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  1. #21
    Community Member Dark-Star's Avatar
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    If you are really set on pure melee dps, then go for broke and change your stats to take advantage of Divine Might.

    Something like this:

    S 16 +3 tome +6 item/DP + 5 level ups = 30
    D 15 +2 tome +6 item = 21
    C 12 +2 tome +6 item = 20
    I 10 +2 tome = 12
    W 8 +3 tome +3 enh +6 item = 20
    Ch 17 +3 tome = 20 (Divine Might 4)


    This is assuming that +3 tomes will drop unbound next Mod (a pretty safe bet). If you are not going for a decent DC anyway, make your wisdom score your dump stat, using mana for heals and buffs. Divine Might 4 is equal to +16 str.

    Go dual rapiers for the +2 to damage/to hit from racial enhancements and the free proficiency.

    Total damage modifier:
    5 weapon
    10 str
    1 rage pot
    3 DF
    8 DM
    2 racial enh
    5 PA
    +34 self buffed
    8 bard song
    +42 raid buffed

    ...Not too shabby for a pure cleric.

    Skill points into concentration and balance.

    Feats:
    TWF
    ITWF
    GTWF
    Icrit (swap to Maximize after you make two Min2 rapiers)
    PA
    Quicken
    Extend

    As someone with four capped clerics, three of them melee oriented, I'll echo the others' sentiment: a true battle cleric heals and fights. Quicken with mass cure x is usually plenty. Not doing so is a quick trip to the black list on your server. Get a torc, a few con op items, and go to town.
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  2. #22

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    I hate telling people this because there are far too many khopesh users out there already, but for DPS purposes this build with dual khopeshes and no power attack will out damage the same build with dual rapiers and power attack versus any enemies with over 22 AC by a difference of 20-50+ points.

    So if you want to really maximize DPS, skip PA and get the khopesh.

  3. #23
    Community Member Demoyn's Avatar
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    I'd suggest trying to increase your constitution more. You'll need the extra hit points since you'll be the only person in your group.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demoyn View Post
    I'd suggest trying to increase your constitution more. You'll need the extra hit points since you'll be the only person in your group.
    LOL

    He'll be fine. Just don't think you are a tank. Clean up trash, off tank (maybe as your ac is pretty low), and flank whenever necessary. Just remember to buff people and throw out heals to ANYONE who needs them when they need them! The ability to cast divine healing spells is an ability that should not be squandered or hoarded. If you were the only person who could fly a plane, would you be sitting in the back lounging or up in the cockpit flying?

  5. #25
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettoGenius View Post
    I hate telling people this because there are far too many khopesh users out there already, but for DPS purposes this build with dual khopeshes and no power attack will out damage the same build with dual rapiers and power attack versus any enemies with over 22 AC by a difference of 20-50+ points.

    So if you want to really maximize DPS, skip PA and get the khopesh.
    hmm. As an elf or drow with pa and racial weapon enhancements that is +7 to damage with each hand. A khopesh only gives 2 more crits over a 20 die roll i.e. 17-20 x3 = 8 crit vs. rapier 15-20 x2 = 6. The knopesh will undeniably do less damage even if mobs or bosses have 0 fortification in this instance. Assuming the cleric does not have problems hitting with PA on.

    Edit: Dark-Star's numbers show that pa and racial weapons would equal 16% of the character's damage without outside buffs. The Khopesh's crit extra range does not make up for a 16% damage loss.
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 05-15-2009 at 01:43 PM.
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  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    Edit: Dark-Star's numbers show that pa and racial weapons would equal 16% of the character's damage without outside buffs. The Khopesh's crit extra range does not make up for a 16% damage loss.
    I was using this tool to calculate. Its old but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in terms of calculations there.

    I must have missed something. Where is the 16% coming from? Isnt the max racial bonus for rapiers +2 damage? So khopesh is 1d8 + x(str modifier) vs rapier 1d6 + x +2 ... the difference of the average always being 1 point of damage in favor of the rapier. I guess that's without PA.

  7. #27
    Community Member Dark-Star's Avatar
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    Drow w/ rapier:

    4.5 weapon + ((42+37.5/2)str) = 44.25 average hit
    (44.25 + 6 bloodstone) x 2 = 100.5 average crit
    (44.25 x .7) + (100.5 x .3) = 61.125 average hit

    Drow w/ Khopesh:

    5.5 weapon + ((35+32.5)/2)str) = 39.25 average hit
    (39.25 + 6 bloodstone) x3 = 135.75 average crit
    (39.25 .8) + (135.75 x .2) = 58.55

    On a typical Min2 weapon the holy and slicing remain constants, the acid is not applicable on boss fights of note.

