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Thread: Lag: DETAILS

  1. #41
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanimal View Post
    GREAT question! The information could be important to debuggers. This was actually a slow run -- my guild was teaching me the quest and were stopping to kill everything. I don't think we left anything alive or trailed any monsters around.
    Perhaps though if the other parties that you are sharing your server with is doing a lot of non-killing, they are using up CPU cycles and causing your instance to suffer as well. It could be there load balancing doesn't do a good job accounting for the potential CPU overload of certain play styles?

    of course, this is only 1 of about a million possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron View Post
    I suspect most of the "Lag" is really latency. Will be harder to fix.

    Network Engineer by trade....
    It might be latency, but not based on what the client meter is telling me (us). My network latency floats from 45-70 ms, and does not coorelate to the lag experienced in game. It could be latency between frontend and backend servers, but my DDO client is not reporting huge spikes (or loss) in latency.
    Some of my worst lag comes when I have the lowest latency ~50ms... then other times its smooth at 70 ms.... even smooth at 150 ms.....
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    We're already working on fixes for lag issues, but unfortunately it is not as simple as flipping a switch and making it go away.
    Tarrant thanks for your time to respond.

    I took your statement to mean that you have at least knowledge of "what" is causing lag for so many players. Is there anything there that you can share? Are there certain game behaviors, for example, which help contribute to lag?
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  4. #44
    Community Member Beherit_Baphomar's Avatar
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    Just incase you dont know, Turbine, but it would prolly be a good idea to stop all work on MOD9 and fix The Lag.

    If you drop MOD9 and ****'s still acting this way it will be one of the worst move's you've ever made....and y'all have made some pretty bad move's.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    You hit the nail on the head.

    Guys, we know lag makes the game frustrating to play. We take a lot of pride in this game, and want you all to have the ultimate DDO experience. We want the lag eradicated. We're already working on fixes for lag issues, but unfortunately it is not as simple as flipping a switch and making it go away. These things take time, and we're going to need a little more.

    Hang in there, we're doing everything we can, and we appreciate your patience.
    Ok, so it's not flip a switch. It's flip a switch (shut down), unplug, carry back to the older non-sucktastic data center, plug in, flip switch back on.

    Ever since you switched data centers, prime-time raiding has been almost impossible.

  6. #46
    Community Member Jefro's Avatar
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    Some of the shroud lag is contribute to combat log, mostly with alot of dual attacking rangers in the group of 12. Could there be way for combat be handled more separately from other data loads?
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  7. #47
    Community Member Baron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartikus View Post
    It might be latency, but not based on what the client meter is telling me (us). My network latency floats from 45-70 ms, and does not coorelate to the lag experienced in game. It could be latency between frontend and backend servers, but my DDO client is not reporting huge spikes (or loss) in latency.
    Some of my worst lag comes when I have the lowest latency ~50ms... then other times its smooth at 70 ms.... even smooth at 150 ms.....

    I will make a diagram and post it. The latency issues I am concerned with are at the Turbine end. Real latency will not record on your NIC. ISP lag will.

    A short swift example below and then I must head home. I will explain better tonight.

    Lets assume all the players have just replaced thier machines and all the players are using the same type computer with all the same options, same operating system and the same programs loaded in memory. Wifes have been booted off the network...Next door neighbors have been evicted if you are on a cable connection....

    Lets look at network connections. each - is up to 10 milliseconds

    Player1--ISP-Major Backbone1----5th Backbone----TurbineISP (Fibre to home)
    Player2--ISP---Major Backbone1---5th Backbone----TurbineISP (Work T1)
    Player3--ISP-----Major Backbone2----5th Backbone----TurbineISP(Cable20mbs)
    Player4--ISP---------Major Backbone2----5th Backbone----TurbineISP(DSL10mbs)
    Player5--ISP------------Major Backbone3----6th Backbone----TurbineISP(ISDN)
    Player6--ISP---------------Major Backbone4----6th Backbone----TurbineISP(Sat)

    Above is where ISP lag comes from. Player 4 hits the turbine ISP 80 milliseconds later than player 1. Player 2 up to 40 ms later than player 1. This is not a big a deal as it looks. The turbine software does take this into account. Players 5 and 6 will have some problems but can still play. Notice that once you get to a major backbone things are pretty much the same. This is real network provider lag and it show when you hover over the icon on your screen. There are two other things which need to be explained which are not shown by hovering over the icon.

    I will get to that later. The () at the end is what type of connection each player has to his home or workplace if playing from there, perish the thought.

  8. #48
    Community Member Yuhjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    You hit the nail on the head.

