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  1. #21
    Community Member Tin_Dragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hafeal View Post
    I love it when you actually have the chance to hit an elemental and on some extraordinary chance they fail their save and are paralyzed. Then you move in for the kill ... and get knocked down while they are paralyzed!

    Awesome.

    That is the Worst most broken aspect of the entire thing for me, the best way I have seen a NON caster in NON Reaver deal, is with Ranged Paralyzers. Thats about it.
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  2. #22
    Community Member Draccus's Avatar
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    I posted an informal survey on monsters a few weeks ago which asked people to pick one monster they'd like to add to the game and one they'd like to remove. I didn't tally the results but I'd estimate 80% of the people mentioned air elementals.

    That kind of overwhelming response, even in an informal, unscientific poll, indicates a true problem with the monster.

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  3. #23
    Community Member GlassCannon's Avatar
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    I didn't take that survey. Put Air Elementals on my #1 To Remove list, right in front of Jariliths(If you get the hint, I really hate Knockdown. Fearful Presence is a bit annoying, but Knockdown is much like Hold Monster, DC150, 1 Second Refresh... if you save, you get to move 1 inch, then get Held again).

    As for adding, I'd like to see some Umber Hulks and a Torrasque...

  4. #24
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlassCannon View Post
    I didn't take that survey. Put Air Elementals on my #1 To Remove list, right in front of Jariliths(If you get the hint, I really hate Knockdown. Fearful Presence is a bit annoying, but Knockdown is much like Hold Monster, DC150, 1 Second Refresh... if you save, you get to move 1 inch, then get Held again).

    As for adding, I'd like to see some Umber Hulks and a Torrasque...
    So you hate knockdown effects, but want confusion? I guess it'd be resistible and would make some fights more interesting.

    While this isn't the place for it, I still really want a full-blown dragon encounter. Combine the mechanics for the dragon fights from The Tor and Prey on the Hunter (jumping, wingbeating, extra effects on the breath weapon, a few additional spells, moving) with some serious full-attacking, tail-slapping, varied spellcasting and, rather than crazy HP, give it a bunch of spells up for defense along with a high enough AC that even the top tier will be missing some of the time. Have it move a lot, and give it some attacks that function in other directions, so even if it is aggro'ed to a single character, it will, say, tail slap behind it and a bit to the side, and cast spells around itself. No weird minion or puzzle mechanic, just one badass dragon.
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  5. #25
    Community Member gHzSWB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    That is not what I mean by preparing, and I tried to spell it out in a previous post.

    Preparation is when YOU, and YOUR character, take some kind of action, bring some kind of item, turn on a skill, stance, or enhancement - to deal with a situation, monster, or puzzle etc.

    It is not a valid agument to say, "Well to be prepared - dont be who you are, reroll a new character and bring that one instead, or just bring SOMEONE ELSE to deal with this problem."

    Thats not preparation, thats saying "Anyone who is NOT x cannot handle this monster no matter what they do, what skills they have, items, potions, clickies, actions, abilities, there is NOTHING YOU CAN DO, so just BE someone else, or leave".

    In D&D a high level character, of ANY class, can take steps, bring an item, set a trap, use tactics, and find a way to deal with something, as everything has a weakness. DDO you have very few tactics to use, a fraction of the items and spells that would be available to a paper character, and skills, saves, and monsters dont work the same way as in paper D&D.

    So instead of having mutliple options in handling something, the ONLY response that people seem to have when defending elementals is; be someone else, or bring someone else. That is no way to design a game if you want any degree of balance or fairness.

    It is not about "Oh something beat me", but because there is NOTHING you can do to stop them, other than being a caster/acrobat/ranger on a unreachable spot shooting at them. Every other class is completely pooched when fighting them, because you cant melee them (unless they are in a dancing ball, which goes back to 'bring a caster').

