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  1. #21
    Uber Completionist Lithic's Avatar
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    maxing out damage is very important, and I would suggest maxing out the lingering songs as well. The tohits are twice as expensive, and frankly if the +2 base and +2 from inspire competance aren't enough for your melees to hit 100% of the time, then you're enhancement selection is not your biggest problem...
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lithic View Post
    maxing out damage is very important, and I would suggest maxing out the lingering songs as well.
    I totally agree about the tohits, which is why I didnt spend any points on them. What would YOU drop in order to pay for the damage and lingering enhancements? I like the healing & haggling, so I see its as a tight squeeze.


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  3. #23
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    What would YOU drop in order to pay for the damage and lingering enhancements?.
    spell pen. bard spells are mostly useless in endgame anyway.

  4. #24
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear View Post
    spell pen. bard spells are mostly useless in endgame anyway.
    Hilarious.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear View Post
    spell pen. bard spells are mostly useless in endgame anyway.
    Now wait a second. I play a crowd control wizzy, Frobozz, and I can tell you for a FACT that his spells hit, where others that have neglected spell pen cant hit. And I'm talking about the very same spells my bard can cast...


    So not to say you are wrong, but please elaborate.. because spell pen in my opinion is paramount in end game content.


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  6. #26
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Now wait a second. I play a crowd control wizzy, Frobozz, and I can tell you for a FACT that his spells hit, where others that have neglected spell pen cant hit. And I'm talking about the very same spells my bard can cast...


    So not to say you are wrong, but please elaborate.. because spell pen in my opinion is paramount in end game content.
    for which spells?

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear View Post
    for which spells?
    Im talking about all the will based spells. Heck, even hypnotize can be effective in the Vale... I just dont know how you can say you are a spell slinger if you dont insure that your spells are going to hit MOST EFFECTIVELY.


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  8. #28
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    Im talking about all the will based spells. Heck, even hypnotize can be effective in the Vale... I just dont know how you can say you are a spell slinger if you dont insure that your spells are going to hit MOST EFFECTIVELY.
    in the groups i run with all bard spells enchantments are worthless. faster to just let them kill them. your specific example of hypno is antithetical to bb.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear View Post
    in the groups i run with all bard spells enchantments are worthless. faster to just let them kill them. your specific example of hypno is antithetical to bb.
    ... ever think your enchantment spells are useless because you DON'T have spell pen!?

    In the groups I run with NO CLASS is useless. This bard is designed to set up the kill, and masterful crowd control is the "weapon" of this particular build. There are plenty of quests, even raids, that can benefit from hypnotize and dancing ball for example. A successful mind fog can really help your casters out. Remember, this isn't a front line superstar. This build sets up the melees and casters with buffs, and can also handicap many monsters to ensure a faster victory. Being able to back up the cleric with competent healing is another very useful responsibility of this bard.

    Now, your comment of hypnotise and blade barrier not being a good combo is just common sense. Being a master of crowd control, we need to know what spells stack well and which ones don't. Its just part of the learning curve of the trade.


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  10. #30
    Community Member Adaram64's Avatar
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    I am new. Is money so hard to come by in this game that it is worth considering leveling a character all the way to 16 to get reduced prices and have more money for your other characters?
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  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adaram64 View Post
    I am new. Is money so hard to come by in this game that it is worth considering leveling a character all the way to 16 to get reduced prices and have more money for your other characters?
    Well, I dont think your casual player would find benefit in leveling a haggle bard. So I agree with your theory in part.

    However, if you are spending some decent time playing, and you happen to have a cleric or two (or more), building a haggle toon will save you a LOT of money. Of course, if you align yourself with a good guild, you may be able to find a haggle toon willing to hook you up! You are definitely in high demand in your guild if you have a high haggle.


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  12. #32
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    ... ever think your enchantment spells are useless because you DON'T have spell pen!?
    no, bc i built one with spell pen. the spells are not useless bc of sr, they are useless bc of blanket immunities/easier and faster methods to kill them.

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzly Bear View Post
    no, bc i built one with spell pen. the spells are not useless bc of sr, they are useless bc of blanket immunities/easier and faster methods to kill them.
    If a bards will based spells stick as good as a wizzy's will based spells, which they should, you are simply wrong, or did something wrong. Of course there are quests where crowd control isnt prudent. Everything in D & D is situational.


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  14. #34
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post
    If a bards will based spells stick as good as a wizzy's will based spells, which they should, you are simply wrong, or did something wrong. Of course there are quests where crowd control isnt prudent. Everything in D & D is situational.
    a wiz can beat a bard's dcs by 2, and they have better options against the blanket immunities

  15. #35
    Community Member Tuney's Avatar
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    Hmm... If I could log on onto my bard I could show off what she has. She doesn't have maxed CHA but does have quite a bit of work for her. She is also an Elf so doesn't have that human boost but is in the 60's. While in fights with AE attacks or spells going off, she focuses more into a Healing support role , she can when the need arises take up arms and attack... Heck there have been a few times where she has to intimdate and surpizingly does ok with only a 31.

