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  1. #1
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Default So if the ranger monk splash is overpowered... what do you do about it?

    1. Nothing.

    2. Let turbine raise the to-hit and hit points of mobs even more.

    3. Reduce the ability to use monk AC in some maner.

    4. Reduce the tempest bonus in some maner.

    5. ???

  2. #2
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    1. Nothing.

    2. Let Turbine Raise The To-hit And Hit Points Of Mobs Even More.

    3. Reduce The Ability To Use Monk Ac In Some Maner.

    4. Reduce The Tempest Bonus In Some Maner.

    5. ???
    I truely do not know how to do this without making a lot of people really mad...

    1. Nothing... this makes the people saying the build is overpowered upset.

    2. More mob inflation seems unfun to me and a way to hurt anyone without the optimum build.

    3. Reducing Monk AC transfer. For example, make wisdom bonus only available when using monk weapons. Or make monk AC only useable when using monk weapons (or both). Another posted to cap wisdom bonus at the number of monk levels. Things like that.

    While these take care not to hurt pure monks, anyone who has a splash build will be very upset by this.

    4. Reducing tempest bonus. Many people have said this is overpowered. I don't know. (Without the monk splash would it be?) Doing this would affect pure builds too and upset those with the builds.

    5. Other ideas???
    Last edited by redoubt; 02-07-2009 at 10:48 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Milamber69's Avatar
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    Post

    5. Complain

  4. #4
    Community Member redoubt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milamber69 View Post
    5. Complain
    Why? What does that solve? Can we not at least attempt to be constructive?

  5. #5
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    1: Reduce Favorite Enemy Enhancment bonus'
    1a: Increase Mob Diversity within a Module.
    2: Change Tempest AC Type (Done)
    3: Provide more options for S&B players to match/Exceed the ac of a Monk splash.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Elaril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    1: Reduce Favorite Enemy Enhancment bonus'
    1a: Increase Mob Diversity within a Module.
    2: Change Tempest AC Type (Done)
    3: Provide more options for S&B players to match/Exceed the ac of a Monk splash.
    Imho

    1 = not worth the headache it will cause from player complaints. Especially if the other three are incorporated.
    1a = good idea
    2 = already done so my opinion doesn't matter, but it's a decent idea
    3 = very good idea
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  7. #7
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    - Add some form of shield-only profane AC bonus
    - Add some form of shield-only DR (like hound shields, but more!)

    I think DR combined with the large selection of guards that we currently have is the way out of this hole.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strakeln View Post
    - Add some form of shield-only profane AC bonus
    - Add some form of shield-only DR (like hound shields, but more!)

    I think DR combined with the large selection of guards that we currently have is the way out of this hole.
    I agree with this. While I do not know the official DDO rules, so forgive me if I am off, but when I think of a paladin with a Swords and a huge Tower Shield, I can see enemies hitting the shield way more often in combat than the character. The difference between blocking DR is minimal to me when you compare Large Shield and Tower, esp if you have to take a feat to use. I also think that if you can use a Tower shield there needs to be something along the line of at lest DR 10, but since you have such a huge shield you attack slower than you normally would. I would leave most shields alone except maybe up the AC bonus a bit and Double the AC bonus for a tower shield and add an automatic DR 10, but slow your attack rate down 10-15%.

    I just think in real life a larger shield/armor gives you more protection, but with more protection/DR, you lose the ability to attack or move really fast.

  9. #9
    Community Member Jendrak's Avatar
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    1. Fix multi-classing
    2. Fix multi-classing
    3. Fix multi-classing

    Had they actually done it the right way none of this would even be a problem.

    If you dont know what im talking about here it is.

    If you decide to multi-class the levels of your classes can not be more than 1lvl apart. I.E. A 11thlvl wizard/rogue would have to have 6lvls wizzy and 5lvls rogue(or vice-a-versa)to take no penalties.

    The penalty for for being more than 1lvl "off" is 20% of your xp.

    Every race has a favored class. So if you wizard rogue was a halfling you could do 9 wizzy and 2 rogue and not suffer any penalty because a halflings favored class is rogue and not subject to the penalties. However, if you add anyother class it must be within 1 lvl of the wizard lvls because for the purpose of multi-classing its almost like the rogue levels dont exist.