    Air elementals cheat, and cheat hard, and it makes a LOT of people very angry each and every time they are encountered. And there is no game design reason they HAVE to be that way, as Genies are also air creatures, also have whirlwind form, but only use it sometimes. So the mechanics for the 'as they are in the pnp rules' way to handle them already is in the game...it is just not being used. I for one would like to know why.
    Well said, I agree with much of your commentary. However, it is pretty obvious that since about week two of this game the DEVs have been cheating their butts off just to try to create the facsimile of a fair game or otherwise encounter based outcome game. DDO was terribly designed from day one with a total lack of understanding of how quickly and easily players would blow through the game. To make matters worse the same incompetent DEVs who made the game with too little content and with too little challenge for players made loot tables that game away the farm, and then some, early and often making the already thin and weak content thinner and weaker. So from about month 2 until now Turbine has been playing catch up, coding in cheats (beyond the designed default cheats), and otherwise developing new ways to occupy more player time or force continual re rolls - forgetting entirely about real game building. Such is DDO, complaining about it now is really pointless - DDO is a game of gear grind and character building - what happens during an actual encounter is really just superfluous anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephiroth1084 View Post
    rather than crazy HP
    Exactly what in DDOs history shows Turbine is capable of creating (i.e. faking) difficulty any way other than crazy HP and crazy saves or even more blatant cheats than that? DDO is not developed, it is fabricated - content isn't balanced it is rigged.
    Last edited by gHzSWB; 01-06-2009 at 04:29 PM.
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  6. #26
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turial View Post
    Last I checked everyone could use a ranged weapon of some sort. Carrying a cheap wounding bow or crossbow will do wonders for your preparation for odd critters like air elementals. Will it be as easy as other methods...no but its still preparation for what may be and what you will eventually encounter.
    As others already posted, I dont consider adding a ranged weapon to a 10-12 dex melee a valid option. Missing 90% of the time, then doing almost no damage unless you get bow strength, will take an hour to kill somethign that will close to melee range in about....1.5 seconds.

    If a melee cannot melee a monster - that means the monster is cheating. As was also said already, D&D a player could fight from their back, or cast, but not in DDO, so its a double cheat.

    Old D&D a level 20 fighter could take on a gods avatar and win. Any monster in the game of roughly the same level could be beaten if you have good equipment, a good build, and use some tactics. But no - sorry cannot hit an air elemental.

    I would like to NOT start with the assumption that developers are being deliberately antagonistic to players and designing something that by any standard can be called griefing.

    I would like to make the assumption that, like wolves/hobgoblins being able to auto trip players without actually hittting, which was then eventually changed, that it is an oversight, and they are too busy on new content to get around to air elementals.

    But unless there is some kind of official response, given the extreme nature of just how bad air elementals are broken - sooner or later I will be forced to conclude the worst.

    I try not to make negative posts anymore, but regarding air elementals I maybe will include a direct quote from another player after running Sos recently, to show just how much most people feel about the situation.

    "I would like to find whoever designed air elementals, go to their house, and punch them in the face".

    I dont condone violence, and certainly not over a game. I dont condone getting personal over a game.

    But the quote is a pretty accurate example of just how mad players get when they run into air elementals. You can be having fun, enjoying the game, maybe you get killed by something but at least its from something that 'fights fairly' (they hit you, you can hit them back etc). Then suddenly air elementals appear, knock you off a giant platform, into the last part of the quest that starts while the rest of the group is way up still fighting, or 2 of them decide to run over you repeatedly and you cannot get up for 10 minutes - and now the entire group is spitting mad because....well running into something that cheats, and is unbeatable in melee, and its attack has no defence is beyond frustrating.

    I can understand the desire to try and design a challenge that will make players work harder if some things seem too easy. It is an old problem from monty haul days when players had a 5 page list of magic items and could do just about anything, including kill off Thor in 2 rounds say because a 400 hp 'god' was no challenge.

    But the mechanics of air elemenals is the entirely wrong way to go. There is not one single player that has nice things to say about Turbine right after fighting air elementals, and even though people still keep playing the game because they still enjoy the rest of it usually - this one thing generates a massive amount of dissatisfaction with the company and the game. And by massive I mean pretty much universal.

    I want to see DDO continue, and grow, and get better. But if players are going to enjoy the game more, air elementals, and the completely overpowered knockdown of them and other creatures has to be changed.

  7. #27
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    What would make a nice Mod 9 addition;

    "Air elemental knockdown will only be an 'on hit' effect"

    "Air elemental knocdown will now use the higher of str/dex, reflex saves, or balance skill to resist"

    "Air elementals will now start as a monster that punches as an attack, then once per encounter, for 10-15 seconds, can turn into a whirlwind and make knockdown attacks".

    Any, or all of these would make several large parts of this game a lot more enjoyable.