    By late game about the only way to get spells to land if there aren't blanket immunity is Mind fog comboing and hoping that it lands so what ever else is in there works to do anything else... for me anyways.

    Her enchancments are mostly focused into Song and haggle , a little dabbling into healing power , crit and scroll usage with left over points.

  16. #36

    Default Versatility

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuney View Post
    By late game about the only way to get spells to land if there aren't blanket immunity is Mind fog comboing and hoping that it lands so what ever else is in there works to do anything else... for me anyways.
    Interesting, looks like bard spells need some lovin. However, the Mississippee Queen has responsibilities outside the combat arena. Her primary responsibility will be to make money. She definitely succeeds at that. Her primary focus in battle is to assist the cleric with healing. She carries the full assortment of wands to take care of almost everything. She can UMD most scrolls as well. She succeeds here with flying colors.

    How high can her UMD go? Well here's max possible.

    19: Ranks
    16: Cha (assuming the 42 CHA)
    6: Charisma Item
    5: Titan Raid Gloves (7 fingered gloves)
    2: Reaver Item
    4: Greater Heroism
    2: Spellsinger Song
    2: Inspire Competence from another Bard
    5: Human Boost (20 seconds)
    3: Alchemical skills
    3: Skill Focus: UMD (Enhancement) (only IF you swap out a feat for this feat)
    1: Focus Chant spell
    ----
    68: TOTAL UMD by LEVEL 16

    If I take off 2 UMD for not having 42 CHA, ignore the 5 UMD from the gloves, and dont count the 3 UMD from Skill Focus: UMD, I would have a very respectable 58 umd buffed.

    Thats PLENTY UMD enough to use:

    Arcane Spells Scrolls

    Scroll of Banishment......................... 40
    Scroll of Flesh To Stone.................... 40
    Scroll of Greater Heroism................... 40
    Scroll of Mass Invisibility................... 44
    Scroll of Reconstruct........................ 40
    Scroll of Summon Monster VII............ 44
    Scroll of Symbol of Stunning.............. 44
    Scroll of Tenser's Transformation........ 40
    Scroll of Waves of Exhaustion............ 44

    Divine Spell Scrolls

    Scroll of Resurrection...................... 44
    Scroll of Cure Critical Wounds........... 32
    Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds........... 28
    Scroll of Divine Power...................... 32
    Scroll of Greater Restoration............. 44
    Scroll of Heal................................. 40
    Scroll of Heroes' Feast..................... 40
    Scroll of Mass Cure Light Wounds...... 36
    Scroll of Mass Cure Moderate Wounds 40
    Scroll of Mass Restoration................ 44
    Scroll of Mass Shield of Faith............ 44
    Scroll of Mass Spell Resistance......... 44
    Scroll of Neutralize Poison............... 32
    Scroll of Prayer............................. 28
    Scroll of Raise Dead....................... 36
    Scroll of Recitation........................ 32
    Scroll of Remove Disease................ 28
    Scroll of Restoration...................... 32
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 01-06-2009 at 12:58 PM.


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  17. #37
    Founder Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adaram64 View Post
    I am new. Is money so hard to come by in this game that it is worth considering leveling a character all the way to 16 to get reduced prices and have more money for your other characters?
    No, money is actually very easy to come by in this game. On a typical high-level quest(level 16+), I'll usually end up selling items for approximately 10k-20k platinum when I'm done. Something like the Shroud(8 chests plus the end reward) will give you much more than that. Add in the occasional item sold on the auction house, and you won't have to ever worry about running out of money after roughly 12th level. I use my bard to buy supplies, but I've never bothered maxing out his haggle beyond what it normally is. That way, I have a character I like that also happens to get really good deals.
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  18. #38
    Community Member Zenix_Leviticus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adaram64 View Post
    I am new. Is money so hard to come by in this game that it is worth considering leveling a character all the way to 16 to get reduced prices and have more money for your other characters?

    You are close to my philosophy on this... I do have my bard do the haggling for
    all of my characters loot runs. I just refuse to build a character and give them
    greensteel items and raid loot that is going to be mainly a personal shopper.

    To the OP's point though, even a personal shopper is a big benefit to most parties
    for the buffs and additional damage.

    If you take any bard build and put 19 ranks of haggle then slap a coin belt from
    threnal on them, they will have a 31 haggle. Add a greater heroism it moves to
    a 35. If you figure middle of the road charisma between a caster bard and
    war chanter, of a 26 that would be another +8 taking you to a 43 haggle.


    Now you didn't have to burn a feat for skill focus haggle, negotiator, or farm some
    raid for the items. Anyone, including the weekend player, can build a 43-50 haggle
    bard with run of the mill items. To go higher, you are going to have to invest some
    time in the character and farm some quests and specialize your bard.


