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  1. #1421
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    To be honest after the beta I TRed my exploiter into a tempest trapmonkey (1monk -> 1 fgt). The light armor is now much better than robes. An interesting side effect is I crafted some heavy armor. In fights where there is not a bunch of spell damage losing evasion is not so bad, and for tough melee it is better to wear heavy. On my char its giving up 5% dodge for 10% more PRR (lowers incoming damage) and about 5-6 more ac which is at least another 5% mitigation.

  2. #1422
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    Having followed this thread for a long time now I will say that Faent and Grodon9999 are two of the biggest supporters of this build normally. If one of them is saying in it's current form it is not the build it once was (This is just a few months after they argued it was still very valid pre-u14) then I would trust any one of their judgement. (Waiting for Grodon to chime in on his thoughts - Maybe he knows how to save it)

    Some of the arguments that it is still worthwhile seem like they are clutching at straws. You can do an Elite level 20 quest at level 22. I would hope so. Some Exploiters could do it at 20. Two more levels should make it easier. You can cast displacement. We could before. Quicken. My blue bar can't sustain too many Quickened Heals. (Though if it could this would be a fantastic add). The issue was never if an Exploiter can step back from combat and heal. If you have to switch out gear constantly to try and get a huge heal hit on yourself you are stopping doing damage.

    It's not so much if a build is playable. Any build is playable. You could make a 7/7/6 fighter, sorc, wizard and play it at level I'm sure. Enough gear can compensate for a lot. The issue was that the Exploiter excelled at many things and now that gap between playability and excellence is shrinking.

    I can only hope that additional tinkering will be done by the devs to get this back to its former glory. This was my first character so I am emotionally attached to the build and not ready to give up on it, but it will be shelved for a bit to see what happens. The Exploiter has become The Expunged.

  3. #1423
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Your spell cooldowns with Combat Expertise active are now three times as long. If you're using Combat Expertise, you can cast 1/3 of the CSW's that you could cast if you weren't using it. So you're stuck scroll-healing yourself, which means you're stuck giving up DPS (and you're running around like a chicken with it's head cut off hoping you make your Concentration checks). And your DPS was already subpar.
    Who uses Combat Expertise these days? You don't need it and haven't needed it since we got the 5 AC boost from Ship Buffs. If you want to go with that feat go ahead but don't knock the build/class because your build is stuck in 2009. I am considering this for my level 24 feat though in full disclousure so I can twist in the Improved Version for the PRR.

    If you've seen the numbers you can put out as a Level 5 FoTW or LD you'd never accuse this of being low-DPS. I have seen these and my jaw dropped. Not as much as my fighter, but 2000 point Adrenaline crits are just frigging great as are the constat stream of high numbers you get as an LD with perpetual haste boosts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Against trash? Your survivability is so-so. It's lower than it was before. And most bosses have True Seeing. So you lost there too. And you're already a hit-point gimp. And again, let's remember that your DPS is subpar. Basically, you're a gimp.
    Absolutely nonsense. Do you even play this toon anymore? Please level yours up and post again later because all of what you are spouting is out of date.

    Most Rangers/rogues with the right EDs are sitting at between 700-800 HP, some even more, and at least 600 with a lousy ED that you're training up for fate points.

    Yes the DPS is less than my fighter (not sure about that once I max out Shadow Dancer) but my fighter doesn't have 250 point quickened CSW and can't get traps in Epic Elites. My ranger can.

    Regarding survivability are you kidding me? Even in Epic Elites you get missed more than you used to in old epics. In epic hard or lower (which is what you'll be running 99% of the time for the ED XP grind) I've never felt the need for anyone to watch my health at all. I've even BEEN THE HEALER for a few epic hard groups.

    Bosses have trued seeing. Cloudkill FTW, still get the same 20% concealment bonus as if you were burred.