    Guys, we know lag makes the game frustrating to play. We take a lot of pride in this game, and want you all to have the ultimate DDO experience. We want the lag eradicated. We're already working on fixes for lag issues, but unfortunately it is not as simple as flipping a switch and making it go away. These things take time, and we're going to need a little more.

    Hang in there, we're doing everything we can, and we appreciate your patience.

    What hasnt been said that needs to be is that lag would be greatly reduced by an investment in hardware. There is a limit to what software can do, and thinking that you can just keep optimizing code forever to "erradicate" lag is absurd.

    Lag will be "fixed" when Turbine gives us more hardware.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuhjn View Post
    What hasnt been said that needs to be is that lag would be greatly reduced by an investment in hardware. There is a limit to what software can do, and thinking that you can just keep optimizing code forever to "erradicate" lag is absurd.

    Lag will be "fixed" when Turbine gives us more hardware.
    The problem is we do not know where the lag is originating, you can have massive hardware, but have incorrectly cofigured NICS' or routers throughput can be attrocious given the right conditions
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanimal View Post
    Just remembered something else that might matter: During this entire experience, there was never any noticeable voice lag -- we continued to be able to converse about how wonderful the lag was.

    In my experience, whenever I've experienced obvious client-side lag, my voice has also lagged.
    Correct. That is the big kicker to see if you have client side lag or if it is server side lag. The likely hood of two separate, both geologically and hardware wise, servers hitting the can at the same time is pretty low.

    So if you lag and have voice chat lag then it is a client problem.

    If you lag and there is no voice chat lag then it may be a server lag issue.
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    I think this (copied from other thread) is an indication that the problem cannot be explained by latency alone ...

    Monday 10:30 Thelanis - Visions - Just stop dead, frozen, no spells, lag mixed with delayed spells, studder lag (which is the best it got).

    Interesting note - during the duration of the first bad freeze (1st 4 Orthons) we noticed normal sent data but the recv data was holding above 5000 Bps for the duration.

    That can't be good
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by stockwizard5 View Post
    I think this (copied from other thread) is an indication that the problem cannot be explained by latency alone ...

    Monday 10:30 Thelanis - Visions - Just stop dead, frozen, no spells, lag mixed with delayed spells, studder lag (which is the best it got).

    Interesting note - during the duration of the first bad freeze (1st 4 Orthons) we noticed normal sent data but the recv data was holding above 5000 Bps for the duration.

    That can't be good
    5000?? Hell, I'll get 14k Bps in Shroud with 94.5% loss....but latency never changes.
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  13. #53
    Community Member Raithe's Avatar
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    I got the really bad lag for the first time yesterday, and after reading the OP, I'm inclined to think its a hardware problem.

    The lag seems isolated to an instance. Once you recall out and create a new instance, the lag can completely disappear (and I would recommend doing just that anytime a significant amount of lag is encountered.) I was in a horrible instance of Rainbow in the Dark, we wiped, and when we went back in just 10 or so minutes later we completed without so much as a peep of lag as far as I could tell. Also, certain public instances on Thelanis are contaminated, and it becomes obvious running around which ones to avoid as much as possible (right now House Deneith is bad).

    I don't know how instances get divided up on their hardware/processors, but I'm thinking that some of the hardware that runs Thelanis is not working efficiently.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turial View Post
    Correct. That is the big kicker to see if you have client side lag or if it is server side lag. The likely hood of two separate, both geologically and hardware wise, servers hitting the can at the same time is pretty low.

    So if you lag and have voice chat lag then it is a client problem.

    If you lag and there is no voice chat lag then it may be a server lag issue.

    Incorrect since voice chat is a completely different server.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raithe View Post
    I got the really bad lag for the first time yesterday, and after reading the OP, I'm inclined to think its a hardware problem.

    The lag seems isolated to an instance. Once you recall out and create a new instance, the lag can completely disappear (and I would recommend doing just that anytime a significant amount of lag is encountered.) I was in a horrible instance of Rainbow in the Dark, we wiped, and when we went back in just 10 or so minutes later we completed without so much as a peep of lag as far as I could tell. Also, certain public instances on Thelanis are contaminated, and it becomes obvious running around which ones to avoid as much as possible (right now House Deneith is bad).

    I don't know how instances get divided up on their hardware/processors, but I'm thinking that some of the hardware that runs Thelanis is not working efficiently.
    If you are moved to the right server on the cluster you wont have lag. Wrong server and you will. Solution is more servers in the cluster so there are less instances per server.

