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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Ever read Wikipedia talk pages? The drama we have here is nothing compared to what they have there.

    In a perfect world, it would be great but...
    Of course this would be something that could be turned on and off as needed.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    The issue is not the use of Namespace but rather the complete lack of consistency throughout the server by both Turbine Staff and those of us who have entered information. We need a standard.
    As an example “The Coin Lords” vs. “Coin Lords” or “Waterworks” vs. “Waterworks” vs. “The Waterworks” vs. “the waterworks”.
    Exactly, and you have no idea of how silly and technical it can get.
    1. Try to guess what it the difference between "quest" and "adventure" in DDO. that one is an headache.
    2. Spell me all base weapons correctly, as they are in-game.

    I warn you, both are trick questions. Think about it.

    Before you say it's unimportant, it is. The naming used has a lot of impact and is at the core of a wiki's structure. The users must agree on a way to spell and choose the correct naming for everything. If not, the first user that comes in front of this challenge may have to decide himself and it will become the standard. That is rarely a good thing.

    The usage of namespace in the Compendium makes little sense because it is against wiki standards (meaning, newcomers have to learn something totally new), because it makes browsing/editing harder and because it causes a lot of problem when trying to add more content on the wiki. Under what namespace do I put AC? Agents of Argonnessen? Charisma?

    It's an overuse of categorization, with no gain.

    There's a thing called category. Use it Turbine. It serves at purpose, at least.
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  3. #43

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    After reading about namespaces on Mediawiki's meta-wiki I now agree with Borror0. Categories are a much better choice. Namespaces should basically be used for creating sub-wikis (Help, Special, United States, China, Europe, and Japan would likely be the ones used here)
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  4. #44
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustice View Post
    After reading about namespaces on Mediawiki's meta-wiki I now agree with Borror0. Categories are a much better choice. Namespaces should basically be used for creating sub-wikis (Help, Special, United States, China, Europe, and Japan would likely be the ones used here)
    Just to be be clear on my end. I understand Turbine's use of Namespace, it makes perfect sense to me why they did what they did; However I don't totally agree with what they have done.

    However when in Rome.....

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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    it makes perfect sense to me why they did what they did.
    Why did they do it?
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Why did they do it?
    Yeah got about Six weeks? Actually this course might be an entire semsister in length, let me pull out my course guide.... Yeap 5 Credits....

    Might I suggest "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" by Abelson and Sussman as the light reading to prepare for the course.

    However in a nut shell my one sentance response; Turbine took a bureaucratic approach to the data system causing stove piping of the data to allow for easier manipulation by automated systems.

    The Twilight Avengers are always recruiting - http://twilightavengersofeberron.yuku.com/topic/655

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldyGopher View Post
    However in a nut shell my one sentance response; Turbine took a bureaucratic approach to the data system causing stove piping of the data to allow for easier manipulation by automated systems.
    ... which could have been accomplished, and to better effect with categories. At first, I did agree with you, Goldy (for the same reasons, being a code monkey myself), but after learning more about what they are for, it doesn't make sense.

    Keeping a heretical structure, though does make sense. Subcategories take care of that nicely. I was thinking of them like namespaces in code, but that doesn't really apply here. They are very different animals.
    Last edited by Ustice; 01-22-2009 at 03:53 PM.
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  8. #48
    Community Member Thanimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustice View Post
    heretical structure
    Pretty awesome Freudian slip there!

  9. #49
    The Top Side GoldyGopher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustice View Post
    ... which could have been accomplished, and to better effect with categories. At first, I did agree with you, Goldy (for the same reasons, being a code monkey myself), but after learning more about what they are for, it doesn't make sense.

    Keeping a heretical structure, though does make sense. Subcategories take care of that nicely. I was thinking of them like namespaces in code, but that doesn't really apply here. They are very different animals.
    Stop Editting....

    In my understanding of media Wiki (as opposed to a different Wiki product we use) Catagories and Subcatagories only effect the way data is displayed not nessecarily the way the data is stored nor how it is interacted with by automated systems.

    The wiki we use at my work was chosen because it is a more hieratical structure as opposed to the flat structure of others. This allows the automated systems (Everything from search engines to automated data creation) to ummm flow/run/umm, not the exact word I want but whatever, with fewer issues.

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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    ... Your main rebuttal, as I understand it, is that somehow the Compendium would be of a lesser quality or would contain (more) misinformation. I can see how you come to believe that as it is a common misunderstanding, but those arguments are unfounded. I often hear people talk about the low quality of information in wikis, but research as shown that isn't usually the case (if you want more links, I can dig a few more). The power of people coming together to achieve a goal is surprising...
    <sigh>

    No that is not even close to my "main rebuttal"

    <deep sigh>

    I do not fear the wiki. I use ours. I read yours. I've even made a handful of very minor contributions to Wikipedia.