    Edit: fixed xp penalty on multi-classing
    Last edited by Jendrak; 02-07-2009 at 11:43 AM.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    1. Fix multi-classing
    2. Fix multi-classing
    3. Fix multi-classing

    Had they actually done it the right way none of this would even be a problem.

    If you dont know what im talking about here it is.

    If you decide to multi-class the levels of your classes can not be more than 1lvl apart. I.E. A 11thlvl wizard/rogue would have to have 6lvls wizzy and 5lvls rogue(or vice-a-versa)to take no penalties.

    The penalty for for being more than 1lvl "off" is 10% of your xp per lvl difference past 1. I.E. 2=10%, 3=20%, etc...

    Every race has a favored class. So if you wizard rogue was a halfling you could do 9 wizzy and 2 rogue and not suffer any penalty because a halflings favored class is rogue and not subject to the penalties. However, if you add anyother class it must be within 1 lvl of the wizard lvls because for the purpose of multi-classing its almost like the rogue levels dont exist.
    In a game with functionally infinite XP gain, this is silly and pointless.

    What they should do is similar to what they did with Sorc's doubling of SP items. They gain a percentage of their Wisdom bonus to AC based on what percentage of Monk they are.
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  11. #11
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    1. Fix multi-classing
    2. Fix multi-classing
    3. Fix multi-classing

    Had they actually done it the right way none of this would even be a problem.

    If you dont know what im talking about here it is.

    If you decide to multi-class the levels of your classes can not be more than 1lvl apart. I.E. A 11thlvl wizard/rogue would have to have 6lvls wizzy and 5lvls rogue(or vice-a-versa)to take no penalties.

    The penalty for for being more than 1lvl "off" is 20% of your xp.

    Every race has a favored class. So if you wizard rogue was a halfling you could do 9 wizzy and 2 rogue and not suffer any penalty because a halflings favored class is rogue and not subject to the penalties. However, if you add anyother class it must be within 1 lvl of the wizard lvls because for the purpose of multi-classing its almost like the rogue levels dont exist.

    Edit: fixed xp penalty on multi-classing

    also, everyone would make humans, who treat their highest level class as favored class.

  12. #12
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    1: Reduce Favorite Enemy Enhancment bonus'
    1a: Increase Mob Diversity within a Module.
    2: Change Tempest AC Type (Done)
    3: Provide more options for S&B players to match/Exceed the ac of a Monk splash.
    I think 1a is the key. If they made alot more mob diversity in mods or gave us more content per mod with several different raid bosses/ red name types this would weaken rangers substantially..
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  13. #13
    Community Member Nick_RC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I think 1a is the key. If they made alot more mob diversity in mods or gave us more content per mod with several different raid bosses/ red name types this would weaken rangers substantially..
    Yeah if this actually becomes a reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    We're experimenting with different ways to make damage worthwhile again for both mundane classes and spellcasters.
    Raid boss variability is the only thing that will affect anything as if its anything orange or less just w/p those mobs and FE or crit rage or power surge be damned.

    To be fair lets look at the mobs that came out in last module.

    Drow
    Scorpions (vermin)
    Wolves(animals)
    Mephits (nuetral outsiders)
    Elementals
    kobolds (reptiles)
    Giants
    Ice flensers
    Winterwolves (magical beasts)

    In all honesty there is quite a bit of variation there (mobs yes red names not so much)and some of those most definately arnt your run of the mill FE selections. The problem is who really cares if it aint a FE when stat dmg is so powerful (on hard and elite) and they stat dmg 10% faster anyway...Then red named kobold, efreet, elemental, abberation, giant and dragon and undead.

    I wish i had something more consructive to say but im not sure how best to proceed either...

