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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    I got that. I was simply putting numbers one might expect to see what the real Str could be like.
    Sure no problem....yes it is a very high strength at level 20, 60 will be very obtainable I would bet once all the new gear comes out.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    The big other difference is staying power, the 12/8 build has far more hit points when raged compared to the 12/6 build.
    Incorrect and backwards.

    The 12/6 build has much more reflex due to his ranger levels, and more importantly he can take rog2 or monk2 to get Evasion. That's a lot better for self-defense than the hitpoint differential of barb levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    I would not count on that build being king for long as that is clearly not what the game is going for as max DPS. No way do they want anyone to out DPS a level 20 Barbarian except perhaps a Rogue with 100% sneak attacks.
    Well, it's true that the devs probably don't like the results produced by their design accidents. But they've exhibited a great reluctance to change previous rules to fix those things.
    Last edited by Angelus_dead; 02-21-2009 at 10:35 PM.

  3. #43
    Community Member apacheizm23's Avatar
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    Default Not Bad..

    Not bad at all..
    Dirtyone/Fighter/Pali/Monk Completionist Apache/Favored Soul TR VIIApachekid/Ranger/Fighter 32PtCap.Truegod/FavoredSoul/Wiz/Monk TR VIII Powwow/FighterTRVIII Indio/Pali 32Pt Cap. Tuko/Barb 32Pt Cap. Redhook/Bard/LR 32Pt Cap. Guiseppi/Ranger 32Pt Cap. Shortyrock/Rogue/Rangers/Barb 32Pt Cap. DirtyHo/Monk TR VI Dirtyblade/Pali TR V
    VIP/2006 Brooklyn N.Y.

  4. #44
    Community Member Inspire's Avatar
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    Both my Barbarians Pearce(2wF) and Woad(2hF) will be staying pure and taking this capstone. When a different capstone comes out that will benefit Pearce more for 2wF I will take that instead.

  5. #45
    Community Member Desteria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick_robinsonchia View Post
    Edit: Human would be the best Pure Race 2wf barb IMO. Sub toughness for khopesh and add stunning blow...but then again hes not WF...
    HAFLING the new master race!!!! Guile + TWF is lots of nice damage added!

    And I would not be suprised to still see a lot of 6rgr/12barb/2x TWF barbs beacsue thats still a very valid build as well.
    Prophits of the New Republic-- Khyber--PnP Vetren of more years then I wish to admit
    Desteria MoonStar-Sorc20--Mcgruf The Crime Dog-Dwarf Ftr12/Pal3/Rgr5
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  6. #46
    Community Member GlassCannon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by negative View Post
    Though, my Barb is a THF, so I'm happy with this specific capstone and will probably remain pure if I can figure out a way to get enough feats.
    You don't need to take Toughness 26 times....

  7. #47
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    No surprises with how this capstone turned out.

    The TWF Rapier Barbs may not be dead, but the devs are going to make damn well sure no one's ever going to roll another one...

    (In other words this, plus the removal of Crit Rage as well as FB only working on 19-20, along with the THF boosts all cearly show which way the devs are pushing Barbs).

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Incorrect and backwards.

    The 12/6 build has much more reflex due to his ranger levels, and more importantly he can take rog2 or monk2 to get Evasion. That's a lot better for self-defense than the hitpoint differential of barb levels.


    Well, it's true that the devs probably don't like the results produced by their design accidents. But they've exhibited a great reluctance to change previous rules to fix those things.
    Well that of course depends on the situation so is hardly incorrect, evasion is great when you need it, it is impossible to say how much you will need it when facing the hard hitting raid bosses of Mod 9.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Stele View Post
    No surprises with how this capstone turned out.

    The TWF Rapier Barbs may not be dead, but the devs are going to make damn well sure no one's ever going to roll another one...

