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  1. #81
    Community Member grimlock30's Avatar
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    Default on scrolls...

    just a note that heal scrolls will be affected by your wand/scroll mastery in your enhancement line. ie more hp per heal scroll. worth a point or two if your helping out clericing.
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  2. #82

    Default wand/scroll mastery

    Quote Originally Posted by grimlock30 View Post
    just a note that heal scrolls will be affected by your wand/scroll mastery in your enhancement line. ie more hp per heal scroll. worth a point or two if your helping out clericing.
    Great point! Oh yeah, I've had my eyes on it. So far, I'm level 10, so I've had no need to go more than wand/scroll mastery 1. However, I've been thinking of swapping something for more wand/scroll mastery. So far I'm standing pat, but I can see a very valid argument for swapping something out for cheaper wand/scroll use. My viewpoint, is you can't get EVERYTHING, so I will play wait/see on this one. I wont mess with her end game haggle and don't really want to negatively effect her buffing either. And, there's always levels 17-20 coming soon!! Either way, I can definitely see working wand/scroll mastery in somewhere...


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  3. #83

    Post How Bard Buffs Work

    Inspire Competence: stacks with everything, including items, morale bonuses, and luck bonuses.

    Rage: is a Morale bonus, but it increases your Strength and Constitution. Since it has a different effect, it works side by side with any of the other songs/spells.

    Focusing Chant: the 1st level bard spell provides a +1 Circumstance bonus to attacks and skills. To my knowledge, no other item, spell, or effect gives a circumstance bonus, so it should stack with everything. However, it is self only.


    Inspire Courage, Heroism, Good Hope, & Greater Heroism: They are all Morale bonuses, none of them stack. However, they can overlap to give you better bonuses than they would individually. For example, a level 4 bard (No enhancements) can cast Heroism for +2 to attack, skills, and saves. If he also sings Inspire Courage, it becomes +2 attack, +1 damage, +2 saves, +2 skills. The attack bonus doesn't stack, but Inspire Courage adds damage.

    At level 7, you'll gain access to Good Hope, which provides +2 to attack, damage, skills, and saves to the entire party. At this point, there's no point in having Heroism anymore, since it is either 15sp to cast Heroism on one person or 20sp to cast Good Hope on the whole party. At this point, the best your Inspire Courage song could be is +2 attack and +3 damage with all the enhancements. While slightly better, the difference is negligible. However, at 8th level, Inspire Courage gets its base bumped up to +2/+2, and with enhancements, you can now reach +4/+4, which is better than Good Hope. However, if you both cast Good Hope and sing, you now have +4 attack, +4 damage, +2 skills, and +2 saves. Again, you'll get the most benefit by using both.

    Once you gain access to Greater Heroism (+4 to attack, skills, and saves), the same idea is still true. Since it doesn't add damage, your bard songs will still give you added benefit. At level 14, Inspire Courage will increase in power again to +3/+3 base, and enhancements will increase as well. With all the enhancements, Inspire Courage will give you +6/+6 attack and damage.

    Here's what any bard can buff someone with (maxed out enhancements):

    Inspire Courage: +6 attack, +6 damage
    Inspire Greatness: +2 attack, +1 Fort saves, +20 HP
    Inspire Heroics: +4 Dodge AC, +4 Saves (Single Target Only)
    Inspire Competence: +2 Skill checks (Single Target Only)
    Greater Heroism: +4 skill checks, Fear Immunity, +16 HP (Single Target Only)
    Haste: +1 attack, +1 AC, +1 Reflex


    Combined, you'll get this:

    +9 attack (Warchanter can be +10 attack)
    +6 damage (Warchanter can be +8 damage)
    +4 Will save
    +5 Fort save
    +5 Reflex save
    +36 HP
    +6 Skill checks
    +4 Dodge AC
    Fear Immunity


    This post is credited to Freemen, for his fantastic posts relating to bard building. Included this because of the importance for bards to understand exactly what all these insanely similar buffs actually do, and how they work, and don't work, together.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 01-27-2009 at 01:27 PM.