    It's close, but the rapier is superior in DPS on this build, though the khopesh will have a +3 to hit advantage which on certain mobs may close the gap.
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  8. #28
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettoGenius View Post
    I was using this tool to calculate. Its old but I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in terms of calculations there.

    I must have missed something. Where is the 16% coming from? Isnt the max racial bonus for rapiers +2 damage? So khopesh is 1d8 + x(str modifier) vs rapier 1d6 + x +2 ... the difference of the average always being 1 point of damage in favor of the rapier. I guess that's without PA.
    Dark-Star's numbers put the dps for this character at a total of 42 (this is with bard songs which I must add is pro-khopesh by the way). The racial damage enhancement and PA = 7. 7 is 1/6 of 42 which = 16%. The khopesh adds 1 base damage and two more potential criticals which does not make up 16%. The other issue which you gloss over is fortification which undead, constructs, and pit fiends apparently have. More creatures could very well have fortification in the future. If crittable damage continues to go up and we continue to see very few mobs with fortification then eventually you will be correct and the khopesh > PA/favored racial weapon for this character.
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  9. #29

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    That should be the drow w/ rapier and PA correct? I see the difference of 42 vs 35 in the calculations now.

    So is that tool I posted accurate or are their calculations off in some way? Because the graph heavily favors the khopesh.

    Edit: Discovered my mistake, forgot to click the TWF box for the rapiers. This graph is much more accurate.
    Last edited by ghettoGenius; 05-15-2009 at 02:44 PM.

  10. #30
    Community Member Dark-Star's Avatar
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    That tool has many errors, it's old and out of date.

    Full gtwf attack chain = 10 attacks, not 8.

    You took -6 to hit off of the rapier, not sure why. -2 twf, -2 non-light off hand. The knop is another -4 unless you take the prof.

    Anyway, the damage numbers I posted will be close to accurate.
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  11. #31

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    Ah. Thanks for the help in understanding this everyone. I haven't really sat down and looked at the melee damage in much detail for some time. That tool was made back when lvl 12 was the cap I believe which would account for the less than 10 attack sequence. Plus is was modified from a NWN tool he had made previously. Here is his DDO specific tool, though I believe it too is outdated:

    http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo

    Can anyone recommend a fairly accurate and current DDO melee damage calculator?

  12. #32
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    A battle cleric that doesnt heal other party members might as well roll a different class.

    I have 2 level 16 battle clerics now. Fun yes, versatile generally yes, but the point of a battle cleric is that it can do more than one thing, it can fight/cast/and heal. Which means you have to spend part of your time healing.

    But every single one of my melee characters (ranger/ftr/pally/ftr mix) outdamages the battle cleric by a fair bit.

    So - your forming a raid. You need a dps and a cleric. Player X tries to join with a battle cleric - you dont know them yet, so dont know how bad they suck, or if they are actually good. You need a cleric, because the other 10 people need healing in the raid 99% of the time - and thats what clerics do best. If the guy sucks as a cleric you will then instead need two clerics. Which means you have a melee that is weaker than a 'real melee', and still have to look for a cleric.

    Or the cleric is good, can fight AND heal people, and doesnt whine about healing other people - so you take the cleric and a melee - and maybe healing gets tight sometimes but the extra dps makes up for it.

    No bard or paladin can mass heal with devotion/empowered healing/maximize and come anywhere near the healing power of a cleric. So yeah whatever else you do you better be healing too. if you cant do both dont play a battle cleric - or be ready to either solo a lot or only get into the bad pugs that dont know any better.

    The only way your going to get into most raids is if the leader already knows you dont suck.

    Battle clerics are fun, have lots of cool spells - and with a decent wisdom can actually land them too. Gimping wisdom and say 3 dc on attack spells(or 4 or 5) for an extra +1 to hit and damage is a massive waste of spell power. (hmm I can do +1 damage...or I can instead Command, Destruct, Cometfall, Hold, Banish monsters from a distance - 1 shot 1 kill....)

    But again - if you dont plan on healing other people - roll a ranger or something.
    Last edited by Riggs; 05-16-2009 at 07:31 PM.

