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  1. #1
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    Default Pally Monk Unarmed Melee with Pally Damage Enhancements?

    Hello,

    I've been toying around with a build idea: a Pally Monk that focuses on unarmed combat using all the nice ways that Pally's get to enhance their damage/attacks. It certainly won't be anywhere near the top of the DPS scale, but I'm wondering just how viable it would be. I've sketched out the build below, and in the final section, I voice some concerns and questions.

    Level Split
    I see the class split as 10 Pally/6 Monk right now, eventually going to 14 Pally/6 Monk. This gets you the second (Adept) tier of stances, allowing for increased melee speed, I believe. The sixth Monk level also gets an extra Monk Feat (though I'm kind of hard pressed as to what to choose for that one).

    However, I was also thinking 18 Pally / 2 Monk might be ok. You lose the second tier stance, but it opens up Divine Might III and Exalted Smith IV. You would also get longer lasting Zeals (come the next mod), your Exalted Smite damage would increase, and it allows the possibility of the third tier Prestige Class. I think it could be interesting mixing in the Knight of the Chalice for even more damage (though I'm not sure if I would have enough AP points to do it all).

    Anyways, beyond the level split issue, below is how I see the rest of the build. I'm going with Human because of the extra Feat and more versatility in terms of how to play the build out down the road.


    Stats:
    Str: 16 (+4 Level Ups + 2 Favor Tome + 6 Item) = 28 + 2 Rage Pot = 30
    Dex: 15 (+2 Tome, which I do have, + 1 Human Enhancement = 6 Item) = 24
    Con: 14 (+6 Item) = 20
    Int: 8
    Wis: 10 (+6 Item) = 16
    Cha: 14 (+3 Pally Enhancements + 1 Human Enhancement + 6 Item) = 24

    As you can see, there's really nothing extravagant going on in the Stat/Tome department. There's the favor tome for Strength, but beyond that, only a +2 Dex Tome (which, as I indicated, I already have). Dex has to be where it's at for the two-weapon fighting feats. Strength of course is necessary for damage and to-hit. Charisma is also important of course. I didn't put much into Wisdom, since this really isn't going to be an AC build and I think (hope) I have enough SP anyways. The build doesn't really need much in terms of skill points, so I left Int empty.


    Feats
    Level 1 (Mnk) - Two-Weapon Fighting, Toughness (Mnk), Stunning Blow (Human)
    Level 2 (Pally) - N/A
    Level 3 (Pally) - Weapon Focus Bludgeon (I was also thinking Skill Focus UMD)
    Level 4 (Mnk) - Power Attack (Mnk Feat)
    Level 5 (Pally) - N/A
    Level 6 (Pally) - Extend (Nice for Divine Favor and Zeal)
    Level 7 (Mnk) - Path of Harmonious Balance
    Level 8 (Pally) - N/A
    Level 9 (Pally) - Improved Critical Bludgeon
    Level 10 (Mnk) - N/A
    Level 11 (Pally) - N/A
    Level 12 (Mnk) - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    Level 13 (Pally) - N/A
    Level 14 (Pally) - N/A
    Level 15 (Mnk) - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Toughness (Mnk Feat)
    Level 16 (Pally) - N/A

    As you can see, for the third Monk Feat, I took Toughness again. There really wasn't much else to choose from. I might have gone for Lightning Reflexes, but the extra HP seemed more desirable because the Wind Stances take away from Con.


    Skill Points
    The skill point distribution is pretty simple. Start with Monk and put everything into Balance, Jump, Concentration and UMD. At subsequent Monk levels, I get 4 skill points that go into those same four skills. At the Pally levels, I get 2 skill points that go into Concentration and UMD. At level 16, this should put my skills at (unbuffed and no items):
    Balance: 16
    Jump: 16
    Concentration: 25
    UMD: 16.5

    I could actually get my UMD to a decent level. If I took Skill Focus UMD and factor in Human Versatility, I could get it boosted to around 30.
    Example: 16.5 base + 3 Focus + 3 HV + 2 Heroism + 3 Golden Cartouche + 2 HGF = 29.5


    Enhancements
    The Enhancements are really where this build focuses. My thought is to get as many of the Pally Enhancements as I can, max them out as much as I can, and just alternate between them as their timers cool down.

