Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 97
  1. #21
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    3,527

    Default

    theres already a large assortment of low level quests for players, especially new players. Running most of it on solo/norm can easily take you out of the harbor.

    Challenging short quests would be much better served at lvl cap. Little exp, and maybe one end chest that has a really low chance of dropping some named loot and you're set.

    What I miss is the 5 - 10 minute quests that proliferate the harbor and market being largely extinct from higher levels. And I'm not talking zerg fests here, b/c you can zerg the harbor stuff in 1-2 minutes, and some of the higher stuff in < 10 as well.
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  2. #22
    Community Member Zai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Those traits have very little to do with WOW's success.

    For someone who stays actively subscribed for very long, time spent in segregated lowbie zones accounts for only a tiny fraction of the game experience.
    Actually it has a lot to do with it. WoW is successful because it's an easy game to get into. People like the trial (hint: not many people get out of the 1-20 zones during a trial) and buy the game, play for a few months, tell their friends about it, then eventually quit once they get tired of the boring end game grind. Most WoW players have been playing less than a year, which is why it's still a best seller but more or less at a stabilized subscription number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    time spent in segregated lowbie zones accounts for only a tiny fraction of the game experience.
    Content is content. You'll go through it at the same speed whether it's level 1-3 content or level 16 content. So your argument there really makes no sense.

    No matter what kind of resources a company has, it's impossible to provided unlimited content. There's a reason it's called end game. It's the end, you've finished with the meat of the game, all you get are a few bones until the cap is raised. That's how MMOs work.

  3. #23
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    17,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    Actually it has a lot to do with it. WoW is successful because it's an easy game to get into.
    A factor to which the variety of starting quests is scarcely relevant. The real reason WOW is easier to start than DDO is that players aren't faced with any choices of irreversible consequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    Content is content. You'll go through it at the same speed whether it's level 1-3 content or level 16 content. So your argument there really makes no sense.
    [nom]
    Last edited by Tolero; 05-26-2009 at 01:47 PM.

  4. #24

    Default

    Multiple low level starter areas would be fun. There should be a new starter zone with enough quests to get to level 4 or 5, and a new race to start there, with each expansion....but wait, there haven't been any expansions

  5. #25
    Community Member Zai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    A factor to which the variety of starting quests is scarcely relevant. The real reason WOW is easier to start than DDO is that players aren't faced with any choices of irreversible consequence.
    You mean like... what class to play? Spending 10-15 levels on a class you end up not liking is a pretty big "irreversible consequence." The only option is starting over, and WoW makes that easy by having a fresh set of content ready for you.

    nom
    Five hours of level 1 content = Five hours of level 16 content. [nom]
    Last edited by Tolero; 05-26-2009 at 01:47 PM.

  6. #26
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    47

    Wink

    Absolutely zai, I completely agree, [I dont like personal attacks]

    Thankfully the dev's understand the whole picture, you work on all ends, you put most of your effort into the upper end where most of your oldest players are at.. but you still work on makeing the overall game better, improving stuff at the low/middle end that people do play again when they try new builds.

    This game is heavy on the customization class wise, there are many many options, and to try them all you have to start again. Maybe some players are so bored that they'll zerg through the early stuff just to get capped as soon as possible.
    well if there were 5 starter areas.. maybe it wouldnt be so boring.. at least UNTIL you finished the starter area and were put back in stormreach main. More quests in the 4-5 zone added in with the new starter areas would be a great boost to game replayability.
    I dont know.. I dont find running shroud umpteen times to exactly be the best fun either.
    Last edited by Tolero; 05-26-2009 at 01:47 PM.

  7. #27
    Community Member RigorAdar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    You mean like... what class to play? Spending 10-15 levels on a class you end up not liking is a pretty big "irreversible consequence." The only option is starting over, and WoW makes that easy by having a fresh set of content ready for you.



    Translation:


    Five hours of level 1 content = Five hours of level 16 content. It's common sense, go find some.
    I have to disagree with you here. 5 hours of low level content that never gets played is not the same as 5 hours of end game content that gets repeated ad nauseum.

    There is plenty of low level content to level already, adding more is just for flavor. With the level cap raising there is a much more pressing need for end game content. Not to mention the fact that we have been stuck with nothing new for months.