    The one freedom of having a high haggle or extreme haggle character is this. I don't
    put points into haggle on any of my other characters. I mail anything over 16,000 gold
    to my bard and let him sell everything.

    I admire the focus of a person that can build a character to the pinacle of a skill or
    ability. I just would spend that much time building one myself.



    If it sounds as if I am running the OP's build down, I am NOT! I know full well what the
    benefits of an extreme haggle character are and use the technique myself. I ran
    one run through the Orchard and one shroud run last night and mailed all of the loot
    to my bard and made 43,000 plat. I would have probably made 50,000 had I been
    using the OP's build.


    My point was to shed some light on Adaram64's question of is worth the extra time.
    If you play 30-60 hours a week, yes it is. If you play less than 30, I would settle
    for a high haggle build that uses other skills as well.


    Some things I would also consider about max stat build.

    1.How many times do you get someone else's bard to buff your bard to go shopping?
    2.Is it better to use a house D potion (charisma) for shopping or in combat for spell dc?
    3.How long does it take to aquire a head of good fortune in todays reaver quest?
    4.Is there really going to be a monk with you when you shop?
    5.How long does it take to get a tier 3 weapon?


    My answers for me personally...

    1. My bard may have been buffed by another bard for shopping once or twice ever.
    If I am on my bard, everone else is playing a different class in my party.

    2. I don't carry the house D potions for either and could only see ussing them if I
    had 15 or more items to sell at once.

    3. I have done the reaver about 30 times and have never seen a head of good fortune
    drop yet. (my luck)

    4. Typically when I am shopping everyone else is running to where the quest is.

    5. I currently have 3 characters with tier 2 items and ZERO tier 3 items after about
    20-25 shroud runs.
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  19. #39
    Community Member Tuney's Avatar
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    There is also a hidden "Haggle boost" if you do the "Zone themed quest". Delara's for House J , Waterworks for Harbor , Blah blah. Sure most people would have them done but I just figured it might be worth noting.

  20. #40
    Community Member Adaram64's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenix Leviticus View Post
    You are close to my philosophy on this... I do have my bard do the haggling for
    all of my characters loot runs. I just refuse to build a character and give them
    greensteel items and raid loot that is going to be mainly a personal shopper.

    To the OP's point though, even a personal shopper is a big benefit to most parties
    for the buffs and additional damage.

    If you take any bard build and put 19 ranks of haggle then slap a coin belt from
    threnal on them, they will have a 31 haggle. Add a greater heroism it moves to
    a 35. If you figure middle of the road charisma between a caster bard and
    war chanter, of a 26 that would be another +8 taking you to a 43 haggle.


    Now you didn't have to burn a feat for skill focus haggle, negotiator, or farm some
    raid for the items. Anyone, including the weekend player, can build a 43-50 haggle
    bard with run of the mill items. To go higher, you are going to have to invest some
    time in the character and farm some quests and specialize your bard.


    The one freedom of having a high haggle or extreme haggle character is this. I don't
    put points into haggle on any of my other characters. I mail anything over 16,000 gold
    to my bard and let him sell everything.

    I admire the focus of a person that can build a character to the pinacle of a skill or
    ability. I just would spend that much time building one myself.



    If it sounds as if I am running the OP's build down, I am NOT! I know full well what the
    benefits of an extreme haggle character are and use the technique myself. I ran
    one run through the Orchard and one shroud run last night and mailed all of the loot
    to my bard and made 43,000 plat. I would have probably made 50,000 had I been
    using the OP's build.


    My point was to shed some light on Adaram64's question of is worth the extra time.
    If you play 30-60 hours a week, yes it is. If you play less than 30, I would settle
    for a high haggle build that uses other skills as well.


    Some things I would also consider about max stat build.

    1.How many times do you get someone else's bard to buff your bard to go shopping?
    2.Is it better to use a house D potion (charisma) for shopping or in combat for spell dc?
    3.How long does it take to aquire a head of good fortune in todays reaver quest?
    4.Is there really going to be a monk with you when you shop?
    5.How long does it take to get a tier 3 weapon?


    My answers for me personally...

    1. My bard may have been buffed by another bard for shopping once or twice ever.
    If I am on my bard, everone else is playing a different class in my party.

    2. I don't carry the house D potions for either and could only see ussing them if I
    had 15 or more items to sell at once.

    3. I have done the reaver about 30 times and have never seen a head of good fortune
    drop yet. (my luck)

    4. Typically when I am shopping everyone else is running to where the quest is.

    5. I currently have 3 characters with tier 2 items and ZERO tier 3 items after about
    20-25 shroud runs.
    Thanks for the very detailed answer -- being quite casual (like 2-3 hours per week) in play time, how long would it take to get a bard to lvl 16? Approximately is fine.
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