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  1. #1
    Community Member dragonoffrost's Avatar
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    Default A thought about design flaws in DDO

    I really like this game. With the latest updates on Capstones and PrE's I have to say the devs missed the boat on two rules from PnP that should have been included in this game from Day 1.

    First is the Multiclassing restrictions from PnP. The relaxing of said rules are the reason we see so many splash builds made. Some wouldn't care about the xp penalties since XP is easy to get in DDO but others would shy away from creatings a build that takes a xp hit for skirting a rule.

    The second is rangers being able to focus in both Ranged and Melee combat at the same time. In pen and paper you made a choice whether you were a ranged combat ranger or a twf melee ranger. Without this rule rangers are overpowered in DDO. Of course with this rule ranged combat still would be mostly ignored due to rate of fire issues.
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  2. #2
    Community Member croger1520033's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonoffrost View Post
    I really like this game. With the latest updates on Capstones and PrE's I have to say the devs missed the boat on two rules from PnP that should have been included in this game from Day 1.

    First is the Multiclassing restrictions from PnP. The relaxing of said rules are the reason we see so many splash builds made. Some wouldn't care about the xp penalties since XP is easy to get in DDO but others would shy away from creatings a build that takes a xp hit for skirting a rule.

    The second is rangers being able to focus in both Ranged and Melee combat at the same time. In pen and paper you made a choice whether you were a ranged combat ranger or a twf melee ranger. Without this rule rangers are overpowered in DDO. Of course with this rule ranged combat still would be mostly ignored due to rate of fire issues.
    I don't think you have grasped rangers very well.

    1. How many times do you see that ranger in the group whip out a bow and go to town??

    2. The rate of fire of ranged is so slow it in no way overpowers rangers.

    3. Most do choose whether or not they are ranged or melee, the fact is just about everyone in this game carries some type of ranged weapon, it doesn't mean they all run around shooting it all the time.

    My ranger uses her bow I think maybe 1 or twice in the shroud. First is part 3 for all of 20 secs. Second, is part 4 when I jump out to avoid the blades. Other than that Ranged combat for a tempest ranger is useless.

    So to recap a tempest ranger, one who chose melee as his path rarely uses a bow. I am sure there are many ranged rangers out there who rarely use a sword, just cause you think something makes another gimped or overpowered doesn't make it a fact.

  3. #3
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    I disagree. XP penalties are irrelevant for the vast majority of people. Even a 40% cut from a X/1/1 wouldn't slow these builds down.

    The only real mistakes IMO were:

    1) Loot-flation. Shroud items are the most glaring, but all in all everything should be 50x rarer. As my own friends have noticed, chests are boring and useless, and the only time we got excited about them agian was for gold coins in the festival, for the minute chance of a +4 tome. Right now even +2 tomes are meh, and there are less than 5 random generated items that are worth looting chests for (+X w/p rapier, +X w/p ss, high + banisher rapiers, +2 tomes, and umm... maybe +8 armour bracers).

    Too late to fix this now, though if there is ever a DDO2 I would suggest utter poverty from chests.

    2) Enhancements. WAY overpowered. Some glaring examples are crit rage 2, and tempest 1. I still can't belive they didnt nerf tempest 1, and are instead making similar mistakes in the form of 10% fighter alacrity (main reason is there shouldnt be such a difference from lvl 19 to 20), and paladin zeal. If it wasnt for loot-flation and enhancments gone amuck, paladins and fighters wouldnt need 10% speed increases to be worthwhile. Now the ONLY class that cannot have +10% speed increase is rogues. Their one ability in combat is to be utterly devastating in sneak attacks, but as of now they are barely adequate on 0% fort monsters, and may as well be deleted every time a dev utters the words "50% or better fortification", "red named construct", or "red/purple named undead".

    Again, too late to fix this. The devs had a damn good chance during the enhancemnet overhaul, too bad they went the wrong direction.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithic View Post
    1) Loot-flation. Shroud items are the most glaring, but all in all everything should be 50x rarer.
    The biggest problem with DDO's loot isn't the rate at which stuff drops from quests, but the fact that other characters can hand it to you.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithic View Post
    1) Loot-flation. Shroud items are the most glaring, but all in all everything should be 50x rarer.
    Rarity is not the problem. It's the fact that you can actually have those that is the problem.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Nevthial's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Rarity is not the problem. It's the fact that you can actually have those that is the problem.
    QFT ~ should be rare , bound , and exclusive

    Monty Haul Loot is at the root !
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  7. #7
    Community Member Yurtrus's Avatar
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    I think the biggest problem with DDO is whiners like you all.. This is over powered ( girly voice ) and this should be this way and that should be that way and I don't like that he has one and I don't. Do us all a favor and STHUp and play the game the way it is..