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  4. #84
    Community Member Tharlak's Avatar
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    Default

    GuitarGod, I must say that this is one of the best threads to read about Bards. Anyone playing or planning to play a Bard should read this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
    Hi welcome!
    (I wonder if I'll get banned for this?)

  5. #85

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tharlak View Post
    GuitarGod, I must say that this is one of the best threads to read about Bards. Anyone playing or planning to play a Bard should read this.
    Thank you very much! I will continue to work this thread....


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  6. #86

    Default Green steel option #1

    Some have asked me to show the Greensteel items I either will be using or recommend.

    Four great Greensteel options for bards.

    My 2 favorites?

    The +9 CHARISMA Weapon, True Resurrection


    The +3 HAGGLE exceptional bonus Item, 250 Mana


    Here's a few more kick arse options, recommended to those who arent going for MAX haggle, and would like to strengthen some spellslinger bard weaknesses...



    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 01-28-2009 at 05:29 AM.


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  7. #87

    Default Not EVERY bard has her OWN song..... ;)

    What bard doesn't sing... so, on my birthday... thought I'd have a lil fun... forget about the stats for a minute.. and just do what bards do. Hence, I reveal the reason I called my haggle bard Mississippee Queen... so send your kids to their rooms, as I plug my Leslie West Signature Dean guitar into my Budda amp... & set the volume to 11...

    "Mississippee Queen, If you know what I mean
    Mississippee Queen, She taught me everything

    Way down around House J, Around Eberron way
    Lived a charismatic lady, named the Mississippee Queen
    You know she had only fine tastes
    She moved better on haste

    While the rest of them toons were'a gettin' their kicks,
    Boy I beg your pardon, I was getting mine

    Mississippee Queen, If you know what I mean
    Mississippee Queen, She taught me everything

    This lady she asked me, If I would be her man
    You know that I told her, I'd do what I can
    To keep her looking pretty
    Buy her bracers that shine

    While the rest of them dudes were losin their bread
    Boy I beg your pardon, I was makin' mine"
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 01-29-2009 at 01:28 AM.


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  8. #88

    Default Spell Pen For The Win!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Our inspiring friends, the Bards, are today's feature. Their first capstone does a little bit of everything, just like they do:

    Bard Musical Prodigy
    Prereq: Level 20 Bard
    Cost: 2 AP
    Benefit: You gain +2 Charisma, two additional uses of Bardic Music, as well as +2 to Spell Penetration checks and the DC's of your Enchantment spells. Your beneficial songs last 20% longer.

    Edit: Insert standard disclaimer here, that I keep forgetting to write during my initial drafts. Subject to change during testing, may be nothing like this once it goes live, etc.
    Today Eladrin confirmed what I expected all along.... that spell pen was going to be an essential ability to the future gameplay of DDO. This is a HUGE capstone for Spellslinger bards. It put us ONE (instead of three) points of DC behind a Wizard. More mana, more haggle, more spell pen, longer songs. No longer will you hear that a Warchanter is the "only bard to play." Bard Spell Pen did need a little help, and it just got it in a BIG way.

    Turbine is truly giving PURE CLASS builds a reward for staying pure. And that's the way it should be. "Pure" will not be a dirty word any longer. I have a few mixed classes. But my pure Wizard (crowd control) and pure Rogue (trapsmith) were definitely better than any mixed class I ever saw at doing what they do. Same with my pure fighter.

    If you are NOT a melee bard, and you splash another class, you will simply not be as effective as a pure class bard. And for a pure Spell Slinger Bard circa MOD 9, thats very, very good news.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 01-30-2009 at 11:19 PM.


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  9. #89

    Default Level 13

    Well, I just turned level 13. 58 haggle self buffed with a +13 haggle item and ONLY bard spells. That doesnt count pots or any other auras or items.

    Spell Penetration has been key. I still hit my spells. Time now to start playing in the Vale!

    UPDATED: ran slayers in the vale and did Ritual & Rainbow and spells were all sticking. Dancing ball was absolutely brutal... hit almost everything that tried walking through...
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 02-14-2009 at 05:10 AM.


