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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Powerful weapons do not remove challenge, if you are facing powerful opponents.

    As we gain in levels, the monsters we face scale with out gear.

    That's the point though isn't it, it's the people that face things well below a challenge, overpowering the area which is no challenge.

    I've already seen people with hand-me downs or twinks with race specific items they've garnered from another character rush through zones atomizing everything in their path. No fun for anyone else in the party, watching them one-shot everything with no risk of injury. The watchers barely get to participate at all, and it's a huge turn off.

    The should have a "super elite" for those people which is +5 levels above the base quest. Instead of just the +2 that the current elite is.
    Maybe just making hard +2 levels and elite +4 levels would do it.

    I'd much rather see clever tactics , well thought out plans than a zerg rush , any day.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    It will get much worse with Mod 9... It's not that far off now at level 16 though... I recently took a character to level 16, and I repeated only a few quests... (I did all the chains n/h/e)
    Contradictory. If you ran chains on n/h/e, that's a lot more than triple the XP than if you had only run them once on normal, which is what Arianhr was talking about.

    However, getting to the point where a person can level all the way up only running anything once on normal is not a productive goal. Repeating things once or twice on a character isn't a problem, especially when you consider the number of times he'll repeat a quest once capped.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustbucky View Post
    In that solo quest it might have a section where wizards can learn how to prepare spells etc.
    It might have section where you're told about tower shields that all fighters get, and the pluses and minuses of that etc
    Then it might also have a section where the immunities and challenges of a warforged are showcased.
    The thing which holds the whole solo quest together is the story theme based around house cannith.
    The idea of using the segregated quests for class-specific training doesn't mesh really well with the fact that DDO characters don't necessarily pick their classes at creation.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustbucky View Post
    The should have a "super elite" for those people which is +5 levels above the base quest. Instead of just the +2 that the current elite is.
    Maybe just making hard +2 levels and elite +4 levels would do it.
    Hard and Elite already increase the mission difficulty by +2 and +5, respectively. (Those numbers increase past level 15)

    However, that suggestion is irrelevant to the problem. The over-powered twinked characters don't want a challenge from those quests. They want to get their XP and get out, so they'll never willingly choose an optional choice to make it harder.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Contradictory. If you ran chains on n/h/e, that's a lot more than triple the XP than if you had only run them once on normal, which is what Arianhr was talking about.

    However, getting to the point where a person can level all the way up only running anything once on normal is not a productive goal. Repeating things once or twice on a character isn't a problem, especially when you consider the number of times he'll repeat a quest once capped.
    It's just a way to measure when one can consider there to be "enough" content. Even a casual gamer who takes 3 years to get to cap is going to consider content lacking if they have to repeat some of it just to get high enough level to see the rest.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    Even a casual gamer who takes 3 years to get to cap is going to consider content lacking if they have to repeat some of it just to get high enough level to see the rest.
    That is obviously untrue.

    In fact, a person who takes 3 years to reach level 16 is going to have been playing so infrequently that he'll hardly notice when he repeats a quest, because he's been away from it too long to remember it clearly.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I bet one could get to level 16 by repeating every quest in the game only twice.
    That's not true, as when you reach higher level the number of quests is too limited for that to be true.

    Well, unless you truly desire to run low level quests for minimal XP and very little challenge, but where is the fun in that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    I bet one could get to level 16 by repeating every quest in the game only twice.
    Even in areas of the game where this is true, there are a lot of quests that are hard to get a group for.

    If only Turbine revisited those areas to make them more appealing.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    That is obviously untrue.

    In fact, a person who takes 3 years to reach level 16 is going to have been playing so infrequently that he'll hardly notice when he repeats a quest, because he's been away from it too long to remember it clearly.
    Um....again, that hasn't been my experience. First, there are many reasons to take a long time to level. Making alts is one of them; in that case, even doing the same low level quests once on each character get repetitive. Having to repeat them on the same character is downright tedious. I don't want to seem rude or anything, but aren't you the one telling people not to discuss things they have no experience of? I know how long it takes me to forget a quest, and even with just one repetition, it takes many months before it's even close to feeling "new" again. At one quest a week, a person would need, at minimum, 12 quests to run between the first Stormcleave run and the second to "hardly notice" that she was repeating it.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    Um....again, that hasn't been my experience.
    Maybe so, but your experiences are nonrepresentative and not useful to investigate.

    You happily admitted to never playing level 15 quests, which strongly indicates that catering to your preferences would be unprofitable. It's simple: you don't like playing at much above level 10, therefore you don't enjoy the most prominent part of DDO gameplay, and are not part of the target population for game development.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    It's just a way to measure when one can consider there to be "enough" content.
    That would be fine for a solo game, but this isn't a solo game. It would be a mistake for DDO developers to use that as a metric for having enough different quests. To do so would lead to a major waste of resources. It would be going too far, just like wearing a crash helmet when you drive to work.