  13. #33
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    @Riggs

    The issue you describe only arises if a "selfhealing Fighter on Cleric-basis" applies for a group which is looking for a Healer.

    if the group has a healer (could also theoretically be a Halfling dragonmarked bard, besides the typical Cleric Healbot. its a function, not purely dependant on class levels) a "Battlecleric selfhealer-1st" will take healing demand off from the dedicated healer, being effectively selfsufficient. For the price of some DPS potential.
    These builds are to me like defensive DEX builds. they need less Healer attention, but also deal less DPS. One because of good AC, the other because he does it himself. Same result, other way of reaching it.
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  14. #34
    Community Member Demoyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    if the group has a healer (could also theoretically be a Halfling dragonmarked bard, besides the typical Cleric Healbot. its a function, not purely dependant on class levels) a "Battlecleric selfhealer-1st" will take healing demand off from the dedicated healer, being effectively selfsufficient. For the price of some DPS potential.
    These builds are to me like defensive DEX builds. they need less Healer attention, but also deal less DPS. One because of good AC, the other because he does it himself. Same result, other way of reaching it.
    That's fine for raids, but that doesn't work very well in a 6-man group. In smaller groups your individual DPS is more important and, with few exceptions, the healers don't get overtaxed to begin with.

  15. #35
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctus View Post
    @Riggs

    The issue you describe only arises if a "selfhealing Fighter on Cleric-basis" applies for a group which is looking for a Healer.

    if the group has a healer (could also theoretically be a Halfling dragonmarked bard, besides the typical Cleric Healbot. its a function, not purely dependant on class levels) a "Battlecleric selfhealer-1st" will take healing demand off from the dedicated healer, being effectively selfsufficient. For the price of some DPS potential.
    These builds are to me like defensive DEX builds. they need less Healer attention, but also deal less DPS. One because of good AC, the other because he does it himself. Same result, other way of reaching it.
    Not too many halfling dragonmarked bards around for one. 3 feats for a few heals is a big bite out of the 6 feats you get.

    Bards generally dont have empowered healing, maximize, and 3 different mass heals to toss out - in a raid a couple extra heals from a dragonmark will be pretty low on the healing power compared to a cleric.

    And im not sure if you were trying to refute a point with a "Battlecleric selfhealer-1st" will take healing demand off from the dedicated healer, being effectively selfsufficient. For the price of some DPS potential."....since it presumes a) that you have a dedicated healer (when people post for a cleric it usually means they are LOOKING for one), and b) the dps is less than a dedicated melee, especially if you spend half the time self healing instead of fighting. Like my low ac battle cleric turned out to be doing which made him fairly gimpy. (Who has since been replaced by a high ac battle cleric)

    And also - generally people posting for say the Shroud want about 2 clerics. So once they get 2 they stop and want melees. So unless the group already knows ahead of time that your not a healer - they will fill 2 spots, and thats it for clerics. Then get to part 4 and realize that they are about to wipe because "Well Im a battle cleric", and the first cleric doesnt carry a pile of mana pots. And again it is the point that unless people know you, if they already have 2 clerics...why would they want a 3rd unless they already know ahead that it can fight? No battle cleric can match a dedicated melee for damage no matter what people tell themselves - close maybe but never as good.

    The whole point of a dedicated healer and dedicated melee in a raid is that the melee gets to keep swinging = more damage. If the cleric is weak or doesnt heal, and the melee's have to stop and self heal, jump out to use scrolls or pots - that means their dps drops to 0. It is pretty absurd to watch a raid go south because a cleric thinks their damage is so good that they dont need to heal and stand there and watch ppl die because they dont have the ability to stop mashing the attack button long enough to cast a couple spells.

    I have been in raids and watched a 'battle cleric' who does probably half the damage of a twinked out melee stand and fight while people are dying around them, and dropping out of the fight to wait for healing or drink pots while the 'cleric' is swinging away. the group dps is pitiful when that happens because the melees have to stop fighting or are dying, and the cleric certainly isnt adding enough dps to make up for 4 other people say dropping out, and such raids are far more likely to wipe/fail.

    I am not coming down on battle clerics (since I have one), but again back to the main point - heal other people too, or else only play with people who know you.

    Unless someone can hit like a 70+ ac in a lot of content, they are going to need healing. So if your the cleric and want to fight, suck it up and make sure everyrone else stays alive too.

    And if you are the only cleric in a party of 6 - guess what people let you in because they asked for a cleric, and if they get someone that doesnt heal - your going to see a growing number of people that refuse you let you join groups.

    Anyway....
    Last edited by Riggs; 05-21-2009 at 12:44 AM.

  16. #36
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    That said, a decent group can have almost anything and do most quests - it is when people are less than decent, or bad gear, or things go south that the healing needs ramp up.

    If there is a good caster and/or the melees have good ac then healing needs go way down.

  17. #37
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    A fun solo battle-cleric build with level 20 in mind would be= 16cleric/2pal/2monk. High saves, evasion, high enough charisma for new damage enhancement, etc. etc.


    I have the same build right now as rogue 12/2monk/2paladin and the ac,saves, and dps are just plain awesome!