    (In other words this, plus the removal of Crit Rage as well as FB only working on 19-20, along with the THF boosts all cearly show which way the devs are pushing Barbs).
    Yeah personally I kind of like it, I wish THF could be brought more in line. My suspicion, is that they will take another look at the combat animations and make sure that THF is not at 50% swing rate but more like 60-65% of TWF. That combined with glancing blow effects would even things out greatly.

    Now would be a good time to re-work the animation timings for BAB 20 (at least I really hope so).

    I don't know why they don't simplify the animations a bit, you need only 4 attacks to make TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and STWF(Ranger's Only) work. Then you simply make sure that the S&B and THF take less time to complete so that it comes out at about 100 attacks per minute (similiar to the texas 3-step now for THF) and 160 or so for the TWF with feats.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 02-22-2009 at 07:50 AM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Incorrect and backwards.

    The 12/6 build has much more reflex due to his ranger levels, and more importantly he can take rog2 or monk2 to get Evasion. That's a lot better for self-defense than the hitpoint differential of barb levels.


    Well, it's true that the devs probably don't like the results produced by their design accidents. But they've exhibited a great reluctance to change previous rules to fix those things.
    I will also point out here that this is true of Barbarian 20 as well, the truth is 6 Ranger/2 Monk and 6 Ranger/2 Rogue is broken, we all know it.

    Basically everyone should delete or not roll a melee character unless you include at least 6 levels or Ranger and have evasion.

    There is zero reason for someone today to roll a Barbarian, you either go Ranger 18+, Fighter 12/Ranger 6, or if you already have an existing character Barbarian 14/Ranger 6 with crit rage. The enhancement system has completely broken the game.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    I will also point out here that this is true of Barbarian 20 as well, the truth is 6 Ranger/2 Monk and 6 Ranger/2 Rogue is broken, we all know it.
    Well, there's a reason not to take builds based on Ran6: there can be a bug that'll prevent you from ever training GTWF later. I haven't been keeping track of the current state of the bug, but it's been a real obstacle before, although obviously it can't be viewed as an intentionally-designed ddrawback of that class combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    The enhancement system has completely broken the game.
    Certainly not.

    You are conflating "the enhancement system" with "a small number of poorly-planned enhancements" and "the inability to respec class levels".

    The enhancement system itself is fine. What's wrong is that on a few occasions a few devs put in an enhancement that was too powerful like Tempest I or Crit Rage II, because they neglected to correctly evaluate the difference between multiplicative and additive bonuses. And then the problem was cemented since those enhancements require X class levels and characters can't respec class levels, making the devs afraid to nerf the problems.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    The enhancement system has completely broken the game.
    I'll take this opportunity to point out that the D&D game design regarding balance between weapon styles was already broken long before DDO got to it.

    The range within which additive and multiplicative bonuses can be interestingly balanced is very small. After some time, the option with the highest multipliers will just grow in a way the alternative can't keep pace with. What was balanced at level cap X won't will be out of whack at X+6.

    The only way to truly fix that is to make all options multiplicative, which can be done either explicitly or covertly. I'll describe an example of the explicit technique below:

    The key is for characters to get a percentage multiplier to weapon damage, similar to how Potency works for spell damage. To start with, you would remove the weapon-handedness multipliers for Strength and Power Attack, and instead declare that a two-hand weapon gets a +50% multiplier to damage bonuses, and maybe also give the offhand a -50% or -25% penalty. That would mean that effects like Inspire Courage and Favored Enemy aren't as TWF-biased as they are now, because a +8 song buff would become +12 for a greataxe, but maybe only +4 to an offhand rapier.

    With that framework in place, the devs can provide additional multipliers from other build choices when needed to improve balance. For example, each tier of Kensai might provide a 5% bonus to mainhand physical damage.

    The key to this idea is that since attack-speed bonuses have a multiplicative effect on the damage sources you've got, the direct way for another combat style to compete with that is to also be a multiplicative bonus. Basically, the proposed weapon-multiplier effect is a characteristic which behaves much like attack speed in terms of improving DPS, but which is not attack speed. Thus the devs don't need to find a way to justify giving all four full-BAB classes the same +10% attack rate.