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  10. #90

    Talking Level 15

    Well I finally leveled to 15. I also finally got my 15 haggle item. 64 haggle partially self buffed. Thats only greater hero. focusing chant. Human versatility 5. Voice of the Master. nothing else.

    Tomorrow I may make my green steel goggles. I have all the ingredients. Still deciding what I'm going to put on them, but I am leaning towards +6 cha skills. Thats 6 MORE to haggle. Thats 70 haggle!! And thats with only a 32 CHA. 3x air goggles. 3 haste clickies, and a 2% chance to trip or get hasted when hit!

    Heres the green steel goggles:
    http://ddocrafting.com/crafting_imag...EA-EEA-EEA.jpg


    By the by, was granted Inspire Heroics. This is what everyone calls "The AC song". +4 morale bonus to saves AND a +4 dodge bonus to AC. Rawks!!
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 02-22-2009 at 05:28 PM.


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  11. #91

    Default ...

    Hmm or I can make this:

    http://ddocrafting.com/crafting_imag...EEP-EE(AP).jpg

    Wizardry VI, +6 CHA skills, +150 MORE spell points, Lightening storm guard (600pt lightening strike chance when hit).... (BUT its dual shard)
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 02-22-2009 at 04:40 AM.


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  12. #92
    Community Member
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    Default

    This thread is made of gold. Kudos to all who participated in the discussion.

    I was thinking about rolling a haggle/singer bard myself and had some questions. Thanks to this thread, I have them all answered.

  13. #93

    Default

    Finally made 16.

    Even Obama can't hang when Mississippee gives her State of the Union. It's time... 3-2-1 Lights, Camera, Action!

    Haggle: 72. (partially buffed with just Greater Heroism, Focus chant, Human Versatility IV)
    UMD: 47. (enough to use any scroll in the game. RARELY fail.)
    Spell Pen: 25. ---> 16(caster level) + 2(enhancements) + 4(feats) + 3(Greater SP item)

    Head of Good Fortune and Green Steel Goggles (+6 CHA skills) are now included in calculation of haggle. I have not made my +9 CHA weapon yet.

    Crowd control works and works extremely well. Almost all of my spells hit their mark. Im very happy with it. My crowd control wizzy is a bit more precise to be honest, but I tell you, the spellsinger is very very accurate and can change the outcome of a quest without barely being noticed! A tip: when you need to stop the show, irresistable dance is simply BADDD-ARSED!

    Also have found a way to work in Wand and Scroll Mastery III. Will post all the new enhancements changes after a lil trial & error, when I'm completely satisfied I've made the right decisions.


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  14. #94
    Community Member Tharlak's Avatar
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    Default

    Wow, what a great ride.

    Really good to hear about your progress. My spellsinger is still "only" 11th, did not follow mississippi' exact path but can respec and be there. Looking forward to see the Wand III enhancements and what you had to give up. Also nice to see that the gear is minimal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
    Hi welcome!
    (I wonder if I'll get banned for this?)

  15. #95

    Default

    I have tweaked a few things since inception.

    Feats:
    To keep in line with the original intent of the build, and to tweak its effectiveness in the lower levels, Ive decided to make some changes. Nothing drastic. I have decided to do away with mental toughness. Its meaningless in this build. I have almost 1200 spell points at 16 and thats with just a Wizardry VI item (on my green steel goggles). Spell focus:enchantment has replaced mental toughness in the level 1 slot. Spell penetration has been moved to level 3. As always, save the haggle feats for last.

    level 1: empower healing, spell focus: enchantment
    level 3: spell pen
    level 6: extend
    level 9: greater spell pen
    level 12: haggle
    level 15: negotiator

    Enhancements:
    This took much trial and error. I follow the same thought process I did with feats, haggle is the last thing I build. Spellsinger reqs are first. Heres my current end game:

    Bard Inspire Damage II
    Bard Song Magic II
    Bard Energy of Music II
    Bard Lyric of Incredible Song
    Bard Haggle IV
    Bard CHA III
    Bard Improved Spell Penetration II
    Human Adaptability I: CHA
    Human Versatility IV
    Concentration II (need to take it for spellsinger specialty)
    Wand and Scroll Mastery III