  8. #28
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gHzSWB View Post
    Well said, I agree with much of your commentary. However, it is pretty obvious that since about week two of this game the DEVs have been cheating their butts off just to try to create the facsimile of a fair game or otherwise encounter based outcome game. DDO was terribly designed from day one with a total lack of understanding of how quickly and easily players would blow through the game. To make matters worse the same incompetent DEVs who made the game with too little content and with too little challenge for players made loot tables that game away the farm, and then some, early and often making the already thin and weak content thinner and weaker. So from about month 2 until now Turbine has been playing catch up, coding in cheats (beyond the designed default cheats), and otherwise developing new ways to occupy more player time or force continual re rolls - forgetting entirely about real game building. Such is DDO, complaining about it now is really pointless - DDO is a game of gear grind and character building - what happens during an actual encounter is really just superfluous anymore.



    Exactly what in DDOs history shows Turbine is capable of creating (i.e. faking) difficulty any way other than crazy HP and crazy saves or even more blatant cheats than that? DDO is not developed, it is fabricated - content isn't balanced it is rigged.
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  9. #29
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Mod 9 is getting closer, any possible word on any possible changes to elementals?

    (Oh and wraiths making an attack, then phasing out again after .5 seconds is also quite annoying).

  10. #30
    Community Member WeaselKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    Similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin.
    Viruses have always been unaffected by penicillin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milamber69 View Post
    Please forgive my personal attack, I was high on Platypus Venom at the time.

  11. #31
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baddax View Post
    The reaver is the place where they are the most nuissance and not only because of the shear numbers. Others Air Eles. are Easily banished,charmed,fingered etc etc., However these New and improved Reaver eles. Seem to have developed quite a resistance to standard practice, similar to the way viruses become immune to penacillin.
    It's true they were easier in reaver before, but they're actually not that difficult now either when you think about.

    1.) players just get a charge
    2.) ranging them with wops just rips them up.
    3.) all melee can wop or wound them.
    4.) caster can FOD them easily when 1 and 3 or 2 are being used since the save is fort.

    the cr increase to eles in reaver made it a raid where all group members can actually take some part in now - not class dependent.

    I do agree however that the air elemental knock down is ridiculas... when they first came out they did not have this effect as often, my melee would fight them and while occassionally thrown away, did not get knocked down consistantly. A month or so after they introduced them they changed them to do such. Maybe we should be able to hire the reaver to bring to other quests so he can charge us up?

    Last edited by Emili; 02-05-2009 at 11:47 AM.
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  12. #32
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    Grab a wounder or a puncturing weapon, couple of melee together make short work of any air ele.

    And reaver is still an easy quest, have not failed in a pug setting in a very long time.

  13. #33
    Founder Alavatar's Avatar
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    Do people not see that the OP is not referring to the Reaver? It is referring to Air Elementals in general vs. melee.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbryan2 View Post
    It's stupid... using a crossbow is stupid. They shouldn't be impervious to melee.
    Many years ago I programmed a video game where melee characters could get a magic buff to attack at medium range. It worked fine as an anti-kiting feature, although that was an action game.

    Then a few years ago, D&D added the "Blood Wind" spell, which does exactly that... you wave your sword around, and cuts appear on enemies within throwing range. Attack and damage are all computed with strength bonus like melee. It's a level 1 spell for both cleric and wizard, and since it's a very short duration buff, it would have a really funny effect if added to DDO: there would be a significant new bonus to splashing one level of spellcaster on a fighter or rogue.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Any, or all of these would make several large parts of this game a lot more enjoyable.
    The other thing that needs to change is to vary the DC, so that not every single air elemental has the same DC 20 knockdown. Only the biggest and elitest elementals should have that much strength.

  16. #36
    Community Member Bogenbroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riggs View Post
    Air elementals cheat, and cheat hard, and it makes a LOT of people very angry each and every time they are encountered. And there is no game design reason they HAVE to be that way, as Genies are also air creatures, also have whirlwind form, but only use it sometimes. So the mechanics for the 'as they are in the pnp rules' way to handle them already is in the game...it is just not being used. I for one would like to know why.
    Welcome to the mirror image of what it is like to be a caster in half of the high end content. Red or Purple named? Can't do squat. High end giants? Can waste half your spell points performing some crowd control on *some* of them as they are immune to half your spells.