    At level 16, with 64 AP's:

    Human side (Total of 12 AP spent):
    Dex Adaptability (2 AP's)
    Cha Adaptability (4 AP's)
    Human Versatility II (3 AP's total)
    Racial Toughness II (3 AP's total)

    Monk side (Total of 7 AP spent):
    Way of the Patient Tortoise (1 AP)
    Adept of Wind (3 AP's total)
    Adept of Flame (3 AP's total)

    Pally side (Total of 45 AP spent):
    Pally Charisma III (12 AP's total)
    Extra Lay on Hands II (3 AP's total)
    Pally Toughness IV (10 AP's total)
    Extra Turning II (3 AP's total)
    Extra Smite IV (10 AP's total)
    Divine Sacrifice I (1 AP)
    Exalted Smite II (3 AP's total)
    Divine Might II (3 AP's total)

    To get the second Divine Might, I would need to add a +2 Cha Tome (need a base of 16). If that doesn't happen, I could just take one of the Improved Recovery's instead.


    Playstyle and Combat Profile
    This is where I become a little clouded as to how the build will actually play out. And this where I'm hoping the more knowledgeable community will be able to help me out.

    The build will utilize four main special attacks: Stunning Blow, Exalted Smite, Divine Sacrifice and Divine Might (I probably won't bother with Trip or Sunder since that would just be too many darn buttons).

    Divine Sacrifice and Might are really situational, so I don't see myself using them that much. Divine Might will get turned on for Bosses. Sacrifice might be tossed in when I know I'm getting healed regularly (like Boss fights when I'm in the Mass Cure circle).

    To be honest, I have no idea how many Smites I'll end up with at level 16. I get four extra from the Enhancements and Exalted Smite II reduces the cooldown to 4 seconds. I believe you regain a Smite every 90 seconds. I wonder if this will be enough to keep me Smiting at a regular interval (if I alternate with Stunning Blow) and what that interval would be...? At any rate, if I keep the 14 Pally / 6 Monk split, then I will advance to Exalted Smite III and Divine Sacrifice II by level 20.

    Other than the special attacks, I plan on being in the second tier Wind Stance most of the time with Power Attack on all the time. And with the next mod, I will have access to Zeal, speeding up my attacks even more. What would the boost to attack speed be exactly? What's the bonus from the Adept of Wind stance, then stacked with Zeal and Haste?

    I think my to-hit breaks down like this (at level 16):
    Base: +14
    Bludgeon Focus: +1
    Str: +10 (Raged)
    Handwraps: +5 (though could vary a lot between +1 and +9)
    Heroism: +2
    Haste: +1
    Power Attack: -5
    = +28 on first attack, increasing subsequent attacks (I don't know the specifics)

    That's with moderate buffs. With my Divine Favors, Greater Heroism and other miscellaneous buffs, I could see it getting into the mid-30's.

    The damage profile is also beyond my math skills. I know the 6 levels of Monk give me an increase to unarmed damage, but I have no idea what that is (the Compendium's description of Unarmed Strike wasn't very helpful). I know that Power Attack will give me a +5 bonus to damage (to each hand?).

    While Handwraps only have a base of 20/x2 crits, the Exalted Smiting opens that up to 18-20/x3 with double my Charisma bonus to attack. It also says I get an increase to damage based on my Pally levels, though I'm afraid I have no idea what that increase is.

    I guess my main concern is whether or not the Exalted Smiting and the increased speed will be enough to somewhat make up for the lower damage profile I'm suffering from by using handwraps.

    Given the core concept of this character and operating within that concept, is there a better way to accomplish my goals?
    For example...
    • Would you go 14Pal/6Mnk or 18Pal/2Mnk or some other split altogether?
    • Is Divine Sacrifice worth it?
    • Should I try to fit in Knight of the Chalice somehow with the next mod? Will I even have enough AP's?
    • Would a different race be better?
    • Is there a survivability issue? AC is nonexistent, HP is around 350 (depending on stances and buffs), Saves are in the low 30's (depending on buffs and items). Obviously not a solo build, but is the character too squishy?
    • Forget it? Unworkable? Hopelessly gimped??



    Thanks very much in advance!
    -Ngorongoro
    Last edited by Ngorongoro; 05-02-2009 at 12:38 PM.

  2. #2
    Community Member baddax's Avatar
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    interesting build do you have a projected AC?
    Also i think your wis might be a little low.
    Lastly one issue you might have is getting by DR monks get to bypass lawful/magical and adamantine DR at higher levels so im not sure how this will affect you. I think this will be a larger factor than the damage die you will get,I think levle 6 is 1d8.

    The traditional split for a build like this is 18 and 2 (for evasion). Its a safer bet if your dps does with handwraps does not work out you could still swap it to a more traditional pally build.

