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  1. #81
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    I'm not terribly sad that Tanka won't get this until they give us 28th level.

    I'm gonna have to reroll Honos, though. Don't have the Dex for GTWF.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed
    It's troublesome to use the word "speed" to mean something different than "amount per unit time", but this demonstrates why designers tend to use "rate" or even "throughput" when more verbal precision is important.

    Unfortunately, if TWF Fighter20s are going to be solidly below Ranger20s in APM (attacks per minute), then I can't see a way to justify someone building a TWF Fighter (which also means no use for an offensive Fighter).

    Rangers already have all kinds of advantages in skillpoints, Reflex saves, Evasion, wands, and spellcasting. Weapon Specialization and Kensai Power Surge are approximately matched by Favored Enemy and Ram's Might. The Fighter benefits of +2 hp/level and Intimidate mean very little (especially if you're trying to play offensively). The Ranger is already a lot ahead before increasing his attack rate by 9% or 18% or whatever results from the unannounced BAB20 animation with Tempest3.

    About the only way the Fighter build can strike back is to rely on his Haste Boost enhancement (which is the core of the "Monster" build). It's true that Kensai gives you a lot more boosting, but will that be enough to close in on a Ranger? (And what about a Ranger who took fig1 or rog1 and learned Haste Boosts of his own?)

    Looks to me like the first step to fixing the problem is to nerf Favored Enemy down towards D&D numbers.

  3. #83
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Nice

  4. #84
    Community Member bobbryan2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

    You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

    No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)
    Heh.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Unfortunately, if TWF Fighter20s are going to be solidly below Ranger20s in APM (attacks per minute), then I can't see a way to justify someone building a TWF Fighter (which also means no use for an offensive Fighter).

    Looks to me like the first step to fixing the problem is to nerf Favored Enemy down towards D&D numbers.
    In addition, you could work to increase the number of good feats in the game. The fighter would surely get more of them.

    This is an idea a prominent poster here keeps proposing. Can't remember whom.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugal_gourmet View Post
    This is an idea a prominent poster here keeps proposing. Can't remember whom.
    Pretty much everyone says that. Hopefully, Turbine still has tactical feats planned for M9.

    Additionally to adding feats, they could add feat-based enhancements for fighters (like Fighter Toughness, Barbarian Power Attack, etc.)
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Pretty much everyone says that. Hopefully, Turbine still has tactical feats planned for M9.

    Additionally to adding feats, they could add feat-based enhancements for fighters (like Fighter Toughness, Barbarian Power Attack, etc.)
    I know, but my joke depended on the fact that he (Angelus) proposed that like 15 times in the last month.

    edit: BTW, I do wonder what effect high-level weapon specialization that fighters would get (not Rangers) might have on DPS because they might also add high-level enhancements to stretch out this effect. It wouldn't surprise me that much.
    Last edited by frugal_gourmet; 03-05-2009 at 11:12 AM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugal_gourmet View Post
    I know, but my joke depended on the fact that he (Angelus) proposed that like 15 times in the last month
    Your humor is lost here. This is serious business we are discussing not some GAME....


    Wait what? It is a game? Hmph.....

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    It's troublesome to use the word "speed" to mean something different than "amount per unit time", but this demonstrates why designers tend to use "rate" or even "throughput" when more verbal precision is important.

    Unfortunately, if TWF Fighter20s are going to be solidly below Ranger20s in APM (attacks per minute), then I can't see a way to justify someone building a TWF Fighter (which also means no use for an offensive Fighter).

    Rangers already have all kinds of advantages in skillpoints, Reflex saves, Evasion, wands, and spellcasting. Weapon Specialization and Kensai Power Surge are approximately matched by Favored Enemy and Ram's Might. The Fighter benefits of +2 hp/level and Intimidate mean very little (especially if you're trying to play offensively). The Ranger is already a lot ahead before increasing his attack rate by 9% or 18% or whatever results from the unannounced BAB20 animation with Tempest3.

    About the only way the Fighter build can strike back is to rely on his Haste Boost enhancement (which is the core of the "Monster" build). It's true that Kensai gives you a lot more boosting, but will that be enough to close in on a Ranger? (And what about a Ranger who took fig1 or rog1 and learned Haste Boosts of his own?)

    Looks to me like the first step to fixing the problem is to nerf Favored Enemy down towards D&D numbers.
    A_D, keep in mind one variable in this is how much DR/- end game content has. If the pure ranger has an advantage in number of attacks due to STWF, but the fighter has a base damage advantage (due to strength), the DR/- could really swing things one way or the other.

    Fortification also has an effect to negate Kensai 3 potentially, which would swing things back toward the ranger.

    Not saying the above conclusion you are reaching is right or wrong, just trying to suggest that this will be hard to determine until we know what the mobs/content look like.
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  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFPAQ View Post
    But given all of the other advantages provided with just 6 lvls of ranger for Tempest I, I don't think that a 10% increase in attack speed for staying pure all the way to 20 is really adequate.

    Tempest I gets me 10% attack speed, plus 2 AC, plus wand usage, and ram's might. Or I go all the way to fighter 20 sucking down pots and cash to get that same 10%?

    Sorry guys. It should be 15% so if you have lived the pain of staying pure it really is something unique to your build/class. And it should stack with everything...
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that the fighter also gets a +1 to his critical range, which isnt totally minor. And fighter's haste boost is a massive attack boost. Dont underestimate this, as the Kensai gets an additional 3 boosts, so a fully loaded fighter can have 9 of these I think (I might be off by one). That's fairly significant.