    Here's a simple proof:
    1. Are most players in static groups all the time? Would it be a good idea for the developers to assume that static groups are the norm?

    2. Is there a ordered list of dungeons, so you can only do quest 93 after having done quests 1-92? Would it be a good idea to add something like that?

    3. Assuming the answers to #1 and #2 were both "No", then when you have a set of 3-6 characters joined into a party, will the list of quests they haven't done yet be all identical? Or will some of them have done quests that others haven't?

    4. Obviously, not all members will have done exactly the same quests previously. Therefore when the party moves out to do their mission, one of two things will happen: (a) a person who's already done it will do it again, or (b) a person won't get to do a quest he wants, because someone else already went there.

    4b. And if (b) happens, then eventually the party will get to the point where there are NO quests they can do without someone repeating them. Even if each member has only done 16% of the quests of this level, that's enough for all possibilities to be covered.

    5. Therefore, players will repeat quests sometimes. It's an unavoidable consequence of non-static party membership.

    6. If there are so many quests that you don't need to repeat any to level, but characters are already repeating quests for other reasons, then it means that characters will make it through a level without having had a chance to visit even close to all of the quests at that level. That indicates that the developers wasted effort by building many more quests than can actually be played while you're still at the appropriate power.

  11. #91

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    Let's try a different set of assumptions:

    1. Developers will be adding new content more or less continually (if perhaps not as quickly as players would like)

    2. Those who race to the top levels by repeating a few high-experience quests rather than playing every quest in consecutive order don't mind repetition as much as those who choose to do every quest

    With this in mind, it's not unreasonable to add some lower level content along with the top-end stuff, at least until there is enough to satisfy those who prefer not to repeat quests.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    1. Developers will be adding new content more or less continually (if perhaps not as quickly as players would like)
    The rate at which they add content has little bearing as to what level would be best to add. The only way it's connected is that if additions are slower, more characters will have reached high level by the time something new is added, increasing the need for the new stuff to be max level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    2. Those who race to the top levels by repeating a few high-experience quests rather than playing every quest in consecutive order don't mind repetition as much as those who choose to do every quest
    That's irrelevant, because reaching level 16 in no way implies that you raced there by repeating a small number of quests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    least until there is enough to satisfy those who prefer not to repeat quests.
    Why would they want to satisfy those people?

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Why would they want to satisfy those people?
    sigh

    I'm not going to answer questions like this, that come across as having no purpose other than to bait someone. If you can't think of any reasons, I'm just going to assume it's because you don't want to.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    If you can't think of any reasons, I'm just going to assume it's because you don't want to.
    It's because there is no good reason.

    There are a lot of different things some person or other would prefer. For example, many players would like to type /dqd and have their character become immune to all damage, but it would obviously be bad for the developers to cater to that.

    Similarly, catering to your desires to never repeat a quest would not be profitable for the developers. It would mean nearly doubling or tripling their costs, for hardly any benefit.

  15. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    It's because there is no good reason.

    There are a lot of different things some person or other would prefer. For example, many players would like to type /dqd and have their character become immune to all damage, but it would obviously be bad for the developers to cater to that.

    Similarly, catering to your desires to never repeat a quest would not be profitable for the developers. It would mean nearly doubling or tripling their costs, for hardly any benefit.
    Just...

    take a step back for a moment, and consider the history of the game, and its future.

    If, for example, the level cap remains at 20 for at least a year (as it should, since 20 is supposed to be the top level in D&D...epic levels are "extra"), new content could be added at a ratio of, say, 4 "endgame" quests to 1 "leveling" quest, and the "never repeat a quest" goal could still be reached eventually. Giving a bit of a bone to the old-school D&D players does not require completely blowing off those who prefer endgame content.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    Giving a bit of a bone to the old-school D&D players does not require completely blowing off those who prefer endgame content.
    It's fallacious to claim that "old-school D&D players" are going to habitually delete their characters at level 11 and reroll them.

    The foundation of your position seems to be that you think people who stop advancing past about level 10 represent a significant number of customers. But, they just don't. That's a very atypical way to play.

    The large majority either have high-level characters, or intend to once they get that far. It's rarely profitable for development to specifically aim at a minority of customers, especially when the subscriber base is already so low.

  17. #97

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    It seems to be down to the 2 of us, and we're just never going to agree.

    We've both addressed the OP, and likely done all the convincing we're going to. Maybe it's time to just move on to other subjects

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