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  1. #41
    Developer Eladrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taojeff View Post
    oh, five tiers? Do tell.
    Arcane Archer.

  2. #42
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    OMG its teh Temmest!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Benefit: Your training has turned you into a whirling tempest of steel, granting a 10% competence bonus to dual wield attack speed and a +2 shield bonus to armor class when two weapon fighting.
    Turning the AC bonus into a shield bonus is not unexpected (and I've seen it proposed before). In fact it makes total logical sense: the guy is using his offhand weapon like a kind of shield, so he can't use another shield. Obviously, the only way that matters in gameplay is that Shield clickies give reduced benefit to Tempests, and eventually zero at tier 3.

    That reduces the value of UMD to a tempest character, which reduces the value of rogue/bard/wizard levels he might have taken before, which is yet another good reason to allow some class-level respec.

    Since the speed bonus is also competence, we can expect to see other ways to get a competence increase to attack rate. It wouldn't be at all suprising if Warchanter 3 has a 5% competence attack-speed song, for example. Also future raid loot might offer competence attack speed. Any addition like that would probably be less than the 10% a tempest has, although as magic items get better, the cost of a slot to wear that item increases.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    The additional attacks gained at tier III are identical to what we originally had planned for (the not-in-the-game) Superior Two Weapon Fighting.
    That looks like it can be a real kick to any non-ranger who wants to TWF. Of course it depends on exactly how much those attacks actually help, but...

    The design objective of (D&D) rangers is that they have the same kind of TWF as available to anyone, but without needing to meet the prereqs. The ability to have a lower dex was benefit enough. Now it looks like they might be seriously surpassing (even if the other character finds some costly way to improve his attack rate).

    It seems you'd open up more design space if there was a way for non-rangers to get the extra TWF attacks, even if they don't have the other speed-bonuses of Tempest. (Maybe Superior TWF as an epic feat at level 20+)

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taojeff View Post
    oh, five tiers? Do tell.
    probably the arcane caster or divine caster progression

  4. #44
    Community Member ahpook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Is it, if you don't have 18 level of ranger?
    Yes. 2 AP's for the equivalence of many feats: weapon focus: everything, and +1 AC. Just because Tier 1 is overpowered doesn't mean that power curve needs to be maintained.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    I expect most people that go that far with a two weapon fighting character to have Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.
    Don't forget about the finesse people who think twin rapiers looks goofy and unbalanced!

  6. #46
    Community Member Inspire's Avatar
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    I like it.

    Although I dont think many people will make builds around tier II of this PrE.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    By the way, is the gain from Tempest II only +1 to-hit and +1 AC? Isn't that a bit weak?
    It's weak because it costs only 2 AP.
    The price of Tempest is front-loaded, so the benefits are too.

  8. #48
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Seems to me like many people ignore it since their ToHit is sufficiently high anyways, but that's a very anecdotal statement just based on what I see on the boards. Of course the premiere two-weapon fighting enhancement will need two-weapon feat pre-reqs, so what else was there for you to use?
    Exactly ... I do not see the expenditure of a feat in the twf realm as being costly... It fits the build.
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  9. #49
    Community Member Arcanoid's Avatar
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    >>That reduces the value of UMD to a tempest character, which reduces the value of
    >> rogue/bard/wizard levels he might have taken before, which is yet another good
    >> reason to allow some class-level respec.

    Actually I think this levels the playing field a bit for the Arcane Archer path with a few levels of Wizard as part of the build.

    With a few levels of Wizard you can now match the AC with a Tempest (by keeping shield up). Obviously you still are missing the Speed and Attack Bonuses but it is closer than it was when you could have the Temest AC bonus and Shield Clicky as stacking.

  10. #50
    Community Member moorewr's Avatar
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    There's no way a TWF-specced fighter can compare to this, even with all the feats and the full Attack haste enhancement progression.

    I STILL think that linking the prestige enhancements to specific classes is a mistake. The v3.5 Prestige Classes have Spell Level, skills, feats, or BAB as pre-reqs, not specific classes. A fighter that takes all the TWF feats ought to qualify for Tempest, for example.
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  11. #51
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    With superior two weapon fighting coming obviously superior two handed fighting will be coming as well in some capacity. I wonder what the attack sequence for both will be like? Hopefully they will clean up the last attack for two handed fighting and the new last attacks will be quicker..
    Last edited by maddmatt70; 01-07-2009 at 10:35 AM.
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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbryan2 View Post
    Also... dex based rangers only have to contend with rapiers in the offhand, and several I nkow simply use shortswords.
    Yes, there's a major difference in light/non-light weapons between strength and finesse characters. The introduction of the 19-20/x3 Khopesh in DDO means that the best non-finesse weapon is better than the best finesse weapon (rapier), while in D&D they were identical (rapier vs scimitar).