    Dont forget you will have to use robes and handwraps for your monk stances.
    Last edited by baddax; 05-02-2009 at 01:14 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Hi Baddax,


    Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I was thinking 18Pally/2Mnk would be safer as well. In fact, since level cap is still at 16, I might as well go 14Pal/2Mnk for now, saving the decision for later.

    Still, I'm enticed by that second tier Wind Stance. How much speed would I gain (or miss out on) with Adept? Would increased damage from Smites (from higher levels of Pally) outweigh the extra melee attacks from speed increase?

    As for the DR issue, I was thinking that I would have to use Transmuting Quarterstaffs to get by Adamantine DR. I get to remain in Stance and my Bludgeon feats are still useful.

    As for AC and Wis, those were the areas I was foregoing with this build. I have some other AC-focused builds, but they were such pains in terms of farming for raid gear and Shroud gear, and all the AC items took up so many darn slots. I wanted a build that could be free of worry from AC. I know Barbarians can get away with this because of their DR and massive HP pools, so I don't know how much a character like mine could do it. It's going to involve playing smartly, of course. Like letting better front-melee people initiate attacks and get aggro first.

    And since AC was no concern, I also didn't have much use for Wisdom. I'm not using any Monk abilities that depend on Wisdom DC's. My Will save ends up in the mid-20's depending on buffs, and that should be good enough. SP will pretty much only be spent on Divine Favor and Zeal, so that should be enough as well (it'll come out to about 250 - 300 SP depending on items).


    Thanks again,
    Ngorongoro
    Last edited by Ngorongoro; 05-02-2009 at 01:37 PM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Kintro's Avatar
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    This kind of build would be perfect for Weapon Ki: Longsword, especially if you went Elf. Let's hope they get the issues with that worked out soon!

    As for the level balance, I think I'd go 2 Monk so I would get 3rd tier prestige enhancements vs a 2.5% speed increase.
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  5. #5
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    14/6 would be nice


    Remember Flurry of Blows gives Monks extra BAB while using Ki Weapons ... including Unarmed... so your Attack Bonus is 2 higher


    Also remember PrEs tier 2 of the Paladin one and 1 for Monk (when Monk comes out)

    Remember that Monks havea Wisdom Enhancement as well.

    You may want to drop con by 1 Point and raise wis 1. +1 Tomes are pretty prevalent out there after all. Odd numbers shouldn't hurt in the long run.


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    Hi Kintro,


    It's only a 2.5% speed increase for Adept (second tier stance)? How much does the first tier stance give you? If that's the case, then you're certainly right that 18Pally/2Mnk seems more desirable.

    The Longsword option also seems interesting (assuming they let longswords remain Centered Monk weapons). The Elf Enhancements to longswords would be great, but then I'm really running tight on AP allocation!

    Still though, one of the reasons I was going for handwraps was because I thought they got more attacks than even dual wielding weapons. Am I incorrect? Would dual wielding kamas, for example, with all the 2WF feats, yield the same number of attacks in the same time span as unarmed handwraps with all the 2WF feats?


    Thanks again,
    Ngorongoro

  7. #7
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngorongoro View Post
    Hi Kintro,


    It's only a 2.5% speed increase for Adept (second tier stance)? How much does the first tier stance give you? If that's the case, then you're certainly right that 18Pally/2Mnk seems more desirable.


    I don't believe there is any Insight Bonus at tier 1 so while Haste is on the bonus would be nothing. Tier 2 is 2.5% I think... can't fully recall. It might be 2.5% per tier so 5% at tier 2 and 2.5% at tier 1



    The Longsword option also seems interesting (assuming they let longswords remain Centered Monk weapons). The Elf Enhancements to longswords would be great, but then I'm really running tight on AP allocation!


    I've got one of these waiting in the wings... but they are Kensai 2/Monk 6/Pal2

    Still though, one of the reasons I was going for handwraps was because I thought they got more attacks than even dual wielding weapons. Am I incorrect? Would dual wielding kamas, for example, with all the 2WF feats, yield the same number of attacks in the same time span as unarmed handwraps with all the 2WF feats?


    Unarmed TWF is indeed the faster form... but remember that Critical effects make up a dramatic amount of damage. Its something to think about



    Thanks again,
    Ngorongoro
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  8. #8
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    Hi Aesop,

    Thanks for the comments.

    Remember Flurry of Blows gives Monks extra BAB while using Ki Weapons ... including Unarmed... so your Attack Bonus is 2 higher
    So you're saying that my BAB at 16 for 10Pally/6Mnk would actually be 16? And not the 14 I showed in my calculations? Even better...

