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  1. #121
    Community Member CSFurious's Avatar
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    4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

    then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

    all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

    fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

    smells like stinky fish to me

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSteel View Post
    steep? nothing is steep on a class that gets all its essentials for free already. If rangers had to choose ranged or twf feats then yes the spring attack chain would be steep. But thats not the case.

  2. #122
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    Moorewr i completely agree with you although that doesnt matter. The fact that some of the capstones are bad (IE horrible beyond any doubt) doesnt change the fact that they were coming and known to be coming by some of us wether we want to admit it or not.

    DDO is the only MMO based off D&D, but it is still a MMO and as such follows the rules of MMOs. It is just BASED off D&D, much the same that when you see a movie that is BASED off a true story, it doesnt mean you get the story as it comes but instead in the formula that is going to produce a successful movie.

    The third point of having no indication from the from turbine comes from the fact that DDO is unfinished with its first cap until lvl 20 comes out. Granted not everyone would have seen this coming. You would have had to have played other MMOs to see that capstones would be coming when lvl 20 was reached.

    Maybe you have never played other MMOs, in which case noone faults you or anyone else that didnt see it coming for being blindsided and calling for a respec of your whole character. At the same time DDO has the quickest lvl up progression of any game on the market and most other games have no respec of your char once you have chosen the path or options that are avaible. You keep them and move on.

  3. #123
    Community Member moorewr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayen View Post
    Moorewr i completely agree with you although that doesnt matter. The fact that some of the capstones are bad (IE horrible beyond any doubt) doesnt change the fact that they were coming and known to be coming by some of us wether we want to admit it or not.
    You will not find any mention of capstones before the release of Mod 8 in the forums or any other official communications from Turbine about DDO.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mayen View Post
    Maybe you have never played other MMOs, in which case noone faults you or anyone else that didnt see it coming for being blindsided and calling for a respec of your whole character. .
    I have played EQ, UO, Muds, WoW, etc. and I don't get where you are coming from on this at all. Let me add that I have no desire to respec any of my characters, even if it was available.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayen View Post
    most other games have no respec of your char once you have chosen the path or options that are avaible. You keep them and move on.
    That is incredibly backwards.

    The popular MMORPGs allow you to redo absolutely every choice made while levelling up.

  5. #125
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSFurious View Post
    4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

    then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

    all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

    fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

    smells like stinky fish to me
    Let's ignore the 'flavor' ranged Rangers a second.

    Every single one of the others has Tempest. Every one.

    Why is that?

    Because the cost is insignificant to the benefits derived from Tempest I, let alone Tempest III.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSFurious View Post
    4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

    then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

    all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

    fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

    smells like stinky fish to me
    Hmm, the feat cost is fairly expensive that ill give you. The returns on it though are 10% AND additional attacks AND +4 shield AC AND essentially +2 attack. All for 8 ap total out of 80 at lvl 20 (10% not 20%).

    I'm sorry but I am sick of ranger fanbois feeling they should be the only class out there. Your class already is broken beyond comparison. Fastest swing speed, most raw damage (+16 raw critable damage for essentially every single mob that matters in game at lvl 20 on top of the base bonuses), evasion, AC that matters, the ability to effectivly range where no others can... And to top it all off you call any class that gets any ONE of these abilties a nerf to your own class when nothing has changed for you is just unbelievable.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSFurious View Post
    i think that tempest rangers should attack faster than a fighter at level 20


    They do... STWF of Tempest III



    the requirements for the entire tempest line are pretty steep and there should be a reward for that, i.e., 30% attack speed at level 18


    Tempest costs less than most PrEs.


    fighters get haste boost and that is where their attack speed should come from


    Yes a whole wopping 18 or so sec out of every 30 for 5 increments is not even close to a permanent boost.


    your attempts to nerf tempest rangers will just irritate your playerbase IMO

    I have not yet begun to Nerf rangers ... though I would if ya want. Starting with Favored Enemy and then by making PrEs tied to Feats Features and Skill Ranks instead of Class Levels
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    That is incredibly backwards.

    The popular MMORPGs allow you to redo absolutely every choice made while levelling up.
    name me 1, 1 single game that will allow you to keep your gear and change every other aspect of your char which is the respec people are calling for. Wow and Wow-lite (lotr) are the only games that i remember allowing you to change anything at all on your char and even those dont allow a full respec.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by moorewr View Post
    You will not find any mention of capstones before the release of Mod 8 in the forums or any other official communications from Turbine about DDO.

    I have played EQ, UO, Muds, WoW, etc. and I don't get where you are coming from on this at all. Let me add that I have no desire to respec any of my characters, even if it was available.
    Nope there was no indication of capstones pre mod 8 at all. Coming from a simliar backround of MMOs (minus the WOW which i refuse to play), and seeing the those commonalities between all MMOs (heck even EVE had its own version of capstones even though there was no cap to the game), may be a bit presumptious of me to assume everyone else sees the commonalities as I do.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayen View Post
    name me 1, 1 single game that will allow you to keep your gear and change every other aspect of your char which is the respec people are calling for.
    Hilarious. What part of "every choice made during levelling" do you not understand?