  13. #53
    Community Member ThrasherGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    I'll take this opportunity to point out that the D&D game design regarding balance between weapon styles was already broken long before DDO got to it.

    The range within which additive and multiplicative bonuses can be interestingly balanced is very small. After some time, the option with the highest multipliers will just grow in a way the alternative can't keep pace with. What was balanced at level cap X won't will be out of whack at X+6.

    The only way to truly fix that is to make all options multiplicative, which can be done either explicitly or covertly. I'll describe an example of the explicit technique below:

    The key is for characters to get a percentage multiplier to weapon damage, similar to how Potency works for spell damage. To start with, you would remove the weapon-handedness multipliers for Strength and Power Attack, and instead declare that a two-hand weapon gets a +50% multiplier to damage bonuses, and maybe also give the offhand a -50% or -25% penalty. That would mean that effects like Inspire Courage and Favored Enemy aren't as TWF-biased as they are now, because a +8 song buff would become +12 for a greataxe, but maybe only +4 to an offhand rapier.

    With that framework in place, the devs can provide additional multipliers from other build choices when needed to improve balance. For example, each tier of Kensai might provide a 5% bonus to mainhand physical damage.

    The key to this idea is that since attack-speed bonuses have a multiplicative effect on the damage sources you've got, the direct way for another combat style to compete with that is to also be a multiplicative bonus. Basically, the proposed weapon-multiplier effect is a characteristic which behaves much like attack speed in terms of improving DPS, but which is not attack speed. Thus the devs don't need to find a way to justify giving all four full-BAB classes the same +10% attack rate.
    Ding! Ding! Ding! <Crowd cheers> We Have A Winner!

    I had to read this twice to make sure it made as much sense the second time!
    This is, by far, the best solution for this that I have seen.............(If You posted this before AD,I didn't see it)

    Great Job!
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  14. #54
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    Ya know ... this one feels ok. Not overpowered, not broken, not worthless... good balance.

    My new favorite Capstone I think. I give it an A

    Aesop
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  15. #55
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Obligatory "Cheat Death sucks" post.
    Person Æ, Sarlona
    Tanka Yomero (Human Hybrid) .:. Darani Yomero (Drow Sorcerer) .:. Yomero (WF Paladonk)

  16. #56
    Community Member Dynar's Avatar
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    I like it!
    Glad to see some Two-Handed love!

    RAWR!!!

  17. #57
    Community Member Rindalathar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbryan2 View Post
    Well... it's better than the rogue, at least!
    QFT a million times over
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  18. #58
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desteria View Post
    HAFLING the new master race!!!! Guile + TWF is lots of nice damage added!

    And I would not be suprised to still see a lot of 6rgr/12barb/2x TWF barbs beacsue thats still a very valid build as well.
    Hate to tell ya but u shouldnt really be getting sneak attack all that much Guile = losers mentality (in the nicest posible way). Human/WF. And 12 Ftr > 12 Barb significantly
    GROAN-1 (Melee/Casting Horc FVS)

  19. #59
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Is it just me or is this capstone thread sorta dead....hell does anyone care about barbs still.... or has the 'viscious' and the 'ranger' turned of but all of the most dedicated fans?
    GROAN-1 (Melee/Casting Horc FVS)

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aesop View Post
    Not overpowered, not broken, not worthless... good balance.
    Agreed. I feel exactly the same. If you look at the discussion in the first pages, you'll there is actually a question on whether not you multiclass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanka View Post
    Obligatory "Cheat Death sucks" post.
    QFT
    Quote Originally Posted by nick_robinsonchia View Post
    Is it just me or is this capstone thread sorta dead....hell does anyone care about barbs still.... or has the 'viscious' and the 'ranger' turned of but all of the most dedicated fans?
    I think has to do with the fact there is nothing much to say: it's not overpowered nor underpowered.

    No one is complaining that it sucks or that they have to reroll.
    DDOwiki.com, #1 source for DDO information.

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