    The idea for class/race segregated starter content is an idea i can get behind if the Dev's ever drop an expansion pack, or have a real marketing push with boxes on the shelves. Too much time has been lost to creating/revamping low and mid level quests that few ever run anyways.

  8. #28
    Community Member Zai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    32

    Default

    Why would it never get played? The vast majority of characters created never make it to the cap, all of them have to do low level content. Far more people are going to see and experience 5 hours of low level content than 5 hours of content added for characters at the cap decked out in full raid gear. It's like the first Naxx in WoW, an end game raid instance that literally less than 1% of players ever stepped into. If devs continuously add tiers to end game for the vocal minority of "hardcore" players that want it, they will quickly get to the point where they are making content for a tiny fraction of their playerbase. It's even less important in a game with a constantly increasing level cap, where all of that content becomes obsolete as soon as the cap rises.

  9. #29
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by hazzazz View Post
    Forums are all about that giving opinions, and anyone who's been on them expects vultures waiting in the wings to voice their own over somebody else's opinions, i'm right and you're wrong sort of attitude. We all expect that, and we get that trolls with flamethrowers. Except these trolls dont die to fire.. they sort of just get more enraged and more violent to your person.

    As a new player, I compare this to wow, it's an easy comparison. Wow has a HUGE amount of early content, multiple start areas and although the quests are superficial in design in comparison to ddo, they have the edge in variety. You can start in about 6 different areas all with their own quests (another 2 more if you consider the expansion races).

    people replaying their characters with new builds might be like the majority and just do XP quests, zerg it , rush it just to get them as high as they can as soon as possible. but not all want that.. maybe they want a full experience.
    You're right in one respect it does take the same time to make low level stuff as high.. you're getting a bunch of that in mod 9 anyway.. but thats beside the point. Why are you so leveling orientated anyway? do you only want to play one character?
    Theres OODLES of build options in ddo from what I can see.. many MANY different ways to play that puts WOW to shame. So there should be MORE reasons for having more low level content not less..

    I do commiserate with players who want to keep leveling their favorite high level toon, but content is content at any level. You can take your level MAX guy and zerg him through the low level mission because it's new and not enjoy it because you're way overpowered for it. or you can take a low level guy through it at the level it's supposed to be played at and enjoy it completely as it was meant to be, the choice is yours.
    It's your gameplay time..
    Well spoken.

    Of course there should be more end game content. A random generated 50 level tower with raid loot at the top (one in 6 chance) would solve this problem. If you die you get booted from the tower and it resets.
    Last edited by spifflove; 05-25-2009 at 12:53 PM.

  10. #30
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    17,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    Why would it never get played? The vast majority of characters created never make it to the cap, all of them have to do low level content. Far more people are going to see and experience 5 hours of low level content than 5 hours of content added for characters at the cap decked out in full raid gear.
    [I disagree]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    It's like the first Naxx in WoW, an end game raid instance that literally less than 1% of players ever stepped into.
    No, it's nothing like that at all.

    Why are you attempting to state facts about a subject you have obviously never experienced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    If devs continuously add tiers to end game for the vocal minority of "hardcore" players that want it, they will quickly get to the point where they are making content for a tiny fraction of their playerbase.
    That statement has absolutely no relationship (or even slightly resemblance) to anything that's ever happened in DDO.
    Last edited by Tolero; 05-26-2009 at 01:48 PM.

  11. #31
    WikiGnome
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Québec City, Canada
    Posts
    24,864

    Default

    nom
    Wow. That is fail.

    One does not need to look very far to find Angelus_dead talking about improving the new players' experience.
    Last edited by Tolero; 05-26-2009 at 01:49 PM.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

  12. #32

    Default

    The idea is nice, but it won't work for a game like this. For one, making that many different kinds of quests just for low-levels would be a large chuck of dev resources that can't be spared. Also, splitting up the lowbie levels isn't such a great idea. You don't have a lot of players to begin with, so splitting that small number into an even smaller number will make grouping harder. Grouping is the real essence of DDO, and forcing players into smaller niches by race/class just kills it.

    Aelvara - Bagel - Bagelbot - Daarna - Kraldor - Minibagel - Uberlute - Wounder

    |||-C a f f e i n e-|||
    |||Q u a n t u m - E n t r o p y|||

  13. #33
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    17,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraldor View Post
    For one, making that many different kinds of quests just for low-levels would be a large chuck of dev resources that can't be spared.
    Furthermore, it's incorrect to assume that just because a person has created one CLASS X RACE combination he'll never make another.