    So there are monsters that melees find nearly impossible and monsters caster find nearly impossible. Are they Borked? Sure. Is it a game breaking? No. It is just a balance point between melees and casters.
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  17. #37
    Community Member bobbryan2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogenbroom View Post
    Welcome to the mirror image of what it is like to be a caster in half of the high end content. Red or Purple named? Can't do squat. High end giants? Can waste half your spell points performing some crowd control on *some* of them as they are immune to half your spells.

    So there are monsters that melees find nearly impossible and monsters caster find nearly impossible. Are they Borked? Sure. Is it a game breaking? No. It is just a balance point between melees and casters.
    If your caster can't find anything to do... you're playing him wrong.

  18. #38
    Founder Riggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boldarblood View Post
    Grab a wounder or a puncturing weapon, couple of melee together make short work of any air ele.

    And reaver is still an easy quest, have not failed in a pug setting in a very long time.
    How exactly do a couple of melee make short work of an air elemental when you cant swing from your back?

    If DDO allowed attacks from a prone position like pnp, then the knockdown would not be so pernicious, even if the dc is way too high, and reflex is not used like it should be.

    However the high dc, no attacks from prone, and str/dex check vs a skill or reflex save means no one can stand for more than 1-2 seconds vs one.

  19. #39
    Community Member Treerat's Avatar
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    Rogue is a full thief-acrobat, giving a 100% passive immunity to knockdowns. She also has a 36 base tumbling ability, Many-shot, Imp Critical: Range, 32 starting dex, a paralyzing of puncturing (as well as standard +5 wounding). One would assume air elementals would be easy for her to take down right? Keep dreaming. She may not get knocked down, but it is impossible to get a hit in (much less actually do meaningful damage) when elementals are throwing her around so much.

    Its no fun for my wizard who has every FoD-boosting trick possible right now. Not only do elementals make the save way too much, they also close to damn fast. Unless the first cast is a kill, you don't get time for a second because now you're on the ground being thrown around with your only prayer that they throw you clear and focus on someone else.

    A high-save and high-AC paladin tank? Forget it. Might as well just disconnect and come back in 10 minutes when either the elementals are dead or the group is.

    Simple fix: make elemental actually have to hit the player (and none of this "give the mob +50 to hit just because we had a bad day") and put it on a rational timer not this "spammed every 2 seconds" **** we get fed. Simple, effective, and not at all hard to code. Of course it won't go in because Turbine sold out to the EQ/ WoW "cater to the 10% that agree with our "vision" and screw everyone else" model. Who cares if it results in setting yourself up to lose a big chunk of the players to a competitor. All that matters is next quarters profits and the ego of the developers being sated; not like anyone cares that the game may die out in 4 years instead of going on a healthy 6+ to make more overall profits.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Thailand_Dan's Avatar
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    Ok, have a feeling this post is going to be unpopular, but here goes. Playing mostly arcanes, I think the OP is saying it is unfair that air eles are ruining the game for melee builds. Not quite understanding that. Throughout DDO there are things that require a melee character...ie, a party full of casters cannot do it alone (STR levers, red name bosses immune to everything a caster can throw at them, Mobs hitting so hard only 400+ hp toons stay up for more than 10 seconds, etc.)

    So there is one monster in the game that you have to sit on the sidelines for, and make sure you bring a caster with you. The Shroud, probably the most run quest in the game is limited to 2 (sometimes only 1) caster. And even there we have few jobs: buff the party, hit the crystal, FOD/PK the gnolls, and use debuff spells on Harry. We are casters! We nuke, we burn/freeze/corode/shock. That is what we were made to do. And yet, they are becoming more and more obsolete....changed into bard cheerleaders. (No offense to Bards, just saying the lore says Bard's are there to inspire

    Try running Reaver with 3 or 4 casters. It is pretty easy, even on elite. Before you needed one death specked sorc, and you were cool.

    I think the point of DDO is to encourage a variety of members in a party. Look at how many raged up Barbs run through traps, because hey, "a silly trap aint gonna kill me when I have 2 million hp". And even if it does, the friendly neighborhood cleric can raise me. So there is one monster in the game a plain vanila melee toon cannot kill. Fine. You know how many mobs a caster can't kill alone? A bunch.

    In summary, I think people should quit asking the devs to remove or "fix" things in the game, just because they can't zerg through it and actually require a varied group to get past it.


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