    By not doing the "popular thing" and maxing out Song Magic and Energy Of Music, you can open up action points for Inspire Damage and Wand and Scroll Mastery, which in my opinion are much more important for this build.. Ive also spent wisely. Ive avoided the costly Imp Spell Pen III (6 ap). And Inspire Damage III. Would I LIKE them? Sure, but they're just not necessary. That allows me to max out what IS necessary such as Human Versatility IV, CHA III, and the always materialistic Haggle IV.

    At the end of the day, Mississippee has max haggle, while still being able to do a ton of healing/curing/remove and buffs. The high UMD allows her to raise dead/resurrect at will, teleport wherever she wants with cheapo teleport scrolls, and even play arcane spell caster for kicks (can cast most arcane scrolls at 100-200%). The spellsong trance still surprises a lot of casters. Casters LOVE the 10% discount on spell points! Thats hundreds of extra spell points for some casters (read Sorcs!)
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 03-07-2009 at 01:49 PM.


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  16. #96
    Community Member Comfortably's Avatar
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    I am rolling up a bard similar to yours, how did you hit a 47UMD?...like is that with the skill boost?

    On my bard I am going to go somthing like this:

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 2.96
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Creadence Clearwater Revival
    Level 16 True Neutral Human Female
    (16 Bard) 
    Hit Points: 164
    Spell Points: 620 
    BAB: 12\12\17\22
    Fortitude: 8
    Reflex: 9
    Will: 9
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
    (32 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 16)           (Level 16)
    Strength             24                 24                   24
    Dexterity             8                  8                    8
    Constitution         14                 24                   24
    Intelligence         10                 12                   12
    Wisdom                8                  8                    8
    Charisma             18                 39                   39
    
    Tomes Used
    +1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
    +2 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
    +2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
    
                      Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 16)          (Level 16)
    Balance               3                 18                   18
    Bluff                 4                  7                    7
    Concentration         7                 22                   22
    Diplomacy             4                 21                   23
    Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Haggle                8                 26                   32
    Heal                 -1                 -1                   -1
    Hide                 -1                 -1                   -1
    Intimidate            4                  7                    7
    Jump                  7                 22                   22
    Listen               -1                 -1                   -1
    Move Silently        -1                 -1                   -1
    Open Lock            n/a               n/a                   n/a
    Perform               8                 26                   27
    Repair                1                  1                    1
    Search                1                  1                    1
    Spot                 -1                 -1                   -1
    Swim                  4                  4                    4
    Tumble                2                 18                   18
    Use Magic Device      8                 26                   26
    
    Level 1 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Concentration (+4)
    Skill: Haggle (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Perform (+4)
    Skill: Swim (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+3)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Human Bonus) Negotiator
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility I
    Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
    Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I
    
    
    Level 2 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (1): Focusing Chant
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
    
    
    Level 3 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
    Spell (1): Hypnotism
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
    
    
    Level 4 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: CHA
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Blur
    Spell (2): Heroism
    Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
    Enhancement: Human Versatility II
    Enhancement: Bard Perform I
    
    
    Level 5 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (1): Otto's Resistable Dance
    Spell (2): Rage
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Charisma I
    
    
    Level 6 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
    Enhancement: Warchanter I
    
    
    Level 7 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
    Spell (3): Haste
    Spell (3): Good Hope
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
    Enhancement: Bard Spell Penetration I
    
    
    Level 8 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: CHA
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
    
    
    Level 9 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
    
    
    Level 10 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (3): Displacement
    Spell (4): Dimension Door
    Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III
    Enhancement: Human Versatility III
    
    
    Level 11 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (4): Neutralize Poison
    
    
    Level 12 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: CHA
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
    Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
    Enhancement: Bard Haggle I
    
    
    Level 13 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (4): Break Enchantment
    Spell (5): Greater Heroism
    Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
    Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution II
    
    
    Level 14 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (5): Mind Fog
    Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song IV
    