    Damn cry babies only make things worse by opening up your mouths.

  8. #8
    Community Member Laith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yurtrus View Post
    I think the biggest problem with DDO is whiners like you all.. This is over powered ( girly voice ) and this should be this way and that should be that way and I don't like that he has one and I don't. Do us all a favor and STHUp and play the game the way it is..

    Damn cry babies only make things worse by opening up your mouths.
    meanwhile, i hope you enjoy at least a few of the changes that have come in direct response to player criticism.

    Casters and clerics, for instance, used to get less SP at high levels than it used to take to cast a single one of their new spells. Boy, was that awesome!
    Last edited by Laith; 03-06-2009 at 04:43 PM.

  9. #9
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    The biggest design flaw in DDO is more MMO related than PnP. Cheap magic commodities of all sorts, especially healing. The second is easy XP is way too easy.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    The biggest problem with DDO's loot isn't the rate at which stuff drops from quests, but the fact that other characters can hand it to you.
    all loot binding would be a huge flaw and ruin the feel of imersion


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  11. #11
    Community Member Trillea's Avatar
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    Default I love DDO and have been playing since Beta.

    But there are 2 ways that DDO has completely screwed up from day 1.

    The first one is giving a second attack at base attack 1. You are not supposed to have a second attack until you have reached base attack 6.

    The second thing they screwed up on (and this is the BIG one) is the way the extra attacks work - they should not get +5 to hit for each extra attack but *gasp* -5! Now I see how this would be death for an action-based game but is the main reason that mobs in DDO have way-too-inflated ACs and HPs. You are *NOT SUPPOSED* to be able to hit with EVERY SINGLE SWING! If they had never implemented this craziness from the start, then the game would have been more balanced across the classes.

    As it is since we are getting overly-inflated attack bonuses the MOBs are getting even more inflated ACs and HPs because they are all rolling to not roll a 1 in most situations. Since the melees are hitting on 19 out of 20 swings the HPs of the mobs have to be astronomical to make boss fights last more than a minute or so.

    This is causing spellcasters such as wizards and sorcerers lament because as they gain levels they fall farther and farther behind the DPS curve. That is why wounding and puncturing is so popular now, it makes NO SENSE to DPS a mob down any time after about Gianthold. It is way too late to fix it now but this is the root problem of many of the symptoms we are dealing with now.

    Just my 2cp, and I must repeat, I still love DDO and am utterly addicted to it.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    But there are 2 ways that DDO has completely screwed up from day 1.

    The first one is giving a second attack at base attack 1. You are not supposed to have a second attack until you have reached base attack 6.

    The second thing they screwed up on (and this is the BIG one) is the way the extra attacks work - they should not get +5 to hit for each extra attack but *gasp* -5! Now I see how this would be death for an action-based game but is the main reason that mobs in DDO have way-too-inflated ACs and HPs. You are *NOT SUPPOSED* to be able to hit with EVERY SINGLE SWING! If they had never implemented this craziness from the start, then the game would have been more balanced across the classes.

    As it is since we are getting overly-inflated attack bonuses the MOBs are getting even more inflated ACs and HPs because they are all rolling to not roll a 1 in most situations. Since the melees are hitting on 19 out of 20 swings the HPs of the mobs have to be astronomical to make boss fights last more than a minute or so.

    This is causing spellcasters such as wizards and sorcerers lament because as they gain levels they fall farther and farther behind the DPS curve. That is why wounding and puncturing is so popular now, it makes NO SENSE to DPS a mob down any time after about Gianthold. It is way too late to fix it now but this is the root problem of many of the symptoms we are dealing with now.

    Just my 2cp, and I must repeat, I still love DDO and am utterly addicted to it.
    OMG, I'm so happy someone shares my sentiments. I call the "second swing" the root of (almost) all evil for this game.

    edit: Well minus one thing. I like the currently implemented progressive combos. But that second attack should still go away!
    Last edited by ev77; 03-15-2009 at 03:07 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ev77 View Post
    OMG, I'm so happy someone shares my sentiments. I call the "second swing" the root of (almost) all evil for this game.
    you can't be serious....

    are you?

    really?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    you can't be serious....

    are you?

    really?
    Not exactly, I missed the fact they wanted regressive combos. I agree, progressive combos are the way to go!

  15. #15
    Community Member Locke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trillea View Post
    But there are 2 ways that DDO has completely screwed up from day 1.

    The first one is giving a second attack at base attack 1. You are not supposed to have a second attack until you have reached base attack 6.

    The second thing they screwed up on (and this is the BIG one) is the way the extra attacks work - they should not get +5 to hit for each extra attack but *gasp* -5! Now I see how this would be death for an action-based game but is the main reason that mobs in DDO have way-too-inflated ACs and HPs. You are *NOT SUPPOSED* to be able to hit with EVERY SINGLE SWING! If they had never implemented this craziness from the start, then the game would have been more balanced across the classes.