    Edit : I dont believe an overt nerfing is the right way as it unfairly impacts those players who built there toons under those guidelines which they were given - without a full respec mechanism (which i highly doubt will be implemented). I think bolstering of other abilities is the way to go or more discreet 'external nerfs' like a reduction in stat damage effectiveness combined with more varied mobs per module. I generally look at offensive measures as thats where the majority of my experience lies - il leave the defense to borror0 and others.
    Last edited by nick_robinsonchia; 02-07-2009 at 12:49 PM.
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  14. #14
    Community Member honkuimushi's Avatar
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    The only thing that makes Ranger/ Monks arguably overpowered is that they can raise 2 stats for AC without having to worry about caps. With the ease of gaining stat points in DDO compared to D&D, it's more noticeable.

    I think that the Armor Mastery enhancements should take a page from the Toughness book and let everyone take a few levels very cheaply. If you make it so that even non-dwarven characters without Fighter levels can expect to get the full benefit of starting at 14 dex, it would not seem so overpowered.

    I think the next step would be to remove the first step of the centered AC bonus and start be giving you +1 at level 5, just like in PnP. If you think that that hurts monks too much, add additional AC bonuses as enhancements at higher levels like the Paladin enhancements.

    Finally, give the mobs scaling attack bonuses. They don't purposely inturrupt their attack to maximize their high AB attacks and by giving them penalties to later attacks, you make it so that the barbarian with 30 AC gets hit less often than the 8 AC Barbarian. This gives AC some meaning even if you can't hit the current "magic number."

    Edit: I think that eventually, we will need some sort of passive DR for shields, but that isn't completely on topic here. Still, AC really does need a full review.
    Last edited by honkuimushi; 02-07-2009 at 11:13 AM.

  15. #15
    Community Member Jendrak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkuimushi View Post
    The only thing that makes Ranger/ Monks arguably overpowered is that they can raise 2 stats for AC without having to worry about caps. With the ease of gaining stat points in DDO compared to D&D, it's more noticeable.

    I think that the Armor Mastery enhancements should take a page from the Toughness book and let everyone take a few levels very cheaply. If you make it so that even non-dwarven characters without Fighter levels can expect to get the full benefit of starting at 14 dex, it would not seem so overpowered.

    I think the next step would be to remove the first step of the centered AC bonus and start be giving you +1 at level 5, just like in PnP. If you think that that hurts monks too much, add additional AC bonuses as enhancements at higher levels like the Paladin enhancements.

    Finally, give the mobs scaling attack bonuses. They don't purposely inturrupt their attack to maximize their high AB attacks and by giving them penalties to later attacks, you make it so that the barbarian with 30 AC gets hit less often than the 8 AC Barbarian. This gives AC some meaning even if you can't hit the current "magic number."

    Edit: I think that eventually, we will need some sort of passive DR for shields, but that isn't completely on topic here. Still, AC really does need a full review.
    I agree on the boosted stats section. But if this game wasnt a Monty Hall wet dream this wouldnt be anywhere near as bad.

    As for the ac section it is done exactly like in PnP and doesnt need to be "fixed". Heres the text/link from/to the SRD:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm[
    AC Bonus (Ex)
    When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

    These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.

    And finally, AGREED. Mobs should definatly behave move like PC's. By behave i mean, scaling attack bonus, concentration checks, no more "free" Meta-everything spell casting, blanket immunities.
    Last edited by Jendrak; 02-07-2009 at 11:22 AM.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    And finally, AGREED. Mobs should definatly behave move like PC's. By behave i mean, scaling attack bonus, concentration checks, no more "free" Meta-everything spell casting, blanket immunities.
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  17. #17
    Community Member honkuimushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jendrak View Post
    As for the ac section it is done exactly like in PnP and doesnt need to be "fixed". Heres the text/link from/to the SRD:http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm[
    AC Bonus (Ex)
    When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five monk levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

    These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
    Notice that the Monk starts gaining an AC Bonus at level 5. In DDO they start Gaining it at level 2. I have no problem with removing that and making AC increases beyond the normal +5 an enhancement which is available at higher levels. Even putting it at 1st level would make it less attractive for splashing.

    Now, I don't agree that the Ranger/Monk Combination is inherently unbalanced. Spalshing Monk is only available to Lawful characters and that rules out any combinations with Barbarian or Bard. And since we have a 3 class maximum, it limits you to 2 other classes.