    That's true in many games, because one Orc Shaman is as good as another, but it's emphatically not the case in DDO, where one kind of Warforged Wizard can be seriously and permanently distinct from another build.

    Adding new low-level quests is one thing... but adding new quests, and then segregating them by character type so that not everyone gets the opportunity to play them? That's bad.

  14. #34
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Furthermore, it's incorrect to assume that just because a person has created one CLASS X RACE combination he'll never make another.
    That's true in many games, because one Orc Shaman is as good as another, but it's emphatically not the case in DDO, where one kind of Warforged Wizard can be seriously and permanently distinct from another build.
    I agree with that one, lots of options lots of choices, those are good things.

    Adding new low-level quests is one thing... but adding new quests, and then segregating them by character type so that not everyone gets the opportunity to play them? That's bad.
    Everyone does have the opportunity to play them, those areas above are storyline driven. You just make a character type that fits in with the starter area because it makes sense to. They're also very early in the game so you dont have to play for 10 levels before you get the chance to play that "segregated" quest.

    Sure there is a place for other characters outside the scope of the design, but the average paladin isnt going to be helping raid a merchants bank for some shifty chaotic sneak, unless the story is carefully designed to open a hole for that.

    It's like that purge of the heretics, funny as it is, all characters can go in there regardless, it's just another quest, you're doing it for the flame right? what if your character is a cleric of the sovereign host? why are you participating? Your brother dragged you down there and you're looking after him?


    I dont cut down people's suggestions for the record angelus, nor do I assume I know it all or that my point of view is the only one with validity out there.
    EVERYONE wants new content wherever it may be, theres a place in the game for all sorts of players, and though they often dont get along because of their own perspectives, they usually arent forced to play together and put up with a style of play they find repulsive.

    I want positive constructive criticism, people offering alternatives or modification to suggestions they dont like, not people blasting away with their blinkers on, venting some frustration with a harsh diatribe and blaming people who arent responsible for somehow causing the problem whose source lies elsewhere.
    Last edited by pumbilly; 05-26-2009 at 02:22 AM.

  15. #35
    WikiGnome
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Québec City, Canada
    Posts
    24,864

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pumbilly View Post
    Everyone does have the opportunity to play them, those areas above are storyline driven.
    It seems quite obvious to me that it is a bad idea, but since you disagree I'll list a few reasons:

    1. In LOTRO, each race has a different starting area and a different storyline to advance. If two players want to roll characters and play together, they'll have to advance different storyline and have to play in different zones if they do not select the same race (and classes being race restricted makes this worse).

    Segregating players based on race or class will thus lead to situations where players will either have to not play together or have restricted character choice.

    2. If there are any content issue at lower levels, it is that the content is either underused or overused. However, there is certainly no lack of quest at lower levels. There is a total of twenty six level 2 quests, while there are no level 15 quests and only five level 16 quests. Clearly, the higher level suffer much more a lack of content and that is there that the attention should be focused.

    If you believed there are too little quest ran at lower levels, the solution is to tweak those quests so that they are more fun (some quests are unpopular because they are boring to most), to adjust their quest level to really reflect the challenge or to balance the XP reward as an incentive for veterans to run those.

    3. Separating players on race or class serves as a poor introduction to new players as they get to play with a much smaller sample of character than what they will be exposed to when they gain a few levels.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

  16. #36
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    17,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    1. In LOTRO, each race has a different starting area and a different storyline to advance. If two players want to roll characters and play together, they'll have to advance different storyline and have to play in different zones if they do not select the same race (and classes being race restricted makes this worse).

    Segregating players based on race or class will thus lead to situations where players will either have to not play together or have restricted character choice.
    However, it's not quite as bad in a game like LOTRO (or WOW), because they offer full respecs of every character decision besides class and race. That means that once you've leveled a Hobbit Burglar or whatever, you will never ever need to make another one. If you build another character it'll naturally differ in either race or class, so it comes from a different starting area instead of repeating one.

    Obviously that's not true in DDO, where it's entirely possible someone will create a Halfling Rogue again and again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    3. Separating players on race or class serves as a poor introduction to new players as they get to play with a much smaller sample of character than what they will be exposed to when they gain a few levels.
    That is less of a problem for a game like WOW, whose servers are known to repeatedly struggle against overcrowding. But as DDO has fewer users, anything that obstructs players from interacting with each other is more serious.