    Seriously drop the ill-informed d00m.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  4. #1424
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    Quote Originally Posted by etelan View Post
    What feats make sense to add to this build at 21/24. Some ideas:

    Weapon Focus + Power Critical
    Point Blank Shot
    Tactical feats?
    Precision (does the fort bypass work?)
    Quick Draw

    Unfortunately, none of the really cool epic only feats are unlocked on this build.
    Quicken at 21. Hoping you already have maximize. You can get a away with a ton of reckless behavior if you have both of these feats.

    For Level 24 I'm still on the fence, considering Combat Expertise as I have some crazy idea for a high AC/PRR/Dodge variant of Unyeilding sentinel.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  5. #1425
    Community Member Aerendil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Your spell cooldowns with Combat Expertise active are now three times as long. If you're using Combat Expertise, you can cast 1/3 of the CSW's that you could cast if you weren't using it. So you're stuck scroll-healing yourself, which means you're stuck giving up DPS (and you're running around like a chicken with it's head cut off hoping you make your Concentration checks). And your DPS was already subpar.



    Against trash? Your survivability is so-so. It's lower than it was before. And most bosses have True Seeing. So you lost there too. And you're already a hit-point gimp. And again, let's remember that your DPS is subpar. Basically, you're a gimp.
    1) when your PRR, dodge, and AC is sufficient enough to avoid incoming damage the majority of the time, CSW isn't overly necessary all that often.

    2) most bosses *do* have true seeing, good point. Oh wait a minute, why is the boss attacking you? That's right - it shouldn't be.
    Moot point.

    3) dps was never "subpar". It was generally regarded as "good", though not "excellent". Let's also be clear that there's nothing preventing an Exploiter from going Fury of the Wild. In fact, as many Exploiters went with Khopeshes, Fury is probably the ideal ED to up their dps.
    Or you could go fully defensive with some of the other ED's. To each their own.
    With EDs now, there are so many options to square away any weaknesses your build may have, that it's silly to argue about any inherent flaws.

  6. #1426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Who uses Combat Expertise these days? You don't need it and haven't needed it since we got the 5 AC boost from Ship Buffs.
    It used to be useful for tanking some Elite bosses (such as Elite Suulo). Now it must be dropped, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    If you want to go with that feat go ahead but don't knock the build/class because your build is stuck in 2009.
    I'll give you that my Exploiter who could hit 600 HP and 80+ self-buffed AC pre-MOTU is stuck in the past. There's a reason for that. Wasting time trying to improve it isn't worth it, IMO, when another build can do pretty much everything better. It's seen too many nerfs, and it's time to move on. It's not time to desperately try to salvage the build. It used to be stellar. Now it's mediocre. If you want to work hard on improving mediocre, that's of course your call. I'll stick to stellar builds and work on improving those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    If you've seen the numbers you can put out as a Level 5 FoTW or LD you'd never accuse this of being low-DPS. I have seen these and my jaw dropped. Not as much as my fighter, but 2000 point Adrenaline crits are just frigging great as are the constat stream of high numbers you get as an LD with perpetual haste boosts.
    There's no question that DPS will go up as you level Epic Destinies. It's obvious that it will. And it's still subpar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Yes the DPS is less than my fighter (not sure about that once I max out Shadow Dancer) but my fighter doesn't have 250 point quickened CSW and can't get traps in Epic Elites. My ranger can.
    Who cares about traps? I returned to the expansion yesterday after a week long vacation. Is getting traps in Epic Elite a requirement now? I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Regarding survivability are you kidding me? Even in Epic Elites you get missed more than you used to in old epics.
    Well, duh. Since you basically didn't get missed at all in old epics, and the changes made mediocre AC count for something, of course you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    In epic hard or lower (which is what you'll be running 99% of the time for the ED XP grind) I've never felt the need for anyone to watch my health at all. I've even BEEN THE HEALER for a few epic hard groups.
    Not impressed. Epic Hard is pathetically easy. Any toon will shine in that content, no matter how gimped. I'm not the least bit surprised that you're tearing it up. What I am surprised by is that you're willing to invest so much work in a subpar build. I'll be TR'ing my Exploiter into a Monk, and he'll do everything better than your Exploiter (except traps). I will not be wasting my time trying to improve or "fix" my gimp by leveling up Epic Destinies when I could do so much better by leveling them up on another toon.