    It is not about wiki=good or wiki=bad at all. It is about suitability of the tool to the task. Most of your suggestions are fine - awesome even - for the parts of the compendium that are intended to be user content. But some of the compendium is intended to be the game documentation: professionally designed by graphic artists, easy to use, authoritative, and stable.

    I already quoted the guy who invented wiki. Even he believes you do not use wiki for everything. Pick the right tool.

    Hammers are great! GREAT! but they make lousy toothpicks.
    Last edited by geoffhanna; 01-23-2009 at 08:12 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    But some of the compendium is intended to be the game documentation: professionally designed by graphic artists, easy to use, authoritative, and stable.
    Let's review each aspect:
    • Graphic artists: Which page wins for aesthetic this one or that one?
    • Easy to use:
      • If the users find it hard to use, they can redesign it. Which is easier to use this page or that page?
      • If FlaggedRev is added, the user does not have to ponder on whether or not the unofficial information is accurate.
      • Please explain how the current version would be any easier to use than a wiki.
    • Authoritative: I already addressed that point.
    • Stable: Stability is meaningless if it is misinformation.

    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    I already quoted the guy who invented wiki. Even he believes you do not use wiki for everything. Pick the right tool!
    If you are referring to the comment I am thinking of, he said "A wiki is not a carefully crafted site for casual visitors. Instead, it seeks to involve the visitor in an ongoing process of creation and collaboration that constantly changes the Web site landscape."

    In other words, a wiki was not editor friendly by nature. Many improvements have been done in the nine years that passed since then. I am not saying it is still not scary for the user, but there is little differences between the current version of the Compendium and a real wiki. The users that would be scared by a real wiki would still be scared by the current version.
    Last edited by Borror0; 01-23-2009 at 08:14 PM.
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  12. #52

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    I can't defeat repetitive arguments without also becoming repetitive. But there was never a chance of changing your opinion, I knew that going in, and I'm cool with it.

    Turbine, if you read this thread (possible) and made it this deep in spite of all the vitriol on the first page (unlikely), please count my vote on this topic as:

    PLEASE DO NOT IMPLEMENT SUGGESTIONS #1, #3, #10 or #12 FROM THE OP.

    I'm out

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by geoffhanna View Post
    I can't defeat repetitive arguments without also becoming repetitive. But there was never a chance of changing your opinion, I knew that going in, and I'm cool with it.
    I'm more than willing to change my position, but you're not bringing any solid argument here.

    By the way, there is no reason at all to reject request #10 and #12. At least, none you have brought up.
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  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    [/LIST][*]Stable: Stability is meaningless if it is misinformation. [/LIST]
    Moreover, since the game changes over time, stability would be a weakness. We need a dynamic system. Wikis are one of the most fluid documentation types available.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolero View Post
    Post Script: On an unrelated note, your parser tags are in the next Compendium update, just got a confirmation on it yesterday
    Woot! /dance
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  16. #56
    Community Member Mercules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ustice View Post
    Talking from experience, in these cases the problem is that management doesn't understand the real issue, and they make a decision based on that. I think that had the web developers offered the FlaggedRev option, it likely would have been the road that management would have taken, but then they would likely have locked down most articles. I think that what we have is a compromise that just didn't work out as well as we would like.
    Could be like my work. New manager....

    New Boss: "What Merc? You have 14 years of Technical Support Experience with various products/companies, and 3 years working specifically with this product? That is nice. We put our tech support team together in about a year and now have 14 techs supporting our customers base. We know what we are doing and you will do things our way."

    Me: "Funny, we have 3 techs supporting an even larger user base and getting better service level numbers and work closely with the development team and QA to assure the customer gets what they want with a true flow of ideas, not some hierarchical game of who gets to claim the credit."

    We mentioned 4 months ago there would be an issue with international support when we took it over from one of our distributors concerning returning a hardware device. "Oh, well we can address that if it becomes an issue." It will become an issue. "But you don't see it being a 'big' issue, do you?" Well no not too many, but isn't one ticked off customer who can't use our product and therefore is not spending money on it an issue?

    So... last week. the issue came up, 2 weeks after we took over for the distributor. Now we have to have meetings about it. The Proposed solution is to send the device to our regional office, then to us, then back to the regional office, and then back to the customer... all international shipping and not by air if there is a cheaper options. So a month later the customer can generate a report for a client or court date? Um... not going to work.

    The Web Design team could have explained the possible issues in detail, but management didn't believe it would actually be an issue. Happens ALL the time in business.
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment."
    -Barry LePatner

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