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  1. #1
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    Default give enhancment to the Arcane caster not focused on numeric damage

    There is lots of Enhancement for the Sorcerer focused on numeric damage in force, frost, electric, fire or acid damage (or in repair).
    But there are so few Enhancement for the Sorcerer focused on other Schools (then evocation and conjugation) that you will have no usefull Enhancement at all some levels.

    A sugestion is that you give Enhancement for the Sorcerer/Wizard that are focused on buff, CC and/or instant kill spells.

    Ex below:

    Manipulation Enchantment I
    Enchantment spells with durations last additional 10% longer. (making it 120% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 1 ap.
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard class level 1
    Manipulation Enchantment II
    Enchantment spells with durations last additional 10% longer, bringing the total increase to 20% (making it 140% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 2 ap
    Requires All of: Manipulation Enchantment I
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard class level 4
    Manipulation Enchantment III
    Enchantment spells with durations last additional 10% longer, bringing the total increase to 30%. (making it 160% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 3 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Enchantment II
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard class level 6
    Manipulation Enchantment IV
    Enchantment spells with durations last additional 10% longer, bringing the total increase to 40%. (making it 180% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 4 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Enchantment II
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard class level 8

    Improve Enchantment I
    You Enchantment get harder to restist increasing the DC with 1 (don't stack with items).
    Ap cost 2 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Enchantment I, Spell Focus: Enchantment
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard class level 1

    Improve Enchantment II
    Your spells from the Enchantment school of magic are harder to resist, receiving a +1 bonus on save DCs (stack with items).
    Ap cost 4 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Enchantment III, Improve Enchantment I, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard class level 7

    Improve Enchantment III
    Your spells from the Enchantment school of magic are harder to resist, receiving a +2 bonus on save DCs (stack with items).
    Ap cost 3 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Enchantment IV, Improve Enchantment II, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard class level 13



    Manipulation Necromancy I
    Necromancy spells with durations last additional 10% longer. (making it 120% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 1 ap.
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard class level 1
    Manipulation Necromancy II
    Necromancy spells with durations last additional 10% longer, bringing the total increase to 20% (making it 140% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 2 ap
    Requires All of: Manipulation Necromancy I
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard class level 4
    Manipulation Necromancy III
    Necromancy spells with durations last additional 10% longer, bringing the total increase to 30%. (making it 160% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 3 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Necromancy II
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard class level 6
    Manipulation Necromancy IV
    Necromancy spells with durations last additional 10% longer, bringing the total increase to 40%. (making it 180% longer when extend is on).
    AP cost 4 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Necromancy II
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard class level 8

    Improve Necromancy I
    You Necromancy get harder to restist increasing the DC with 1 (don't stack with items).
    Ap cost 2 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Necromancy I, Spell Focus: Necromancy
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard class level 1

    Improve Necromancy II
    Your spells from the Necromancy school of magic are harder to resist, receiving a +1 bonus on save DCs (stack with items).
    Ap cost 4 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Necromancy III, Improve Necromancy I, Spell Focus: Necromancy , Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard class level 7

    Improve Enchantment III
    Your spells from the Necromancy school of magic are harder to resist, receiving a +2 bonus on save DCs (stack with items).
    Ap cost 3 ap.
    Requires All of: Manipulation Necromancy IV, Improve Necromancy II, Spell Focus: Necromancy , Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
    Available to Sorcerer/Wizard class level 13

    ____
    The same Enchantment should be available to Sorcerer/Wizard and to relevants schools (eg Enchantment) to Bards.

    DDO EU thread about the same subject
    Last edited by Favis; 07-04-2009 at 01:25 PM. Reason: change the sugestion so it get in smaller steps + make more clear sugestion cover Wizard also

  2. #2
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    split them, drop the cost, and don't require extend.

    One line would extend the spells from that school.
    1 ap = +xx%
    2 ap = +xx%
    3 ap = +xx% duration

    Second line boosts DC. I liked your pre's.
    1 ap = +1 DC, requires: SF & 1st level of the extend line
    2 ap = +2 DC, requires: SF & 2nd level of the extend line
    3 ap = +3 DC, requires: SF, GSF, & 3rd level of extend line.

    These could apply to any school of magic. The feat and AP cost would prevent people from loading up on all of them.

    Overall, I like the idea. I don't know how this stacks with Asp's current thread about specialization, but I'm up for more options.
    /sigh

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    ...
    drop the cost,
    ...

    Second line boosts DC. I liked your pre's.
    1 ap = +1 DC, requires: SF & 1st level of the extend line
    2 ap = +2 DC, requires: SF & 2nd level of the extend line
    3 ap = +3 DC, requires: SF, GSF, & 3rd level of extend line.

    These could apply to any school of magic.
    I like to elaborate why I made them so expensive (in ap).

    I did compare to the enhancment that improve Improved Spell Penetration.


    Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration I
    Usage: Passive
    Cost: 2 action points
    Spent: 14 action points
    Available to Sorcerer class level 5
    You add +1 to your level when attempting to overcome an enemy's spell resistance.

    Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration II
    Usage: Passive
    Cost: 4 action points
    Spent: 28 action points
    Requires All of: Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration I
    Available to Sorcerer class level 9
    You add +2 to your level when attempting to overcome an enemy's SR.

    Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration III
    Usage: Passive
    Cost: 6 action points
    Spent: 42 action points
    Requires All of: Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration II
    Available to Sorcerer class level 13
    You add +3 to your level when attempting to overcome an enemy's SR.

    And then I looked at the feat spellfocus vs Spell Penetration
    Spell focus is as valueble as as You add +2 to your level when attempting to overcome an enemy's SR.
    So following that (and asuming that the Sorcerer Improved Spell Penetration II has the right cost) the ap for +1 DC in one school should be 6 ap. And the ap for DC +2 in one school should be 14 more ap (asuming the cost scale the same way as Improved Spell Penetration x. Eg Improved Spell Penetration IV if it existed should have costed 8ap).
    This gives a total cost of 20 ap for reaching +2 DC.

    In me example above I lovered the cost to 4 + 5 + 6 = 15 ap.
    The reason for lovering the cost was that you needed to take other enchanmtent first and even more important that you needed the feat.

    Mabe my sugestion was a bit to expensive ...

    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post

    The feat and AP cost would prevent people from loading up on all of them.
    The feat is the most importent limitation for Sorcerer.
    For a Sorcerer that are not focused on numeric damage (or repair or pure buffing) I think it's natural to take the following feats: highten, extend, spellpenetration, improve spell penetration. Personaly I would also take Enlarge. That leaves 3 more feats to play with (asuming none-human).

    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    Overall, I like the idea.
    nice

    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post

    I don't know how this stacks with Asp's current thread about specialization, but I'm up for more options.
    As I see it "stacks" well with Asp's idé on how to implement Wizards school specilization.
    It target diffrent problem.

    Asp's idé about Wizards school specilization target the that the core rules in D&D are not implemented and gives - from my point of view - a good sugestion how to do that (what would improve the fun playing wizard).


    The basic problem I like to solve with the sugestion in this thread is that you don't have any enhancemt to choice from that effect your spell if you play a Sorcerer that don't pick numeric damage spells (or repair) - eg fire, frost, electric, acid or force damage ( conjugation evocation schools).
    Bye solving that problem Wizards would get more enhancment to pick from and that would also be good.
    Last edited by Favis; 06-19-2009 at 04:05 AM. Reason: spelling

  4. #4
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    You do realize that in your concept, extend is a defacto pre-req, right?

    The first three levels are useless without it.

    Also, on the cost side:

    1. you concept adds up to 21 AP for the line. That is a huge investment considering 2 required feats (and a third if you want to use the extend portion.
    2. consider halfing cunning and guile. They work together like I proposed above and run on a 1, 2, 3, 4 ap scale. I think following this would be a better technical implementation.
    3. drop the requirement for the extend spell to get extended spells in the chosen class.
    4. If the 12 AP I suggested are too few, then raise the DC line to 2, 4, 6 and leave the extend line alone (since the DC line is the more powerful side.) This totals 18 and will be plenty to make sure people don't load up on multiple schools.
    5. We can expect 3-4 levels worth of AP with the mod. So between 12 and 16 AP (and we only get 16 more if they let us get the four past level 20). People will have to drop some current enhancements to pick this stuff up. Which is good, but lets not go crazy on the cost.

    /sigh

  5. #5
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    Default It's been a constant suggestion

    I'm afraid I've been trying to get them to do this for years now.

    Necromancy, enchantment, illusion, conjuration, etc. all provide excellent alternatives to the dps route that they want us to take, and it's annoying that I have to take firewall and the associated enhancements to feel effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    ...
    Also, on the cost side:

    1. you concept adds up to 21 AP for the line. That is a huge investment considering 2 required feats (and a third if you want to use the extend portion.
    2. consider halfing cunning and guile. They work together like I proposed above and run on a 1, 2, 3, 4 ap scale. I think following this would be a better technical implementation.
    ...
    4. If the 12 AP I suggested are too few, then raise the DC line to 2, 4, 6 and leave the extend line alone (since the DC line is the more powerful side.) This totals 18 and will be plenty to make sure people don't load up on multiple schools.
    5. We can expect 3-4 levels worth of AP with the mod. So between 12 and 16 AP (and we only get 16 more if they let us get the four past level 20). People will have to drop some current enhancements to pick this stuff up. Which is good, but lets not go crazy on the cost.

    About the cost. I'm comparing to the Sorcerer focused on numeric damage in fire/cold, electric/acid or force/repair.

    Elemental Manipulation IV
    total ap cost = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 ap
    total increase of 40% to the damage of your fire and cold spells.

    Sorcerer Lineage of Elements III
    total ap cost = 1 + 2 + 3 = 6 ap
    Grants a 9% chance for fire and cold spells to generate a critical hit for 1.5 times normal damage

    Sorcerer Lineage of Deadly Elements III
    total ap cost = 1 + 2 + 3 = 6 ap
    Your fire and cold spell critical multipliers are increased by an additional 0.25, bringing your base critical multiplier for these spells to 2.25.

    This bring up the the ap that you can invest in fire and cold spells to 10 + 6 + 6 = 22 ap

    The purpus of my sugestion is to make it possible for the Sorcerer focuse on enchantment or necromancy etc to make the same ap investment in there spec.

    I like your sugestion about making smaller steps (If I got 1, 2, 3, 4 ap scale right ). As it feels a bit hard to invest more then 4 ap to ge a increase. And that is a weakness of my original sugestion (compare to the fire/cold investment line).
    I try to modifie my original post.

  7. #7
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Your suggestion presumes Turbines WANTS anything other than 'blasty' sorcs playing.

    Most monsters are immune to more and more spells and 'cc' anyway.

    Turbine likes blasty sorcs - and not much else apparently.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Your suggestion presumes Turbines WANTS anything other than 'blasty' sorcs playing.
    yes
    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Most monsters are immune to more and more spells and 'cc' anyway.

    Turbine likes blasty sorcs - and not much else apparently.
    It feels like such a waist with the greate number of options the exist in D&D 3.5 to only support so few of the Schools ...

  9. #9
    Community Member Pyromaniac's Avatar
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    Sorry - you will make your arcane caster a cookie-cutter build. That's the plan for DDO, no upsetting the plan.
    Thanks for the long time forum user purge of Aug '10 (Sarcasm for those who don't get it)

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Favis View Post

    A sugestion is that you give Enhancement for the Sorcerer that are focused on buff, CC and/or instant kill spells.
    Sorry know your class before you roll it. DnD (not DDO but DnD) has decided that a sorc is DPS (striker) and that a wiz is a CC/insta/buff (controller)
    Wiz and Sorc are no longer the same main type of class. If ddo chages them it will be more tword their seperate roles not more tword each others roles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    *pokes the patch with a stick* get out there you,
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    We were pretty up front that the twf update was going to be a nerf regardless of lag or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadFloyd View Post
    Um, I'm almost afraid to ask, but exactly just what is 'sneak humping'?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCalico View Post
    Sorry know your class before you roll it. DnD (not DDO but DnD) has decided that a sorc is DPS (striker) and that a wiz is a CC/insta/buff (controller)
    Wiz and Sorc are no longer the same main type of class. If ddo chages them it will be more tword their seperate roles not more tword each others roles.
    So you think that Sorcerer will lose his AoE DPS and become more of a single target damage (4th_editions striker)?
    And that Wizard will get higher AoE DPS and CC(4th_edition Controller)?
    Personaly I think it would be a mistake if they change the rule from the 3.5 rule set to the 4 rule (a bit besides the point but that would also destry the multiclassing in DDO as we know it) even if it's not impossible.
    How ever as long as they are build on the 3.5 rule set I think they should support the versilty.
    Last edited by Favis; 07-03-2009 at 11:58 AM.

  12. #12
    Community Member WeaselKing's Avatar
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    Its simple roll a wizzie and get +2 to DC's for all spells and a sp use reduction on metamagics at capstone. XD
    Quote Originally Posted by Milamber69 View Post
    Please forgive my personal attack, I was high on Platypus Venom at the time.

  13. #13
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    And yet, not even the CC wizard in DDO has any enhancements for upping the ability that they have in any of the separate schools. Frankly, both wizards and sorcs are supposed to be damage in this game. And it stinks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaselKing View Post
    Its simple roll a wizzie and get +2 to DC's for all spells and a sp use reduction on metamagics at capstone. XD
    I have edited my original post to show that it cover arcane casters in general (not just Sorcerer).
    The only diffrence in avaleble enhancment not focused on numeric damage for Wizard vs Sorcerer is the capstone that you just wrote about.

  15. #15
    Bwest Fwiends Memnir's Avatar
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    Since launch there have been suggestions like this, and the end result has always been the same...



    Player: Can we change some things to make CC, Charms, and Summoning more... better?
    Turbine: Roll a Sorcerer.
    Player: But, there are so many underused spells - it seems a shame to le-
    Turbine: No. Don't think outside the box. The Sorcerer box.
    Player: But I-
    Turbine: GET BACK IN THE BOX!



    Player:





    And so it goes.
    53461

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Memnir View Post
    Since launch there have been suggestions like this, and the end result has always been the same...

    Player: Can we change some things to make CC, Charms, and Summoning more... better?
    Turbine: Roll a Sorcerer.
    Player: But, there are so many underused spells - it seems a shame to le-
    Turbine: No. Don't think outside the box. The Sorcerer box.
    Player: But I-
    Turbine: GET BACK IN THE BOX!
    .
    Mabe the prE will include some boast for CC, Charms and Summoning but there is no indication of it right now.
    But it's at least possible that the pale master PrE could include boast of spells that are not damage dealing.

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