    Also remember PrEs tier 2 of the Paladin one and 1 for Monk (when Monk comes out)
    Thanks for the reminder, Aesop. I had completely forgotten about the possibility of a Monk Prestige Enhancement. That does turn the argument back in favor of 6 Monk levels.

    Remember that Monks havea Wisdom Enhancement as well.

    You may want to drop con by 1 Point and raise wis 1. +1 Tomes are pretty prevalent out there after all. Odd numbers shouldn't hurt in the long run.
    Yeah, when I was originally planning out the build, I took the 2 Monk Wisdom Bonuses (for +2 to Wis), but then it just didn't seem worth it, since I wasn't focused on AC or any Monk abilities that depended on Wisdom DC's. I thought the 6 AP's were better spent on other things.

    But I definitely see your point about taking Wis and Con to odd levels at first and just getting two +1 tomes.


    Thanks again,
    Ngorongoro

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngorongoro View Post
    So you're saying that my BAB at 16 for 10Pally/6Mnk would actually be 16? And not the 14 I showed in my calculations? Even better...
    No

    You're BAB will be 14. However, the effect of Flurry of Blows makes your BAB that of a fighter for your monk levels, as long as you are using a monk weapon. The increase to BAB is only counted for extra attacks, it does not help with acquiring feats earlier.
    [REDACTED]

  10. #10
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngorongoro View Post
    UMD: 16.5

    I could actually get my UMD to a decent level. If I took Skill Focus UMD and factor in Human Versatility, I could get it boosted to around 30.
    Example: 16.5 base + 3 Focus + 3 HV + 2 Heroism + 3 Golden Cartouche + 2 HGF = 29.5
    You can't get your base UMD to 16.5... Since neither monk nor paladin have UMD as a class skill, you'll be limited to a base UMD of 9.5 (11.5 at 20)

    Divine Sacrifice and Might are really situational, so I don't see myself using them that much. Divine Might will get turned on for Bosses. Sacrifice might be tossed in when I know I'm getting healed regularly (like Boss fights when I'm in the Mass Cure circle).
    DS and DM are not situational... DM II is +4 to damage on every hit...That's like equal to +8 strength... Not using DM as a paladin would be like a barbarian not using rage....

    Divine Sacrifice is something I use all the time... DS II is 7d6 light damage... an extra 7d6 every 3 seconds is well worth it...

    To be honest, I have no idea how many Smites I'll end up with at level 16. I get four extra from the Enhancements and Exalted Smite II reduces the cooldown to 4 seconds. I believe you regain a Smite every 90 seconds. I wonder if this will be enough to keep me Smiting at a regular interval (if I alternate with Stunning Blow) and what that interval would be...? At any rate, if I keep the 14 Pally / 6 Monk split, then I will advance to Exalted Smite III and Divine Sacrifice II by level 20.
    You'll have 6-7 Exalted Smites... I usually save them for a tough fight, not just boss monsters, but also when we're surrounded by a lot of trash mobs. One-shotting a enemy mob with a smite is very satsifying...

    And against end-bosses in most quests, you usually get a shrine before the last fight... Unloading all your smites and Divine Sacrifices on one boss kills them VERY fast...

    • Would you go 14Pal/6Mnk or 18Pal/2Mnk or some other split altogether? 14/6 to really be a "monk" paladin
    • Is Divine Sacrifice worth it? yes
    • Should I try to fit in Knight of the Chalice somehow with the next mod? Will I even have enough AP's? Fit it in.
    • Would a different race be better? I'd go drow for the bonuses to dex and cha
    • Is there a survivability issue? AC is nonexistent, HP is around 350 (depending on stances and buffs), Saves are in the low 30's (depending on buffs and items). Obviously not a solo build, but is the character too squishy? You'll be fine... evasion, high saves, and 4 Lay on Hands to compensate for a few bad moments
    • Forget it? Unworkable? Hopelessly gimped?? Looks like fun to me!
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  11. #11
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    Hi Thrudh,


    Thanks for the feedback!

    You can't get your base UMD to 16.5... Since neither monk nor paladin have UMD as a class skill, you'll be limited to a base UMD of 9.5 (11.5 at 20)
    Are you sure about this? From skill point allocation alone, my UMD at level 16 will be 9.5. Then, because my level 16 ending Charisma will be 24 (bonus of +7), that puts my UMD at 16.5. So, unbuffed and non-itemed UMD is 16.5, which seems like a decent number to work from (can get by race-restriction, maybe wand-whip Stoneskin, etc.).