    As it is since we are getting overly-inflated attack bonuses the MOBs are getting even more inflated ACs and HPs because they are all rolling to not roll a 1 in most situations. Since the melees are hitting on 19 out of 20 swings the HPs of the mobs have to be astronomical to make boss fights last more than a minute or so.

    This is causing spellcasters such as wizards and sorcerers lament because as they gain levels they fall farther and farther behind the DPS curve. That is why wounding and puncturing is so popular now, it makes NO SENSE to DPS a mob down any time after about Gianthold. It is way too late to fix it now but this is the root problem of many of the symptoms we are dealing with now.

    Just my 2cp, and I must repeat, I still love DDO and am utterly addicted to it.
    Its more than this though.

    1. As per the DMG character are suppose to have a maximum character wealth. This translates into a certain amount of gear in gold worth. In DDO we have a level based system in regard with gear. This means that the amount of gear we have is about 20x higher than possible, if every piece of gear is near our maximum level.

    2. The d20 system is flawed in general. This is for pen and paper as well. If a fighter has +19 to hit over a rogue, then its possible for that fighter to hit on everything but a 1 and the rogue to never hit except on a 20. In PnP it isnt as bad since the limitation of gear keeps all classes in check, but in DDO the fighter types stack to hit.

    3. In PnP there is DM controlled fighting. If the magic users get out of had, the DM can always throw in a golem fight as in PnP they are completely immune to magical effects. If a finesse fighter is too powerful, the some undead can be thrown in. In DDO you can have enough gear that you can respect your build at a moment's notice so that your character is never really at a disadvantage.

    4. The mana based spell system is pretty broken. Vancian style magic would translate alot better. As you adventure you become less and less able. In DDO as you adventure you might lose mana but your options are always the same. While a lot of people dont like the memory based mechanic, it is EXTREMELY effective in tempering the party.

    5. The game is a little too fast. In PnP a 6th level fighter can take 2 swings and move 20 ft in heavy armor. So that means in 6 seconds he can move 40ft or move 20 and use 1.5 seconds for each swing. Same for the mobs. Slowing things down makes for better and more strategic play especially when you take in consideration the burn and forget magic.

    6. Friendly fire is off... and red named mobs are immune to mane enchantment spells and gear the mobs have don't automatically drop. If they are using it the players should be able to get it.

    7. So in all gameplay style plays really close to a console hack, and other than how the stats are set up, the balanced mechanics have been removed. This is an action game not a strategic game like PnP. Its a new type of thing not to be mixed up with DnD.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Auran82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska d'Orien View Post
    all loot binding would be a huge flaw and ruin the feel of imersion
    There should be many many more bind on equip items.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska d'Orien View Post
    all loot binding would be a huge flaw and ruin the feel of imersion
    Incorrect. It would actually fix an immersion-killing flaw that currently exists.

    In D&D (or any adventure game), the players should feel like they're the heros- the most powerful and important force of good for whatever situation they're in. The storyline should be such so that it seems that if you don't win the quest, bad things will happen to everyone around.

    In most RPGs (either classic PnP games, or single-player computer games) that situation is enforced by the game master by preventing the availability of any more-powerful guys on your side. Either you're the only tough good-guy around, or at least the others have some duty that they just can't leave (guarding the town gate, instead of tracking the monster to its cave).

    But in an MMORPG that can't be exactly done. Unless you're at the maximum allowed level, or you were in the first wave of characters built on the server, then there will always be someone better than you hanging around. Realistically, there'd be no reason for the NPC questgivers to ask for your help when someone else can solve the problem faster and with less risk for his own safety. You're not really blazing your own trail of adventure- you're grinding a well-worn path through repeatable dungeons that have already been beaten thousands or millions of times.

    For the game to work well, players must be able to ignore those facts and pretend that significantly higher-level player characters simply don't exist in the area. That's why there is an XP penalty for mismatched levels in a party: to discourage interaction between characters of disparate level. Ideally, we want each PC to feel like he is the first hero to beat each quest story.

    However, hand-me-down loot twinking violates that impression. The most effective way for a character of level 1-15 to acquire gear isn't to ransack monsters or be rewarded by NPCs; it's for an older PC to pass over something he doesn't need much anymore.

    The fact that higher-level alts is the most effective way to get gear breaks the desired immersion.
    The fact that quests are almost incomparably easier if a higher-level alt is feeding you gear and expendables breaks the desired immersion.