    You also have a problem with MAD. A monk needs every stat except for Intelligence and Charisma. But for those going for a really high AC, they need Combat Expertise and need at least a 13 Intelligence. Also, this combo is mostly good for finesse characters. Even with the Monk splash, I'm not sure a Strength based Ranger could get their Dex and Wisdom high enough to get a Higher AC in robes than with a Mithril Breasplate or the Delving Suit.

    Now, the Icy Rainments are a complication. My faored solution is to allow Dodge bonuses to stack from different items to stack, but with a limit between +4 and +10. The amount of equipment that grants the bonus should be increased so that the best bonuses are reserved for one type of character. The bonus for DT Armor should probably be increased to +4 so that it is equal to the item using the same slot and so it doesn't nullify the Chattering Ring.

    If you do that and make it so that mobs do not always attack at their highest bonus, I think you'll find that Ranger/ Monks are nice, but not overpowered. I strongly oppose tying the Wisdom bonus to Monk level because that goes completely against PnP rules and screws over those who made these characters and invested tomes and bound items. This isn't like Evasion in heavy armor where it was pointed out from the beginning that it was against the rules and a potential problem.

    When you look at the total bonus from Wisdom, it's nice, but not extreme. Especially since you have to forego using armor. A +5 mithril chainshirt will give you +9 to AC. A +5 mithril breastplate or the Delving Suit will give you +10. You won't cap your dex bonus until 20 or 22. If you take my suggestion for making Dex cap increasers more common, that could go up to 24 or 26. +5 Mithril full Plate can get +11 to Armor and at least 3 more fom dex. The best bracers are currently +8 and I wouldn't say that those are easily available. +7 or +6 are more available. So without Armor you start down about 2 AC. This is where the Rainments come in, but hopefully, that will be dealt with.

    Now for wisdom bonus, a 14 Wisdom gives you +2, a +6 item will give you +3 and a +2 tome will give you +1. So for a Tome and 6 build points, you get +6 to AC. You could get 1 more if you took 2 levels of monk and took the wisdom enhancement and put a point from level ups or a +3 tome in wisdom. +6 is 1 less than a +5 heavy shield. So if you start out about 2 points lower than someone with the Delving Suit and if they put on a +5 Heavy shield, they're up by 3. You can go Tempest for 2 to 4 more, but the shield user can use the Alchemical recepie to get an additional +1.

    It seems to me that the Wisdom bonus balances out fairly close to a shield. The dodge bonus issue creates a problem, but that's really a separate issue. I do think that shields need some love. The allowable enchantments should probably be increased and something like Greensteel crafting should probably be added. I also support passive DR for using a shield. But I really don't see a problem with the numbers from the Wisdom boost to AC.

  18. #18
    Community Member esoitl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honkuimushi View Post
    The only thing that makes Ranger/ Monks arguably overpowered is that they can raise 2 stats for AC without having to worry about caps. With the ease of gaining stat points in DDO compared to D&D, it's more noticeable.

    I think that the Armor Mastery enhancements should take a page from the Toughness book and let everyone take a few levels very cheaply. If you make it so that even non-dwarven characters without Fighter levels can expect to get the full benefit of starting at 14 dex, it would not seem so overpowered.

    I think the next step would be to remove the first step of the centered AC bonus and start be giving you +1 at level 5, just like in PnP. If you think that that hurts monks too much, add additional AC bonuses as enhancements at higher levels like the Paladin enhancements.

    Finally, give the mobs scaling attack bonuses. They don't purposely inturrupt their attack to maximize their high AB attacks and by giving them penalties to later attacks, you make it so that the barbarian with 30 AC gets hit less often than the 8 AC Barbarian. This gives AC some meaning even if you can't hit the current "magic number."

    Edit: I think that eventually, we will need some sort of passive DR for shields, but that isn't completely on topic here. Still, AC really does need a full review.
    In red: Then what is left to distingusih Fighters from other classes?
    I think it's not a very attractive addition and would nerf Fighters to a degree. The Toughness is a valid change as what's to say that certain races are not allowed to become tougher while some can? The greater durability of Dwarves and WF is reflected in an increased bonus to the enhancement line. Fighters are the supposed masters of weapons and armour and hence should have a unique line to allow them to be better with both.