    EDIT: I think we're actually agreeing here, but my use of the word "base" is throwing us off. I meant that my UMD would be 16.5 through skill point allocation plus Charisma bonus. Then, with buffs and items, that 16.5 can turn into a useful number.

    DS and DM are not situational... DM II is +4 to damage on every hit...That's like equal to +8 strength... Not using DM as a paladin would be like a barbarian not using rage....

    Divine Sacrifice is something I use all the time... DS II is 7d6 light damage... an extra 7d6 every 3 seconds is well worth it...
    I guess I meant that DM was situational only in the sense that it just lasts one minute and consumes a Turn Undead use. I'm not sure how many Turn Undead's I'll have at 14Pally/6Mnk with two extra Turns from Enhancements. But you're absolutely right, though -- if there's enough to go around and last, then I'll have it up for as often as I can.

    Divine Sacrifice concerned me only because it costs HP to use. Since I would have no AC to speak of and not the greatest HP in the world (especially Wind Stanced), I didn't know how much I could afford to weave it in between my Exalted Smiting and Stunning Blows.

    I was also thinking of Drow, but the flexibility of Humans to re-arrange stats was very enticing to me (for example, if I got lucky enough to loot +3 tomes down the road). Drow also seemed a bit squishier to me because of the hit to Con. And as I said, HP seems like my only "defense" really, so I wasn't sure how much I could afford to lose out on that.


    Thanks again!
    -Ngorongoro
    Last edited by Ngorongoro; 05-02-2009 at 03:23 PM.

  12. #12
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    Thrudh was only calculating Skill Ranks not a total Skill.


    at level 20 with only cross class ranks you can get 11.5 ranks (11 effectively)

    Charisma 24 (assuming no high tomes) = +7

    Greater Heroism +4

    Luck +1

    Golden Cartouche +3

    so with bare minimum effort you can have a 26 UMD

    and easily get higher (and that's not counting new items that haven't come out yet)

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    go 14paladin 6monk. (more WIS, movespeed, 2nd tier stances, access to MNK prestige should it come out)

    Take empowered healing instead of wf:bludgeon. (empower works on monk healing stuff like healing ki)

    Do not take exalted smite. Max out your Divine Sacrifice. (exalted is good for weapons with strong crits, its a waste of precious AP for you. unless you can consistently stun your enemies, exalted is a MAJOR waste)

    Spam curse of healing, healing ki, and divine sacrifice. (you will still net healing out of this)

    Have you considered stunning fist over stunning blow? (it adds your monk level to the DC, though both these skills help the party more than you)

    For DPS, go Knight of the Chalice.

    For Skills, max your Diplo since you have no AC. Then get jump tumble balance(maxed), concentration(maxed) etc.

    WF and Halfling are both excellent choices for this build and will get you more DPS.
    Last edited by Shroonith; 05-02-2009 at 10:40 PM.

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    Hi Shroonith,


    Thanks for the suggestions!

    Take empowered healing instead of wf:bludgeon. (empower works on monk healing stuff like healing ki)...Spam curse of healing, healing ki, and divine sacrifice. (you will still net healing out of this)
    This is an interesting strategy that I had not considered. To be honest, I don't know much about Monks. Is the "curse of healing" that you are referring to the Fists of Light enhancement that applies a healing shield to my target? The DDO Compendium description wasn't too clear about it. At first, I thought it might only affect Undead, and the wording seemed to suggest that only my allies could get healed by attacking the target. Does it work against all enemies? And I will be able to benefit from the healing shield as well? What is the healing effect (the Compendium doesn't list any numbers)?

    Also, Healing Ki states that it is only a finishing move. How regularly will I be able to use it?

    Do not take exalted smite. Max out your Divine Sacrifice. (exalted is good for weapons with strong crits, its a waste of precious AP for you. unless you can consistently stun your enemies, exalted is a MAJOR waste)
    Unfortunately, at only 10 levels of Pally (current cap), I can only open up Divine Sacrifice I. Even at 14Pally/6Mnk with the next mod, I can only get Divine Sacrifice II. I was eyeing the Exalted Smite as the main source of making up the below-average DPS of handwraps. And I'm still wary of giving up HP's to make an attack. After just 10 attacks, I'm down 100 hit points!

    But if the healing stuff works out like you say, then maybe that isn't much of a concern. And you think I'll actually net a positive gain of HP out of it? It seems like something definitely worth experimenting with.

    So, my "assembly line" of attacks could go something like this:
    1. Try to stun first.
    2. Apply Fists of Light.
    3. Divine Sacrifice.
    4. Exalted Smite.
    5. Regular attacks while cooldowns go.
    6. Maybe toss in a Finishing move if ready.
    7. Repeat.