    EDIT
    Allot of the earlier comments are the reason people roll WF battlecasters, instead of battle clerics. In DDO clerics are rare, so when people see the icon they DEMAND heals. Its a sad state of affairs Im afraid.
    Last edited by Delacroix21; 05-21-2009 at 03:47 PM.

  18. #38
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    @Riggs

    You are right, and thats why i gave the conditions which must be met to make this kind of build work properly. And yet got mostly ignored by your arguments.



    since it presumes a) that you have a dedicated healer
    Yes, very important condition.

    1st:
    A "healing me 1st" as in: if i am dead there will be no more heals for anyone.

    And not as in "Healing me and only me , all that mana is just for me, sukkkars"


    2nd:
    I have been in raids and watched a 'battle cleric' who does probably half the damage of a twinked out melee stand and fight while people are dying around them, and dropping out of the fight to wait for healing or drink pots while the 'cleric' is swinging away.
    And i have seen Battle Clerics out melee-kill dedicated melees significantly, while still keeping the group properly healed.

    What do we learn from this:
    Anecdotal evidence is not worth much.



    3rd:

    And also - generally people posting for say the Shroud want about 2 clerics. So once they get 2 they stop and want melees. So unless the group already knows ahead of time that your not a healer - they will fill 2 spots, and thats it for clerics.

    Your Shroud example is perfectly true, but violated the condition of there being enough dedicated healing power. And: No deceit!

    You cant build and play a fighter with healing power and apply for a Healbot spot. Even if you could cheat yourself into that spot inthe raid, as you can appear to be what they are looking for. Thats exactly the same as buiding a STR-GTWF-Rogue with 400 HP, AC 65, but no trapskills, and join a Monastery group who is specifically looking for a Rogue in its 6th spot.
    Yes, they are looking for a guy with the class icon you have. But they arent looking for a Tank, they are actually looking for someone who can deal with traps.



    people will make assumptions about your build based on the classes you have. That makes it a necessarity to communicate the peculiarities of your build if you run an "abnormal" character.





    If you want to judge a build you have to evaluate if its "damage dealt" to "healing attention needed" is in a viable bracket.

    standart barbarian = very high DPS, so high healing attention is okay.

    DEX-Paladin = mediocre DPS, but nearly no healing attention is needed, so still an okay Quota.


    The key in a Battle Cleric is not to out-DPS DPS-builds, but to keep your "Damage dealt / Healer attention" quota good enough.




    Also playing a BattleCleric is more difficult that playing a Healbot, as you not only have to watch the Healthbars, but also the fight-in-progress itself.

    Which will easily lead to bad performance if the BattleCleric player applied for a healer spot, may it be explicitly or by omitting the peculiarities in his build through silence, and simply didnt heal in tight fights, because he completly focused on meleeing, ignoring/forgetting the dual nature of his character.


    So deception often combined with lacking abilitiy.
    That is the problem which many people faced and which experiences keep remembered.
    Last edited by Noctus; 05-22-2009 at 08:55 AM.
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  19. #39
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    True points.

    I make some broad generalizations, and am mostly painting a broad picture of things.

    Gear, player ability, twinkiness...and gear are extremly important for killing power, or kill counts.

    I have seen a ton of melees ranging from super awesome to seemingly impossibly bad for a level 16 fighter/paladin/barb whatever. My battle cleric can outkill a lot of melees too...

    But given the same gear, tomes, player skill, being twinked out for fighting - a melee class will out damage, and should be outkilling a battle cleric. Fighters get specializations, boosts, extra str etc, and Mod 9 (one day) kensai or whatever is going to be huge. Paladins get divine favor as well as clerics, might, smites etc, and soon extra bonuses, barbs and rangers enough said.

    Kill counts in the Shroud are mostly irrelevant as well - all it tells you is who wasnt beating on portals in part 1 - and someone has to take care of the trogs and stuff - getting 30 kills from trogs isnt any significant bragging rights.

    True a battle cleric, or a paladin, or a good ac ranger say, will have a very low healing requirement - and it lets someone else worry about a smaller group to keep healed. A low healing group/(self healing or high ac) can do things that a heavy healing group can, just a bit slower.

    However my main point was going back to the basic argument that as long as the group knows what kind of cleric you are - they can fill the rest accordingly. But regardless of what kind of battle cleric you are - be prepared to heal when needed.

    Because not healing others at all, makes moot the cleric icon.

  20. #40
    Community Member Noctus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    However my main point was going back to the basic argument that as long as the group knows what kind of cleric you are - they can fill the rest accordingly. But regardless of what kind of battle cleric you are - be prepared to heal when needed.
    100% true.

    People who forgot/ignored that point gave the whole build concept such a bad reputation.
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