of the base before making the calculation for the modifiers you get a higher result.

    If barbarian speed increase of 10% is just a stackable value then a barb with haste and sprint boost would run at 200% -- 100 base + 10 barb + 40 haste + 50 sprint boost = 200. By making the base higher the result changes to this -- 110 base (because barb) + 44 haste + 55 sprint boost = 209. That is a 9% speed difference by changing the base running speed.
    I know what happens if it's added to the base. But there is nothing saying that it SHOULD be added to the base.
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  17. #37
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    The difference is my post and math and others posted is here is shown in this line here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade
    I've personally tested all of this except the Monk fast movement
    Call it "Shade-math" if you want. I'll call it an accurate answer. I don't do made up math like other people. I give accurate answers based on my own testing.

    I've played Barbarians since beta, I know all there is to know about them. Tested every facet and answered conutless questions. I don't recall when I've ever been wrong when it comes to Barbs.

    If your really a doubter of my knowledge - test it for yourself. It's quite easy to test.

    As i've said very clearly - Barbarian fast movement is completely different from all other movement speed modifiers. It is a multipler, while no other area. And it applies ALWAYS, even while flying - something which no others do.

    One very easy test is the reaver raid.
    Take a monk, acrobat rogue, or anyone and fly in a straight line next to a Barbarian. Note who pulls ahead.

    For run speed, take a level6 monk (should be +10% movement) and any lvl Barbarian.. Give them both haste and run alongside each other.. Monk speed will be 150%, barb willl be 140% x1.1 = 154%.. Barb will pull ahead slightly.

    Why is it different? Who knows. Lots of stuff in DDO is calculated strangely. This is just one example.

  18. #38
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    I think shade is right here.... somewhat...
    Barb speed does add to base run speed, then all other boosts are added/multiplier on top.

    It doesnt say anywhere that monk speed adds to base as well (although i think it does)

    If monk speed does not add to base, then the barb is faster... untill the monk adds abundant step
    Last edited by Monkey_Archer; 07-29-2009 at 07:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post

    As i've said very clearly - Barbarian fast movement is completely different from all other movement speed modifiers. It is a multipler, while no other area. And it applies ALWAYS, even while flying - something which no others do.

    One very easy test is the reaver raid.
    Take a monk, acrobat rogue, or anyone and fly in a straight line next to a Barbarian. Note who pulls ahead.
    .
    The problem with your flight test is flight speed is based on your swim skill. Chances are, your barbarian has higher strength and hence higher swim, not necessarily anything to do with the base movement speed.
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  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    I don't recall when I've ever been wrong when it comes to Barbs.
    You mean like always?
    Anyone recall what was it, oh right, 800 dps with your THF dwarven barb
    Oh and maybe, "barbs have the highest dps".

    I have a slight problem believing you, like a lot of people. However, if anyone else would care to check it up and post I'd take their word for it.

    Either way, as Monkey-Archer said, we do not know if monk adds to base as well, or even if barb does, and until we know...

    And even if barb adds to base, and monk does not, the 12monk/8 ranger is still the best runner, abudant step, 45% sprint boost and 20% passive movement speed.
    Last edited by Absolute-Omniscience; 07-29-2009 at 07:48 PM.
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