    Have you considered stunning fist over stunning blow? (it adds your monk level to the DC, though both these skills help the party more than you)
    I looked at Stunning Fist as my third Monk feat, but it didn't seem worth it. With only six Monk levels and a low Wisdom, my DC comes to: 10 + 3 + 3 (or maybe 4). It seems like I'd be far more likely to land a Stunning Blow (based off of Strength and with Weighted Handwraps) than a Stunning Fist. But it would be nice to have another attack in the rotation above.

    For DPS, go Knight of the Chalice.
    This is definitely something I'm considering. I'll have to wait to the next mod to make a decision of course. If my AP's allow it, I'll definitely try to fit it in (maybe make some sacrifices elsewhere).

    For Skills, max your Diplo since you have no AC. Then get jump tumble balance(maxed), concentration(maxed) etc.
    Believe me, I wish I could fit Diplo in. But with no attribute points allocated to Intelligence, my skill points are kind of meager (on the Paladin side). Even the Monk points (4 each Monk level) aren't enough to cover Jump, Balance, Concentration, UMD and Diplo. Maybe if I'm lucky enough to loot a +2 Int Tome soon, I can try...

    WF and Halfling are both excellent choices for this build and will get you more DPS.
    For Warforged, I'm guessing you mean an increase to DPS coming from the WF Power Attack Enhancements? Those will further decrease my to-hit, though, right? At only about 30 self-buffed, I'm not sure how much more I want to lose on to-hits.

    I'm not sure how Halfling gets me more DPS than the Human variation. Especially considering that I'd have to pump way more stat points into Strength to begin with just to bring Halfling Strength up to par. Seems like I'd have to give up too much elsewhere. But maybe I'm missing something...


    Thanks again!
    -Ngorongoro

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    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngorongoro View Post
    Hi Shroonith,


    Thanks for the suggestions!


    This is an interesting strategy that I had not considered. To be honest, I don't know much about Monks. Is the "curse of healing" that you are referring to the Fists of Light enhancement that applies a healing shield to my target? The DDO Compendium description wasn't too clear about it. At first, I thought it might only affect Undead, and the wording seemed to suggest that only my allies could get healed by attacking the target. Does it work against all enemies? And I will be able to benefit from the healing shield as well? What is the healing effect (the Compendium doesn't list any numbers)?

    Also, Healing Ki states that it is only a finishing move. How regularly will I be able to use it?


    FoL (Fist of Light) is the Healing Effect where each time after that you strike the opponent you gain a couple of hp back. Healing Ki is the Finishing Move. I'm not sure whether or not Healing Ki still works with Metamagic Feat. It did at one point and it still works with "Potency" items, however I'm not sure about the Metamagics. I can't remember what the formula is for Healing Ki right now either. I know I've healed 15 or so hp with successive strikes on my lower level Monk with FoL active and Healing Ki I've hit for more than 30 on a Human level 6 Monk with 2 Improved recovery Ranks


    Unfortunately, at only 10 levels of Pally (current cap), I can only open up Divine Sacrifice I. Even at 14Pally/6Mnk with the next mod, I can only get Divine Sacrifice II. I was eyeing the Exalted Smite as the main source of making up the below-average DPS of handwraps. And I'm still wary of giving up HP's to make an attack. After just 10 attacks, I'm down 100 hit points!

    But if the healing stuff works out like you say, then maybe that isn't much of a concern. And you think I'll actually net a positive gain of HP out of it? It seems like something definitely worth experimenting with.

    Definately worth the experiment.


    So, my "assembly line" of attacks could go something like this:
    1. Try to stun first.
    2. Apply Fists of Light.
    3. Divine Sacrifice.
    4. Exalted Smite.
    5. Regular attacks while cooldowns go.
    6. Maybe toss in a Finishing move if ready.
    7. Repeat.


    I think it maybe closer to something like

    1. Stun (if successful go to 4)
    2. FoL
    3. DS (or ES if available)
    4. Attack
    5. Reapply FoL (or use Healing Ki if available)
    6. Return to Step 1



    I looked at Stunning Fist as my third Monk feat, but it didn't seem worth it. With only six Monk levels and a low Wisdom, my DC comes to: 10 + 3 + 3 (or maybe 4). It seems like I'd be far more likely to land a Stunning Blow (based off of Strength and with Weighted Handwraps) than a Stunning Fist. But it would be nice to have another attack in the rotation above.