  16. #56
    Community Member Mercules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahpook View Post
    Perhaps though if the other parties that you are sharing your server with is doing a lot of non-killing, they are using up CPU cycles and causing your instance to suffer as well. It could be there load balancing doesn't do a good job accounting for the potential CPU overload of certain play styles?

    of course, this is only 1 of about a million possibilities.
    This was my immediate thought. I wonder if Instances are farmed out to particular servers. "Thelonis - Shroud instance goes to Server X, Water Works to server Y." Get a popular instance with a lot of people running it, get some of them saying, "Run past and we will Firewall at the end." and we suddenly get a lot of processes going on for a particular blade. Everyone with an instance on that blade gets lagged as it catches up.


    I remember the days of duo-ing the Catacombs and running past mobs in Dryden's Tomb and ending up rerunning that quest because after about 100 spawns it lagged so badly we couldn't move, only die and recall.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    You hit the nail on the head.

    Guys, we know lag makes the game frustrating to play. We take a lot of pride in this game, and want you all to have the ultimate DDO experience. We want the lag eradicated. We're already working on fixes for lag issues, but unfortunately it is not as simple as flipping a switch and making it go away. These things take time, and we're going to need a little more.

    Hang in there, we're doing everything we can, and we appreciate your patience.

    Thanks for the clairity. Most of us know ya'll are doing what you can. Good luck.
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  18. #58
    Community Member Yuhjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercules View Post
    This was my immediate thought. I wonder if Instances are farmed out to particular servers. "Thelonis - Shroud instance goes to Server X, Water Works to server Y." Get a popular instance with a lot of people running it, get some of them saying, "Run past and we will Firewall at the end." and we suddenly get a lot of processes going on for a particular blade. Everyone with an instance on that blade gets lagged as it catches up.


    I remember the days of duo-ing the Catacombs and running past mobs in Dryden's Tomb and ending up rerunning that quest because after about 100 spawns it lagged so badly we couldn't move, only die and recall.

    No, the farming out of instances is based on current server load on each of the servers in your world's cluster. So your "server", ie, Thelonis is served by a cluster of physical servers. Then a new instance is created, there would be a (probably simple) algoritm that looks for a low load server on the cluster and sends the instance there.

    How this load balancing is done is anyone's guess. It's possible that 12 people standing in an instance waiting for buffs creates low traffic and shows low load on the server, until they start banging portals, by which time it might be too late... or that could be completely wrong and there just are not enough server cycles in the cluster to go around. Only Turbine knows how their clusters are load balanced.

    But I'm telling you, the fix is double the hardware. To which business probably just says "not in the budget, sorry, do what you can in software". To which the PR people tell you, the player, that "we're working on it but it's really hard". And they probably are, but not very hard because there isnt a whole lot they can do in software at this point. They've already dumbed down the AI to the point it can hardly find you anymore... more "optimizations" are just going to be bad for gameplay more than lag is. /shurg.
    Last edited by Yuhjn; 03-12-2009 at 04:25 PM.

  19. #59
    Hall of Famer & Hero DoctorWhofan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    OK, well...in the spirit of the OP (at least i hope it is), here's what my group has experienced lately:

    In general, very little lag - occasional little spikes where everyone will freeze in place for a second or two, then resume normal play. One of the players in the group (in PA - we have 2 in PA, 2 in MD & 1 in CA) has frequent, noticeable lag that affects gameplay; the other player in the same house does not - presumably her computer and not their ISP is the culprit here. Once recently she also had severe VC lag (during a run of Tomb of the Shadow Knight). Notably, this same player until recently could not enter the Necropolis without having severe graphics issues that made the game completely unplayable. I think she either changed some settings or upgraded a video card to deal with that issue. All her lag issues have been since that change.

    We don't zerg - we go slow and kill everything. We also don't use a lot of big flashy magical effects (the occasional web or firewall, haven't got cloudkill or acid fog yet, and never did use hypnotic pattern). [edit - oh, yeah, one other thing - we play on Khyber]

    No idea whether any of this will be useful, but no harm in providing info.
    I think there is some justification of this. I recently ran a quest with twice wit htwo different groups. One Zerged and the other did not. We had less and less lag (not totally gone, mind you) in the non-zerging group.

    HOWEVER, the lag that everyone seems to put everyone in synch (ie Part 1 shroud) is still there.

    Hope that helps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarrant View Post
    You hit the nail on the head.

    Guys, we know lag makes the game frustrating to play. We take a lot of pride in this game, and want you all to have the ultimate DDO experience. We want the lag eradicated. We're already working on fixes for lag issues, but unfortunately it is not as simple as flipping a switch and making it go away. These things take time, and we're going to need a little more.

    Hang in there, we're doing everything we can, and we appreciate your patience.
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