    I'm trying hard to think of an example of any other MMORPG which has an irreversible choice during advancement after character creation, but I can't come up with any. There must be some, but I can't think of one. Not something like WOW, or Conan, or GW, or Warhammer, or EQ, or COH, or Vanguard, or SWG, or any other slightly recent game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayen View Post
    Wow and Wow-lite (lotr) are the only games that i remember allowing you to change anything at all on your char and even those dont allow a full respec.
    Most other games allow some kind of respec, and WOW and it's clones allow you to change almost everything that matters.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by moorewr View Post
    • The idea that a player of this MMO should have predicted the nature as well as existence of capstones in the absence of any indication they would exist for the first 2 1/2 years of the game is .. well, a canard.
    Obviously this is more regarding a respec discussion more than one about the fighter capstone. But, I think while your technically correct about the knowledge of a "capstone" in advance, you are incorrect about knowing that a potential sacrifice was being made regarding multiclassing.

    Even at cap 10, we knew the cap was going to be much higher. As such, if you chose to multiclass, you would obviously miss out on the "top" enhancements available at the capped level, whatever cap we are referring to.

    If you went 8/2, ftr/rog, then you knew when the cap went to 12, you would miss out on anything introduced for fighters level 11 and 12. Same goes for every level cap increase.

    If this cap was going to 18 instead of 20, you'd miss out on the 3rd tier of the PrE's if you multiclassed. We all had a pretty good indiciation that more tiers were coming on the PrE's.

    My point is, that while capstones were not specifically announced, it was always clear that as long as the cap was increasing, you were taking a risk by multiclassing. I don't see how one can argue that isnt the case.

    Now, we didnt know "what" we were risking, and I agree with that, but to say we were unaware of a risk is not accurate.

    Im going to reroll a few toons at this point because of the 3rd tier PrE's and capstones. But Im fine with that. I knew that I was taking a chance, and I enjoyed those benefits while they were benefits. Now those builds arent as optimal, so I reroll.

    Wanting a respec is a very reasonable position to argue. But I dont think anyone can really argue that there was not knowledge the multiclassing had risk associated with it as the cap was increasing.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathseeker View Post
    to say we were unaware of a risk is not accurate.
    So what?

    It's not like he said that.

  13. #133
    Community Member Elaril's Avatar
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    So, I'm curious. How does everyone think this capstone shifts the argument involving the existence of the ring of evasion?
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  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    So what?

    It's not like he said that.
    Because I believe that is what is being implied in the debate. If not, then my statement is somewhat off topic. But I believe incinuation is that because "capstones" were not mentioned, multiclassing was done without any understanding that they may lead to a build that does not have access to the final enhancements at level 20 and would have to be rerolled.

    How could one multiclass and expect to get the enhancements available at level 20? Obviously no one would expect that.

    Therefore, there was some understanding of risk associated with multiclassing. Since the game does not have a respec mechanism, and has not indicated or even hinted that there will be one, then the choice to multiclass was a calculation of a known reward vs an unknown risk.

    I support an expensive respec, I just don't agree with the incinuation that players didnt "know" the risk they were taking.

    If that was not incinuated or implied, then I agree, my point was not relevant to the discussion.
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  15. #135
    Community Member Elaril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSFurious View Post
    4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

    then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

    all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

    fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

    smells like stinky fish to me
    I think you forgot that, in order for a fighter to gain the 10% boost, they have to devote 20 levels to being a fighter. That's 100% of their character levels at a cap of 20.

    Tempest derivative builds only have to take 18 levels to max the line out. That's only 90% of their character levels at cap. And, with the limited benefits given to TWFers at 20, they are free to splash monk and rogue for the ac, umd and extra dps.
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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathseeker View Post
    *snip*
    Even if it was made clear to us that there would be a loss for multiclassing, no one could know of what they would be giving up on, or when they'd fix it. For some, these characters have been built for three years. Do you really think it is good to make a player wait three years just in case the character gets improve/to avoid getting nerfed?

    This is why the "you knew you'd give up on something" argument fails.
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  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Even if it was made clear to us that there would be a loss for multiclassing, no one could know of what they would be giving up on, or when they'd fix it. For some, these characters have been built for three years. Do you really think it is good to make a player wait three years just in case the character gets improve/to avoid getting nerfed?

    This is why the "you knew you'd give up on something" argument fails.
    Yes, agreed...I actually think we are all violently agreeing.

    I am just taking issue with incinuation that we "didnt know". I am not disagreeing that even though we did know, we should still have some form of respec.

    Debating with you guys is like arguing with my wife...the argument ends up becoming an argument over the argument and we forget what the heck we started discussing in the first place. And in the end we sometimes even forget which side of the argument we were on.

    Well, its not exactly the same...I ALWAYS lose when arguing with her, even if I win. And making up with her is much more pleasant as well
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Do you really think it is good to make a player wait three years just in case the character gets improve/to avoid getting nerfed?
    And what's funny/sad is those pure-class rogues who held back from the benefits of a warrior level just so that someday they can qualify for an awesome L20 ability.

  19. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    And what's funny/sad is those pure-class rogues who held back from the benefits of a warrior level just so that someday they can qualify for an awesome L20 ability.
    Touche'
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    And what's funny/sad is those pure-class rogues who held back from the benefits of a warrior level just so that someday they can qualify for an awesome L20 ability.
    But they will add more capstones in the future so all is not lost.
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