    For the level of Monk and Wis you are looking at Stunning Blow is a better Choice



    This is definitely something I'm considering. I'll have to wait to the next mod to make a decision of course. If my AP's allow it, I'll definitely try to fit it in (maybe make some sacrifices elsewhere).

    All else fails maybe consider HotD as it has fewer requirments and the first tier give Ghost Touch to all attacks ... could be nice to have in certain quests.


    Believe me, I wish I could fit Diplo in. But with no attribute points allocated to Intelligence, my skill points are kind of meager (on the Paladin side). Even the Monk points (4 each Monk level) aren't enough to cover Jump, Balance, Concentration, UMD and Diplo. Maybe if I'm lucky enough to loot a +2 Int Tome soon, I can try...

    Good reason to consider upping your Int by 1-3 points. Humans get an Extra Skill Point per level also. Diplo could be a godsend for a build like this. By the upper levels you should be able to get a +2 or higher tome. Heck my Fighter just gota +3 Int tome as a 20th Reward for Shroud. Important though is Concentration, Diplo, and UMD. Balance and Jump you can get away with a little less on. Just get 10 Ranks or over and don't worry about it.


    For Warforged, I'm guessing you mean an increase to DPS coming from the WF Power Attack Enhancements? Those will further decrease my to-hit, though, right? At only about 30 self-buffed, I'm not sure how much more I want to lose on to-hits.

    Yeah Power Attack Enhancments +3 to Damage -3 to Hit. Unless you are going to be soloing a lot with this you can usually count on having at least Greater Heroism cast upon you in any Elite Content


    I'm not sure how Halfling gets me more DPS than the Human variation. Especially considering that I'd have to pump way more stat points into Strength to begin with just to bring Halfling Strength up to par. Seems like I'd have to give up too much elsewhere. But maybe I'm missing something...

    Sneak Attack my friend. Halfling Guile. with full ranks an extra +8 damage on each successful Sneak Attack. This is a reason why Diplomacy is important for this build. Even without the Halfling you can still get Backstabbing items that can add upto another 8 damage. Humans have other things going for them but halflings are sneaky lil bastards that love the crotch shot.


    Thanks again!
    -Ngorongoro


    Aesop
    Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff
    Rule 2: Its all small stuff
    Rule 3: People are stupid. You, me everyone... expect it
    more rules to come in a different sig

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    This is an interesting strategy that I had not considered. To be honest, I don't know much about Monks. Is the "curse of healing" that you are referring to the Fists of Light enhancement that applies a healing shield to my target? The DDO Compendium description wasn't too clear about it. At first, I thought it might only affect Undead, and the wording seemed to suggest that only my allies could get healed by attacking the target. Does it work against all enemies? And I will be able to benefit from the healing shield as well? What is the healing effect (the Compendium doesn't list any numbers)?

    Also, Healing Ki states that it is only a finishing move. How regularly will I be able to use it?

    -------Fists of Light applies curse of healing, which heals each person who hits him for 1d2 damage every hit. When used 3 times in a row, it allows you to perform the healing ki finishing move, an aoe heal for 1d4+4 per 2 mnk levels.


    Unfortunately, at only 10 levels of Pally (current cap), I can only open up Divine Sacrifice I. Even at 14Pally/6Mnk with the next mod, I can only get Divine Sacrifice II. I was eyeing the Exalted Smite as the main source of making up the below-average DPS of handwraps. And I'm still wary of giving up HP's to make an attack. After just 10 attacks, I'm down 100 hit points!

    -------Exalted smite, and any smite evil for that matter, replenishes at a rate of 1/90seconds, and you only get a few to start with. It will help on bosses, but only slightly. Your crits are 19-20x2, with ES III, that will be a 18-20x4, 10-12 times in a boss fight. For 7AP, thats not worth it IMO. You still gain the exact base damage from a normal smite.

    But if the healing stuff works out like you say, then maybe that isn't much of a concern. And you think I'll actually net a positive gain of HP out of it? It seems like something definitely worth experimenting with.

    ------You WILL gain HP if you spam fists of light. Especially if your spamming healing Ki. With human+monk recovery+paladin devotion+devotion item+empowered im sure you could self heal for 60ish a pop.



    Believe me, I wish I could fit Diplo in. But with no attribute points allocated to Intelligence, my skill points are kind of meager (on the Paladin side). Even the Monk points (4 each Monk level) aren't enough to cover Jump, Balance, Concentration, UMD and Diplo. Maybe if I'm lucky enough to loot a +2 Int Tome soon, I can try...

    --------Get the tome, go Diplo.