    For a finesse person to put a rapier in the offhand is only very slightly better than having a light pick or kukri there; the kukri crits identically to a rapier, and a pick has the same crit power (if you multiply it out). An offhand rapier is only valuable for Puncturing, not DPS.

    But when a strength character replaces his offhand kukri/handaxe/light-pick with a khopesh, his DPS goes way up. There's no light weapon with 19-20/x3 crits, so all his damage bonuses scale up bigger.

    This is why I long-ago suggested adding feats to either create a good exotic finesse weapon, or to increase the crit-mult on an existing finesse weapon. (For example, a feat to give shortswords +1 crit mult on natural 20s)

  13. #53
    Community Member Inspire's Avatar
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    Default Arcane Archer/Caster Splash Notes;

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanoid View Post
    With a few levels of Wizard you can now match the AC with a Tempest (by keeping shield up). Obviously you still are missing the Speed and Attack Bonuses but it is closer than it was when you could have the Temest AC bonus and Shield Clicky as stacking.
    Bad News; Shield(spell) is dispellable, and limited to the spellpoints at your disposal.

    Good News; You can have that +4Ac while using a bow.
    Last edited by Inspire; 01-07-2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason: Added Information.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanoid View Post
    Actually I think this levels the playing field a bit for the Arcane Archer path with a few levels of Wizard as part of the build.
    Yes... and a "levelled playing field" means that past choices someone made are no longer as valuable as they were at that time, so it'd be fair to let him go back and revisit the decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanoid View Post
    With a few levels of Wizard you can now match the AC with a Tempest (by keeping shield up).
    The number is the same, but the benefit is less. An Arcane Archer just doesn't need AC as much as a Tempest does, because he's attacking from range and pulling less aggro.

  15. #55
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Anyone remember how many attacks/round the old STWF was going to give when the devs were talking about releasing it?
    Last edited by Cold Stele; 01-07-2009 at 10:48 AM.

  16. #56
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    why is everyone saying tier 2 is weak? its another +10% to attack speed, unless im reading it wrong

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by moorewr View Post
    There's no way a TWF-specced fighter can compare to this, even with all the feats and the full Attack haste enhancement progression.
    And not even if you're fighting a non-Favored Enemy...

    Quote Originally Posted by moorewr View Post
    I STILL think that linking the prestige enhancements to specific classes is a mistake. The v3.5 Prestige Classes have Spell Level, skills, feats, or BAB as pre-reqs, not specific classes. A fighter that takes all the TWF feats ought to qualify for Tempest, for example.
    That would be an obvious fix, and is something they should pursue, although it wouldn't be quite so simple to add it to DDO.

    You see, for a ranger to spend feats to qualify for Tempest is painful, as they're otherwise nearly useless. But for fighters it would feel trivial, because they have more feat slots than they know what to do with. Before opening Tempest to fighters, they should add more good fighter feats, so that it actually feels like a cost for them to train Mobility and Spring Attack.

    In addition, it should probably only be opened to fighters (and maybe barbs). Paladins should certainly not be able to get Tempest, because stacking Zeal + 10% competence attack...
    Last edited by Angelus_dead; 01-07-2009 at 10:47 AM.

  18. #58

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    I didnt see this asked.. Are the 10% Speed Increases STACKING?

    30% Attack Increase that Stacks with Haste seems insane.....
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  19. #59
    Community Member bobbryan2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear View Post
    why is everyone saying tier 2 is weak? its another +10% to attack speed, unless im reading it wrong
    Even if it were another 10% attack speed bonus... since it's typed now, it wouldn't stack with tier 1.


  20. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    It's not really a problem if what others classes get is balanced for it, but I doubt it really. That's another 10% bonus...
    Borr, doesnt that depend on which hand they give it to? If its to the offhand, doesnt that have only a 1/2 strength mod?

    Please correct me if Im way off on that...
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