    The fact that this is now even a debatable topic means it was a pretty decent capstone...
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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathseeker View Post
    The fact that this is now even a debatable topic means it was a pretty decent capstone...
    Agreed. I think it's a good starting point.

    Clearly there is a fundamental game design issue with back-loading strong features, but that has been discussed at length and capstones are here to stay.

    Sometimes it's actually a little safer when you have a game with an overlay complex ruleset with lots of special cases to undershoot the goal, observe, and evalaute carefully. If they inadvertantly make a mistake that gives fighters (or anyone) too much of something, they are painting themselves into a corner. We've already observed how difficult it is to take something away. Even with a respec it would not be enjoyable for players.

    This is going to be interesting. Don't forget: there are also a bunch of new items thrown into the equation. It'll be interesting to see what effect those have.

    I think getting fighters within sniffing distance for now is at least a good step. We can continue prodding them in the right direction.
    Last edited by frugal_gourmet; 03-05-2009 at 11:34 AM.

  12. #92
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathseeker View Post
    You seem to be ignoring the fact that the fighter also gets a +1 to his critical range, which isnt totally minor. And fighter's haste boost is a massive attack boost. Dont underestimate this, as the Kensai gets an additional 3 boosts, so a fully loaded fighter can have 9 of these I think (I might be off by one). That's fairly significant.

    The fact that this is now even a debatable topic means it was a pretty decent capstone...
    A boost-specced Kensai can get up to 10 (5 base + 3 Kensai + 2 Enhancement), each lasting 20sec with a 30sec cooldown.

    Whether or not they can afford 6AP to Extra Haste Boost 1&2 is another story.
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  13. #93
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanka View Post
    A boost-specced Kensai can get up to 10 (5 base + 3 Kensai + 2 Enhancement), each lasting 20sec with a 30sec cooldown.

    Whether or not they can afford 6AP to Extra Haste Boost 1&2 is another story.
    Yeah that one will be tough I think.
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  14. #94
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    OK, sorry come to think of it they did call them Prestige.

    I never played D&D. So is a capstone not DDO's version of a D&D's Prestige?

    I know there was something in D&D they they always talked about getting for staying pure.

    If there are bonus in D&D for staying pure, then my point still stands, the bonus name is just semantics.

    So no respec FOR U.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    You've found a flaw in my flavor text. Fighter 20 and Tempest III Ranger 20's will both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed during that attack sequence. I'll edit my original post.

    Or you could just make the extra attack annimation so slow the fighter actually does keep up in the Attacks per minute department. Ya know.. Like the Roundhouse attacks for BAB15. Maybe Tempest rangers can do a Backflip or something spectacular before gettin that final attack in.,
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  16. #96
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

    You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

    No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)
    There should be a respec. Capstones are also a Turbine creation. I totally disagree with this logic. It sounds more like a recipe for people to quit the game. My beloved character is now gimped and now I have to go to all the trouble of rerolling and leveling the character which for a casual player could take months..
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  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Or you could just make the extra attack annimation so slow the fighter actually does keep up in the Attacks per minute department.
    If I was not on your ignore list, this post would inform you that STWF adds a main hand hook on your fifth animation.

    Sadly, you'll never know.
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  18. #98
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    OK, sorry come to think of it they did call them Prestige.

    I never played D&D. So is a capstone not DDO's version of a D&D's Prestige?

    I know there was something in D&D they they always talked about getting for staying pure.

    If there are bonus in D&D for staying pure, then my point still stands, the bonus name is just semantics.

    So no respec FOR U.
    You tell people to read the PHB to see that there's a reason to stay pure and then you admit to telling us this based on pure conjecture?

    Hilarious.

    There are no benefits for most classes to stay pure. The only ones that get any true benefit are Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin and Ranger. Six out of eleven classes get a bonus at 20. Fighters get another bonus feat at 20, but that isn't a reason to stay pure. In fact, there is zero reason for a Fighter to stay pure past L4, unless they really really want GWS at L12, and then there's zero reason past that. (Alternatively, go Warblade. They out-Fighter the Fighter.)

    The capstones are not reasons to stay pure. They're just Turbine's (incorrect) way of balacing pure vs multiclass.
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by smyter View Post
    Now give fighters the ability to select the bow strength feat and that may help fix the bow issue. (and fix the fighter haste to give 30% instead of 15%)
    No not good enough. The ranger will still blow the fighter out of the water with a bow and has evasion, spells, more skill points then a fighter, and can more easily switch to twf then a fighter especially if the fighter has to waste feats on things like bow strength.
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  20. #100
    Community Member EKKM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    OK, sorry come to think of it they did call them Prestige.

    I never played D&D. So is a capstone not DDO's version of a D&D's Prestige?

    I know there was something in D&D they they always talked about getting for staying pure.

    If there are bonus in D&D for staying pure, then my point still stands, the bonus name is just semantics.

    So no respec FOR U.
    Prestige class levels are taken instead of class levels, so they have nothing to do with staying pure. Pretty much the opposite actually.

    Certain classes get additional abilities at level 20 as Tanka stated but nothing like a capstone.

    So before saying your point still stands maybe you actually have some vague knowledge of what you are talking about.
    Last edited by EKKM; 03-05-2009 at 12:51 PM.

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