  7. #1427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    No, it's not nonsense.
    Yes, it is .


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    I'm sure that my Exploiter can still solo Sins Elite at level 20. (It already basically required Displacement clickies or scrolls, post vorpal nerf, unless you were moving very slowly.) I'm also sure that you can solo it better than you can at 20 when you level past 20 and take more feats. You mentioned Quicken.
    Could have done it at 20 as well, just didn't try it as there too much else to do that night and I was level 21+ in like an hour. Have solo'd it many times at 20. This was significantly EASIER than it used to be because of quicken.

    People are glooming and d000ming about how this build was gimped and couldn't do WHAT IT USED TO BE ABLE TO DO and I'm saying that's nonsense. it can still do much of what it was able to do before, probably most of it (I don't see tanking Elite Sulu but *** I might just try it), and can get more tricks up it's sleeves with the right ED stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    If you're using Combat Expertise, your cooldown is now disgusting. I wouldn't use Combat Expertise anymore, however, since the benefit is utter crapola now and the penalty is massive. I suppose my Exploiter's conc-opp gear will now come in handy and help to offset the extra SP costs of Quicken and/or Maximize. (He currently has Maximize). Superior Ardor IV pots were nerfed too. It's not like Rangers have the SP to constantly cast Quickened and Maximized CSW. And a mere Quickened CSW is gimpy unless you boost your healing amp.
    Don't use Combat Expertise.

    I'm STR-based and have been able to hit the low 80s AC needed to survive there with PA on since ship-buffs came out. That works out to mid 60s now (though I re-did my twists and last night was much higher, didn't want to do that for Sins Elite as it'd be cheating) and still works where it used to.

    Why the heck would you NOT boost your healing amp? AC never worked in epics before, HP recovery was the name of that game and any melee worth his salt should/did invest in this. I only have claw-set and 20% racial, nothing crazy like some people with the multiple pally PLs. 3 ranks ranger devotion, 66 Spell-power devotion trinket, and 20 Spell-power pots. CSW hits for 200-250, when not in "oh ****, I'm gonna die" mode heal scrolls work between fighters. The 750ish SP is enough to keep you alive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Epic Hard is currently a joke.
    Yes, MOST epic hard is a joke. But show me a melee, ANY MELEE, soloing Epic Elite and then you might have a point. It's not like many Exploiter Rangers were soling epics before U14 and it suddenly got gimper.

    Epic Hard is the standard end-game play right now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Finally, I see no good reason (aside from a flavor preference) to invest in a now gimped build. Pretty much everything the Exploiter did well can be done far better by another build now. Why waste your time trying to twink out your nerfed Exploiter? It will always be beyond supbar now, compared to something else you could build. Are you just personally attached to it?
    it's no more sub-par than it was before they U14 update.

    85% of a real-melee's damage (I'm pulling this figure out my rectum as I really have no idea how to calc this stuff now) with great self-healing and Epic Elite Capable trap-monkey abilities.

    Does he do as much damage as my fighter? Hell no, at least not in a "has aggro" way. but my fighter can't heal himself except for SF pots (which really suck at times do do the movement penalty) or pick a lock, or get the traps in Epic Elite VON 3.

    Will my 18/1/1 stay an 18/1/1 and not get TR'd into something else? I cannot say. I don't see holding on to the monk level for much longer but I'm attached to the rogue level. I don't want to lose the feat and don't think LRing the monk level to a fighter level is worth it at this time because I hate re-doing my tool bars.