    
    Level 15 (Bard)
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Haggle
    Enhancement: Bard Charisma II
    
    
    Level 16 (Bard)
    Ability Raise: CHA
    Skill: Balance (+1)
    Skill: Concentration (+1)
    Skill: Diplomacy (+1)
    Skill: Haggle (+1)
    Skill: Jump (+1)
    Skill: Perform (+1)
    Skill: Tumble (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Spell (6): Otto's Irresistable Dance
    Spell (6): Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
    Note: I didnt sped lots of time screwing around with the planer so like i said its close, not exact.
    Last edited by Comfortably; 03-07-2009 at 03:57 PM.
    Jeets said he wouldn't tell Turbine. ;(

  17. #97
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superdude4000iv View Post
    I am rolling up a bard similar to yours, how did you hit a 47UMD?
    Tanka, my Fighter hybrid, hits 45 self-buffed. It's a lot easier on a Bard, and you don't even have to take SF:UMD to do it.
    Person Æ, Sarlona
    Tanka Yomero (Human Hybrid) .:. Darani Yomero (Drow Sorcerer) .:. Yomero (WF Paladonk)

  18. #98
    Community Member Comfortably's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanka View Post
    Tanka, my Fighter hybrid, hits 45 self-buffed. It's a lot easier on a Bard, and you don't even have to take SF:UMD to do it.
    Right on...


    19 Ranks
    14 cha mod
    5 item(Titan gloves)
    6 cha item from shroud
    4 GH
    2 (Head of GF)
    =50 or even that necklace outa Delaras for a 48UMD.
    Last edited by Comfortably; 03-07-2009 at 10:16 PM.
    Jeets said he wouldn't tell Turbine. ;(

  19. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by superdude4000iv View Post
    I am rolling up a bard similar to yours, how did you hit a 47UMD?...like is that with the skill boost?

    On my bard I am going to go something like this:

    .........

    Note: I didnt sped lots of time screwing around with the planer so like i said its close, not exact.
    Yeah. Nobody loves FIGHTER FEATS more than I do, but improved critical is really the only real imperative melee feat in my opinion... all the other feats simply support it... at least that's how I see it in MY mind. Your toon has imp crit AND you took the supporting feats as well so you should connect. You can heal, buff, buy stuff on sale, and smack the **** outa stuff. Who can fault ya for that!? Nice build.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 03-10-2009 at 08:08 AM.


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  20. #100
    Community Member WorldTraveler's Avatar
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    I have strongly considered making a hagglebard. A few things have discouraged me. One, I never played the class before. Two,
    I have seen how most consider them primarily buffers and backseat characters with limited spell love weakening their potential
    to at least actively contribute something to parties. I admit though that reading through your thread, I am beginning to
    believe they can indeed do strong and competent CC at least. Thirdly, they cannot use paladin or monk splashes to gain any
    help that you kinda need anymore to achieve a meaningful AC and I dislike having ineffective or absolutely useless AC. And
    last I in no way have any desire to play a cleric and never have as I don't think I can effectively split attention to do it
    well, yet many expect bards to act like they know how to be a cleric. This last leaned me towards the idea of a warchanter
    version that places no focus on healing at all, but I wondered what can be switched up and tweaked to keep a top notch CC and
    spell pen, the only thing that it looks like to my inexperienced eyes saves you from being a buffbot piker that hides in a
    corner. In other words, I want to at least know I can contribute actively to something, like CC, instead of just buffs.

    I see that your build does the CC thing well and from your updates has only benefitted from focusing on spell pen, so I was
    going to just try and study what a warchanter needs, but then I remembered this build in Sigtrent's request a build thread:
    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...28#post1503028
    Seeing all the active and still positive discussion going on, drawing out so many people who actually do know what they're
    doing <cough cough not me>, I wondered if you might give some of your thoughts on comparison of these two and what is gained,
    what is lost going multiclass. In the end, I would try and take from this enough to hopefully plan out a competent warchanter
    version that is good at haggle, and as the request in Sig's thread was for, one which would be easy to level. Very nice thread
    by the way. Thanks.

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