    For Warforged, I'm guessing you mean an increase to DPS coming from the WF Power Attack Enhancements? Those will further decrease my to-hit, though, right? At only about 30 self-buffed, I'm not sure how much more I want to lose on to-hits.

    -------Your to-hit will be fine. WF PA and Bladesworn Transformation, are uber. Consider handwrap usage like a free +2 to hit over TWF. High STR, divine favor (+3), +2vs EO, etc.


    I'm not sure how Halfling gets me more DPS than the Human variation. Especially considering that I'd have to pump way more stat points into Strength to begin with just to bring Halfling Strength up to par. Seems like I'd have to give up too much elsewhere. But maybe I'm missing something...

    ------+8 Sneak attack damage from enhancements.
    Last edited by Shroonith; 05-03-2009 at 12:37 AM.

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    You guys have definitely given me a lot to think about here. The whole self-healing thing seems like a great way to sustain myself in fights, also allowing for the nice extra damage from being able to use Divine Sacrifice freely.

    I had never thought about Halfling Guile before. Let me see if I can tinker with a Halfling variation to see how the AP's would play out...

    I think the nice thing that's coming through from all these suggestions is that (other than possibly the race of the character), most of the options for me center around the Enhancements, which are easy to experiment with. The feats are pretty much set (with maybe a Metamagic swapped in). Since the Enhancement system is flexible, I can actually test out a bunch of different variations till I find a happy combination.

    Also, about that Metamagic feat choice, would Maximize affect Healing Ki (or is it like a Cleric's Heal)?


    Thanks again
    -Ngorongoro

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    Let me throw this out there and see what you guys think of it.
    12 fighter
    2 pally
    6 monk
    bludgeon weapon focus/greater focus +2 to hit
    bludgeon weapon specialization greater specialization +4 to damage.
    twf specced.
    Fighter kensai 2 (possible fist for focused weapon) +8 to str
    stunnig blow
    6 monk gets tier 2 wind stance.

    I have been thinking about this for one my human fighter for a while Or going 12 ftr 6 pally and 2 monk. i am currently 12/2/2 bludgeon specced using greensteel warhammers.
    “If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles" TsunTzu

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    Let me throw this out there and see what you guys think of it.
    12 fighter
    2 pally
    6 monk
    bludgeon weapon focus/greater focus +2 to hit
    bludgeon weapon specialization greater specialization +4 to damage.
    twf specced.
    Fighter kensai 2 (possible fist for focused weapon) +8 to str
    stunnig blow
    6 monk gets tier 2 wind stance.

    I have been thinking about this for one my human fighter for a while Or going 12 ftr 6 pally and 2 monk. i am currently 12/2/2 bludgeon specced using greensteel warhammers.
    I certainly see where you're coming from with this one, Baddax. The Fighter speed boosts, the Kensai bonuses, and the feat specializations would definitely add up to more DPS. By the way, the Prestige description for Kensai says that the Insight Bonus only lasts a "short" time. Any idea what that is?

    If you went the remaining four levels as Monk (meaning 12Ftr/2Pal/6Mnk), that would open up the Fists of Light and Healing Ki. That would allow the self-healing option that Shroonith was talking about.

    How about 12Ftr/4Pal/4Mnk? You'd still get the Fists of Light and Healing Ki, but also a (minimal) Divine Favor and some extra Pally stuff, like another Lay on Hands and Immunity to Fear and Disease.

    I've always been kind of partial to Paladins, though, so that's why I used Pally as the main foundation for my concept. But I think Fighter is definitely an option (and might actually be better from a melee standpoint).


    Thanks,
    Ngorongoro

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    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    Let me throw this out there and see what you guys think of it.
    12 fighter
    2 pally
    6 monk
    bludgeon weapon focus/greater focus +2 to hit
    bludgeon weapon specialization greater specialization +4 to damage.
    twf specced.
    Fighter kensai 2 (possible fist for focused weapon) +8 to str
    stunnig blow
    6 monk gets tier 2 wind stance.

    I have been thinking about this for one my human fighter for a while Or going 12 ftr 6 pally and 2 monk. i am currently 12/2/2 bludgeon specced using greensteel warhammers.
    I've got almost the same thing in the works... however it is waiting on Whirling Steel Strike (Ki: LongSword) to be available then I'll make my Elven Whirling Dervish of DDOooooooom!1!111!1

    Should be fun

    Aesop
    Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff
    Rule 2: Its all small stuff
    Rule 3: People are stupid. You, me everyone... expect it
    more rules to come in a different sig

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