    But I like having a generalist as the rest of the toons in my stable are all specialists.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  8. #1428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    It used to be useful for tanking some Elite bosses (such as Elite Suulo). Now it must be dropped, yes.
    But it wasn't needed, hasn't been for some time. An STR-based 18/1/1 could hit that level of AC for Elite Sulu without CE


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    I'll give you that my Exploiter who could hit 600 HP and 80+ self-buffed AC pre-MOTU is stuck in the past. There's a reason for that. Wasting time trying to improve it isn't worth it, IMO, when another build can do pretty much everything better. It's seen too many nerfs, and it's time to move on. It's not time to desperately try to salvage the build. It used to be stellar. Now it's mediocre. If you want to work hard on improving mediocre, that's of course your call. I'll stick to stellar builds and work on improving those.
    You're the one relying on Combat Expertise. 2009 called, they want their feat back

    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    There's no question that DPS will go up as you level Epic Destinies. It's obvious that it will. And it's still subpar.
    We'll see about that. There's a lot of "per swing" damage in some of these EDs that adds up very fast on 100% off-hand attack toons. It will absolutely be behind a barb and fighter with equal gear but by how much I'm not sure.

    Some new "Sobrien" tests are in order.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Who cares about traps? I returned to the expansion yesterday after a week long vacation. Is getting traps in Epic Elite a requirement now? I doubt it.
    Epic Elite VON3 I think might be the only one it's "needed." Maybe CoF? You can "super Mario" around many but there are a few where it's nice to disable. That's all I can think of of the old stuff

    Spell wards in the new content are a pain in the ass, being able to get rid of them is good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Well, duh. Since you basically didn't get missed at all in old epics, and the changes made mediocre AC count for something, of course you do.
    Your complaining about AC not working, I'm calling that out as being nonsense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Not impressed. Epic Hard is pathetically easy. Any toon will shine in that content, no matter how gimped. I'm not the least bit surprised that you're tearing it up. What I am surprised by is that you're willing to invest so much work in a subpar build. I'll be TR'ing my Exploiter into a Monk, and he'll do everything better than your Exploiter (except traps). I will not be wasting my time trying to improve or "fix" my gimp by leveling up Epic Destinies when I could do so much better by leveling them up on another toon.
    Heck with monk, now way I'm giving up an Epic Chaosblade and two Tier III Alchemicals.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  9. #1429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Your complaining about AC not working, I'm calling that out as being nonsense.
    I don't recall saying anything that was nonsense. What I said is that your survivability has dropped in a lot of content. This is true. And as we all know, it has gone up in epic content. Don't put words into my mouth please.

  10. #1430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    IMO, it's sunk, unless you like flavor builds. The solution is to reroll as a dark monk. (No doubt this is part of Turbine's strategy to sell the monk class.)
    turbines awesome strategy to sell the monk class is to make monk splashed rangers obsolete? there's a flaw in that theory somewhere, i cant quite put my finger on it though.
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  11. #1431
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    turbines awesome strategy to sell the monk class is to make monk splashed rangers obsolete? there's a flaw in that theory somewhere, i cant quite put my finger on it though.
    but the Monk level at this point only really gives you handwraps usage and a feat (which you can also get from fighter). At the level 20 armors you can get slightly more AC with Pajamas but when you factor in the PRR from the leather armor the total defense value is a wash. And the level 25 armors, which I haven't even seen, PJs are definately behind.

    The 25% dodge cap ensures this.

    Long story short I don't think if I was making a new ranger I would bother splashing monk, but I won't bother LRing it out on an existing toon.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  12. #1432
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    Quote Originally Posted by ainmosni View Post
    turbines awesome strategy to sell the monk class is to make monk splashed rangers obsolete? there's a flaw in that theory somewhere, i cant quite put my finger on it though.
    I was waiting for someone to catch that.

  13. #1433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Long story short I don't think if I was making a new ranger I would bother splashing monk, but I won't bother LRing it out on an existing toon.
    Yes, the splash is dead. If you want to make a TWF toon in this day and age, just go monk. They do it better.