    Do you know what Tempest Spine was like in the first 50 days after DDO's release? There were maybe 5 Blackguards in the whole place, which was enough because level 10 players didn't generally even have +5 weapons. Iron Golems were a tough monster, because on average less than 1 player would have adamantine. And the Marut was practically a caster-only fight, because for a warrior to have an anarchic weapon was almost unheard of. But as time went by, players got more and more of that kind of gear, and it would be handed over to new alts before they run quests that need it. For a different kind of an example, just look at the listed minimum level of magic items, and compare that against the chance that a character can actually obtain such items at that level (without first hitting enough XP to move up).

    The gameplay experience and challenge level of those quests was totally different depending on whether or not it was a "mature" server whose players have built up a reservoir of handy items to share with others. That heavy entanglement between the perceptions of different players is a serious flaw in game design.

    A better system would be to apply something like "bind-to-party" loot mechanics, so that a level 7 rogue can't be wielding a +1 Holy Rapier against Flesh Renders unless he either got it as a quest reward, looted it personally, or was in the party when someone did loot it.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auran82 View Post
    There should be many many more bind on equip items.
    disagree would maybe good for a balance thing but horrible for a RP thing


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Incorrect. It would actually fix an immersion-killing flaw that currently exists.

    In D&D (or any adventure game), the players should feel like they're the heros- the most powerful and important force of good for whatever situation they're in. The storyline should be such so that it seems that if you don't win the quest, bad things will happen to everyone around.

    In most RPGs (either classic PnP games, or single-player computer games) that situation is enforced by the game master by preventing the availability of any more-powerful guys on your side. Either you're the only tough good-guy around, or at least the others have some duty that they just can't leave (guarding the town gate, instead of tracking the monster to its cave).

    But in an MMORPG that can't be exactly done. Unless you're at the maximum allowed level, or you were in the first wave of characters built on the server, then there will always be someone better than you hanging around. Realistically, there'd be no reason for the NPC questgivers to ask for your help when someone else can solve the problem faster and with less risk for his own safety. You're not really blazing your own trail of adventure- you're grinding a well-worn path through repeatable dungeons that have already been beaten thousands or millions of times.

    For the game to work well, players must be able to ignore those facts and pretend that significantly higher-level player characters simply don't exist in the area. That's why there is an XP penalty for mismatched levels in a party: to discourage interaction between characters of disparate level. Ideally, we want each PC to feel like he is the first hero to beat each quest story.

    However, hand-me-down loot twinking violates that impression. The most effective way for a character of level 1-15 to acquire gear isn't to ransack monsters or be rewarded by NPCs; it's for an older PC to pass over something he doesn't need much anymore.

    The fact that higher-level alts is the most effective way to get gear breaks the desired immersion.
    The fact that quests are almost incomparably easier if a higher-level alt is feeding you gear and expendables breaks the desired immersion.

    Do you know what Tempest Spine was like in the first 50 days after DDO's release? There were maybe 5 Blackguards in the whole place, which was enough because level 10 players didn't generally even have +5 weapons. Iron Golems were a tough monster, because on average less than 1 player would have adamantine. And the Marut was practically a caster-only fight, because for a warrior to have an anarchic weapon was almost unheard of. But as time went by, players got more and more of that kind of gear, and it would be handed over to new alts before they run quests that need it. For a different kind of an example, just look at the listed minimum level of magic items, and compare that against the chance that a character can actually obtain such items at that level (without first hitting enough XP to move up).

    The gameplay experience and challenge level of those quests was totally different depending on whether or not it was a "mature" server whose players have built up a reservoir of handy items to share with others. That heavy entanglement between the perceptions of different players is a serious flaw in game design.

    A better system would be to apply something like "bind-to-party" loot mechanics, so that a level 7 rogue can't be wielding a +1 Holy Rapier against Flesh Renders unless he either got it as a quest reward, looted it personally, or was in the party when someone did loot it.
    no binding wouldnt fix ddo its too late to fix what is wrong with the loot system they should have made all magic items much more rare then they are masterwork items should have meant something. Binding is to video gameish to me and yeah I know its a video game but its still and rpg to me first.


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uska d'Orien View Post
    Binding is to video gameish to me and yeah I know its a video game but its still and rpg to me first.
    No.

    I already explained it, but I'll briefly re-emphasize:

    In traditional D&D, there are no player characters of 10 levels above you. Your party is all there is. Nobody will hand you a +4 Scimitar of Giant-bane just when you need it, because there's nobody who can do that. If you'd like to test this yourself, join a D&D game at level 1 and tell the DM you're going to mail over some +5 armor and CSW wands from a level 10 character sheet you got in a different campaign.

    But in an MMO RPG, it's unavoidable that there will be characters of much higher level around. It would interfere too much if they joined the same party as you, so there are rules to punish that. But it also interferes when they provide items to you. DDO has some rules to restrict that (minimum-level items), but not enough.

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