    In green: I doubt this would do anything besides actually take away slightly from a pure Monk. I will agree with you that they should never have changed the progression from the PHB but the centred bonus is hardly the issue with the splash build. It's the fact they can get the Monk's WIS AC bonus with only 1 Monk level, which for a Ranger, can be a substantial ammount. After all, WIS isn't essential but it's not bad for a Ranger so generally it isn't a base 8 dump stat. Taking away the +1 from centred isn't going to change the build. Half of these builds probably aren't willing to take the DPS hit using kamas to even bother being centred anyways so you basically are taking a meaningless 1 AC from a pure Monk.

    In blue: That doesn't solve anything. In fact, it's counter intuitive. In a turn based system getting a minus to have more attacks is a worth while sacrifice. Getting penalized for becoming stronger? Doesn't make sense.
    Also, if the big problem is having a TWF splash build have too high an AC how is lowering the monsters attack going to solve anything? It's just going to make it worse as then they worry about one attack and then they're safe until the next attack sequence.

    In grey: This is a common request but I disagree. There is no reason to break the core rules regarding the function of armour. It's in fact working properly but with the current rules system it just doesn't reflect the same use that a pen and paper AC does.


    All in all, and back to the OP, I say do nothing.
    Am I stating there is nothing wrong with the build? Not exactly.

    There should be some sort of cap to the WIS bonus for a non-pure Monk but since it made the game in this state I say leave it.
    What some of us may not be considering though is we are comparing a Multi-class build with very good synergy including one of, if not the best, PrE released to date with builds that may or may not be multiclassed with less synergy and no PrEs attached. Let's wait to see what the PrEs bring to help out with shield bearing characters. I have a feeling we will see a definite shift in the power levels, maybe never to an equal footing AC wise, but it will get better. One more thing you have to consider is that the best items have favoured the Monk-Ranger build. Once a shield bearer gets an Icy Raiments level item to put in their gear set you'll see a big change in the utility.

  19. #19
    Community Member Treerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    1. Nothing.

    2. Let turbine raise the to-hit and hit points of mobs even more.

    3. Reduce the ability to use monk AC in some maner.

    4. Reduce the tempest bonus in some maner.

    5. ???
    1. That way lies the death of the game more surely than any other change. Keeping the situation the same when the situation is already making people upset just means those people more convinced that the developers are not interested in the health of the game.

    2. Bad idea; that was done with Gianthold and the the modules since and instead of increasing the number of viable classes its shrunk them to a point where "not a ranger, not a barbarian, not a cleric, not a buff & PK/ FoD Sorc? Sorry not letting you into the raid."

    3. Best possible fix. As has been said over and over - make the maximum wisdom bonus a function of monk levels (and please do the same for paladin save bonuses). Yes people will cry that their "uberized fotm multiclass" is not longer the best tank and the best dps: these people would cry just as hard if other classes where brought up to their levels because they are no longer at the top of the food chain.

    They'll throw a tantrum for a month or so, threaten to leave the game (a handful might even cancel their accounts for a month), and generally clutter the forums and game with their whining about how unfair the change was. Then they'll quitely come back and act like nothing ever happened. As for the few that actually do quit? Odds are those are the ones who have quite a few black marks against them for violating the games code of conduct. Getting rid of them just saves Turbine from losing more customers to the misanthropes need to abuse everyone else to make themselves feel better.

    4. Make it a shield bonus so it won't stack with the shield spell (and get them the equivalent AC of having a shield without sacrificing damage). Still useful, just not allowing them to reach game-breaking levels.
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by redoubt View Post
    1. Nothing.

    2. Let turbine raise the to-hit and hit points of mobs even more.

    3. Reduce the ability to use monk AC in some maner.

    4. Reduce the tempest bonus in some maner.

    5. ???
    5. Make dodge bonuses from items work like every other AC bonus in the game.

    6. Reduce the meaning of a high AC by lowering the attack bonuses. Diminishing returns FTW. (It works for paladin splashes.)
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for wildshape!
    • Redo the Favor rewards so there is a reason to do max favor again.
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Task Lynnabel with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

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