  14. #1434
    Community Member etelan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faent View Post
    Yes, the splash is dead. If you want to make a TWF toon in this day and age, just go monk. They do it better.
    I've been playing my exploiter a bit and I don't think this build is dead, it's just no longer an AC build. I went LD and focused on a perma boost build and it's been fun. Great DPS. Maybe not max dps, but better than most. Still handles EE traps.

  15. #1435
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    Been a while since I've seen any activity on this thread and since I just dusted this Char off and tried EE Beyond the Rift and got my *** handed to me I'm guessing I may be stuck in well before 2009. Perhaps I'm in 1912 with this build.

    Given that many have had a chance to play this post u14 (and 15) what would post one of this thread look like now with build focus, feats, etc?

  16. #1436
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumbIe View Post

    Given that many have had a chance to play this post u14 (and 15) what would post one of this thread look like now with build focus, feats, etc?
    Classic build from the first page, Maximize instead of Combat Expertise. Maybe some more STR and CON and less Wisdom.

    For level 21 feat: Quicken

    For level 24 feat: I'm still not sure, have Stunning Blow right now and it's okay.

    Right now Fury of the Wild is the best ED for this, it might still be after the Adrenaline+Manyshot combo is nerfed.

    Grind the hell out of your EDs as you can reap major benefits changing between them. As a Sentinel I can get enough defense/threat to tank Elite Sulu in TOD and self-heal, as a FoTW I can do a bunch of damage, as a Dreadnaught my tactics actually land on stuff.

    As a Sentinel I can get the defense high enough that I barely take any damage in EH content (not worth it at all in EE) but that's usually a poor call. I've solo'd EH EDA as sentinel, dread, and FoTW and I have to say FoTW was the easiest. Even though I barely take any damage as a sentinel it takes so long to kill things that it's just downright painful. A FoTW gets hit a lot more but kills so much faster that it more than makes up for it. My Exploiter also has two Epic Chaos Blades (vamprism) and a torc (SP regen) so YMMV depending on your gear.

    Defense works differently and at level 25 you will want to be in armor and not robes. You need more than just AC do the the diminishing returns. Get an incorporeal item and get dodge gear. Alertness armor with a Dunrobar ring works well for this, epic cloak of night is also great. Blur wands or a perma-blur item is needed as well.

    Focus on self healing, this is important. Get some healing amp gear. Glove of the claw are critical, put 20% on a TOD ring over a stat boost. Get a devotion item for more spell power, I'm stuck with a craftable trinket at this time but it gets the job done. This will keep you alive.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

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  17. #1437
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ape_Man View Post
    Classic build from the first page, Maximize instead of Combat Expertise. Maybe some more STR and CON and less Wisdom.
    Empower Healing may be a more efficient choice over Maximize.
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  18. #1438
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    Quote Originally Posted by emptysands View Post
    Empower Healing may be a more efficient choice over Maximize.
    Bah, go big or go home.

    When I care about efficiency and have time I toss a non-meta'd cure or use a heal scroll. When it's those "ima gonna die!" moments I want that cure hitting for as much as possible.
    Personal d000m level: 83%

    Quote Originally Posted by zwiebelring View Post
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  19. #1439
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    I came back to ddo a week ago havent played since update 2 or 3 and pulled out my explioter. They nerfed it into the ground than buried it. Kinda sad I loved this build it was my first and it had me hooked on TWF but until some changes are made this build is no longer competitive. Im just glad I go to use it when it was at its glory one of the best builds to hit the game for its time.

  20. #1440
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbnett View Post
    I came back to ddo a week ago havent played since update 2 or 3 and pulled out my explioter. They nerfed it into the ground than buried it. Kinda sad I loved this build it was my first and it had me hooked on TWF but until some changes are made this build is no longer competitive. Im just glad I go to use it when it was at its glory one of the best builds to hit the game for its time.
    100% agree. At its prime, it was arguably the most potent build in the game. It was also the most fun toon i've ever played. It could literally do everything. Now it is useless compared to other builds or pure classes. It's kinda sad but it's best to leave this one as a memory and move on.
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