  17. #37
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    17,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    If there is a lack of content, it is past level 12, and that is observable, but if someone disagrees the likelihood of that person realizing his mistake through an argument is close to none. Better let that person come to that realization later on when he experiences higher levels and see how empty of content they are.
    More specifically, he is probably referring to the following exchange:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    Content is content. You'll go through it at the same speed whether it's level 1-3 content or level 16 content. So your argument there really makes no sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    You are so completely wrong that I won't bother to attempt to explain anything to you.
    As you can see, what happened there is someone made a statement about game design theory that is completely and tremendously wrong. It's a very basic and fundamental point, and if someone can't understand how wrong it is then there is little reason to waste time discussing that topic with him.

    Additionally, it would take an organized and dedicated effort to teach a person why a claim like "Content is content" is so far wrong. Being as I saw no reason to spend hours of effort and days of attention teaching that subject, I informed him that I would not do so.

  18. #38
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    17,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Additionally, it would take an organized and dedicated effort to teach a person why a claim like "Content is content" is so far wrong. Being as I saw no reason to spend hours of effort and days of attention teaching that subject, I informed him that I would not do so.
    I see that someone else did attempt to explain it:
    Quote Originally Posted by RigorAdar View Post
    I have to disagree with you here. 5 hours of low level content that never gets played is not the same as 5 hours of end game content that gets repeated ad nauseum.

    There is plenty of low level content to level already, adding more is just for flavor. With the level cap raising there is a much more pressing need for end game content. Not to mention the fact that we have been stuck with nothing new for months.
    But it didn't work:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zai View Post
    Why would it never get played? The vast majority of characters created never make it to the cap, all of them have to do low level content. Far more people are going to see and experience 5 hours of low level content than 5 hours of content added for characters at the cap decked out in full raid gear.
    This suggests my guess was correct and that to teach that guy the principles of endgame content would be a long-term job, if it were even possible at all. And since teaching is more difficult when the students don't respect you, why put in the effort? Why do a lot of work to change someone's mind, when you won't get anything for it?

    I can find something more productive to do with that time.

  19. #39
    Community Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    25

    Default

    There's no doubt the game changes as it goes on, what's important and works early on often changes. The game focus changes also.

    Early level stuff is usually to teach a player how to play, but that's also assuming they wont be coming back here once they know the game. Hence the ability to skip the tutorial I saw when I made another character after finishing the korthos area.

    Even with ONE start area like korthos, I didn't see many people around at all so I doubt it would be much different with 5 or 6 choices of start area.
    It certainly wasn't easy to link up with other people except via the create a group part of the social panel.
    I saw no way of seeing a list of even who was in my area. As a trial person I've been unable to send tells to anyone. That's probably to stop the gold farmers that may abuse that with random advertising but it certainly didn't make things easier.



    Is everything you need to know to play in the tutorial? I don't know, I played it but it didn't even teach basic stuff about how to drag skills/feats from those parts of the character sheet to the quickbar where they can be easily used that's something another player told me. Those are the fundamental mistakes I see missing from the tutorial. It assumes that the player has played other games like it before, maybe that's not a bad assumption you be the judge.

    I'm sure the Op just wanted to see some improvements, turbine are the only ones who have the power to do that.

  20. #40
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    In the great state of Confusion
    Posts
    8,540

    Default

    While I would not MIND seeing a couple of possible starting locations, it is not needed curretly.

    I also would perfer a CHOICE of starting locations instead of being forced there by race/class choices.

    Honestly though it is more important at this time to fill out the game. If you ever get a chance to look at the number of high level characters vs low level characters on line at a given time, I think you'll see that more people are playing high level characters.


    We're getting level 20 now and we really need the quests in the upper tier to be more robust. The problem though is that most people once they hit 9-10 will jump straihgt to Gianthold and power level to about 13-14 then jump to the Vale and the Shroud... its all such a linear path. However that's part of the problem there is that the items you can get in the shroud are so good... you'd need something comparable to make a successful Mod. Anyway I'm late for wotrk catch ya on the flip side.


    Aesop
    Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff
    Rule 2: Its all small stuff
    Rule 3: People are stupid. You, me everyone... expect it
    more rules to come in a different sig

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload