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  1. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riekan View Post
    Les,
    I have a question about your initial stat distribution. I understand the maxed Charisma and higher constitution, but why start with a 16 in strength? Are you meleeing with this toon? From the descriptions in the thread, I don't believe you are. So why start with such a high strength instead of evening out some of your other stats? Would it be a complete mistake to go 18 charisma, 18 constitution 8s in everything else?

    I'm thinking of starting a haggle bard/spellsinger to replace one of my rogues, and want to not gimp myself on the starting stats.
    I was waiting for someone to call me out for the benefit/reason of going with a 16 strength. Bards CAN make very effective tanks. Going with a 16 strength allows you to connect. Perfect for soloing with para/vorpal/banisher/disruption etc. No, you arent going to be near ANY top kill count, but having the ability to hit monsters can really come in handy. Alternatively you can also pump dex and range, and boost your AC a bit. However ranged was just not a path I wanted to walk down. On Mississippi strength means TWO THINGS:

    1. Never have to worry about being burdened! A burdened healer is a useless healer.

    2. To-hit. I can hit/kill when necessary.

    Because I have my healing, spell pen, and haggle covered, strength becomes a nice little bonus.
    Last edited by LeslieWest_GuitarGod; 05-09-2009 at 06:53 PM.


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  2. #122
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winsom View Post
    That is very exaggerated and untrue. I don't know where you get that figure, but haggle is not even close to that effective at selling. I write this notice because this is the second or third time Ive seen a similar comparison in this thread.
    As Strakeln pointed out, the math is the math. Now if you want to put forth that we are not tied to comparing a -2/0 vs 70+ haggle, that is is very easy to grab a +11 or so Haggle Item, to pop on a CHA item, to get a GH cast on you and a Head of Good fortune for another +2, which pushes you to around a net Haggle of 20 vs the haggle master at 70, then I have no problem with that. But unless you are doing that, the deltas in net income are still around a factor of 2.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    As Strakeln pointed out, the math is the math. Now if you want to put forth that we are not tied to comparing a -2/0 vs 70+ haggle, that is is very easy to grab a +11 or so Haggle Item, to pop on a CHA item, ...
    The listed math is showing around 15% extra sale value for every 10 points of haggle? I'll have to recheck what I was getting in game. I thought I was getting closer to 10%. But I don't doubt the math necessarily. I doubt the true value of the enterprise. Theory crafting is not the reality of gains.

    My CHA 8 characters can get around Haggle 20 with a Greater Hero, haggle item and CHA item. My wizard put 9 ranks into it as well, so 27. My level 12 monk/rogue can get 21 if I use skill boost, no greater heroism. My 13th ranger is Haggle 18 before buffs or boosts. These numbers could be a little higher if I cared to get +CHA skills items or +6 CHA cloaks or always had GH up. That is the reality as I see it. The super-haggle character would have to make my gains look tiny for me to think its worth the effort of a dedicated haggler.

    I think its a fair argument to say a character extremely specialized in haggle can sell for a over twice as much as someone that doesn't care buffing up his haggling. But that says more about the person that doesnt care to haggle than the true value of a haggle character. My non-haggle build characters can get over 20, so Im making an effort without being dedicated to it. I think Im a fair benchmark to compare against. I doubt you are selling things for twice as much as what my characters are getting for the same items. I an not discounting the value of haggle at all. I try to boost my haggle power. I just don't beleive there is some kind of night and day difference between the money a 16th haggle character is getting compared to mine.

    How a person spends his time collecting saleable items, where he sells them, how he uses the auction house is what defines how rich a character is going to be. Adding in plus 50 haggle points is very small potatoes unless combined with a very large influx of salable goods, and even then the auction house profits makes such haggling gains very small by comparison.

    I think what some people are saying is that they use a haggle character to buy 1000s of Heal scrolls and similar for their guild. That is certainly nice. Will get a lot more scrolls that way compared to what it would cost me.
    Last edited by winsom; 05-11-2009 at 02:42 AM.
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  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by winsom View Post
    How a person spends his time collecting saleable items, where he sells them, how he uses the auction house is what defines how rich a character is going to be.
    Some people guess what things are worth.... & some people tell people what to pay for an item. I prefer to be the latter, but I worship the former....


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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by winsom View Post
    The listed math is showing around 15% extra sale value for every 10 points of haggle? I'll have to recheck what I was getting in game. I thought I was getting closer to 10%.
    One point of haggle equals a 0.25% increase in sale price. So 10 points equals 2.5% increase in sale price. It's all in the link.

    Quote Originally Posted by winsom View Post
    My non-haggle build characters can get over 20, so Im making an effort without being dedicated to it. I think Im a fair benchmark to compare against. I doubt you are selling things for twice as much as what my characters are getting for the same items.
    And here we go again... just check out the link instead of making false statements!

    Haggle Score Vendor BV Sale % Broker BV Sale %
    20 haggle 15% 20%
    82 haggle 30.5% 35.5%

    So, using 20 haggle as a benchmark as you suggest, a hagglebot makes between 1.775x and 2.033x money selling things.

    Stop spreading falsehoods.

  6. #126
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    And then you factor in the price reductions you get when buying stuff at wholesale instead of retail the money goes even further.

    End of a vale loot run. Have 6 - 98K weapons for sale.

    Worst Case drop them off at the barkeep in Meridia with a low/no haggle toon. Selling them at 10% (vendor base) gives you a total of 58800 Gold

    Selling them with a 20 Haggle to the barkeep (15%) gives you 88200 gold

    Selling them with a 60 Haggle at a broker in House D (30%) gives you 176400 gold

    Now take that gold you just earned and lets turn that into HEAL scrolls for example.

    With a 0 Haggle those scrolls gonna cost you 130% of Retail (or 1500 * 1.30 = 1950 gold each)

    With a 20 Haggle it drops to 117% = 1755 each
    with a 60 Haggle it drops to 91% (1500*.91 = 1365 each)

    So stacks of 100 scrolls would cost 195000 or 175500 or 136500 gold

    Base seller/buyer can turn their loot from the Vale run into 30 Heal Scrolls
    20 Haggle slot can turn that same loot into 50 Heal Scrolls
    60 Haggle seller can turn that loot into 129 Heal Scrolls.

    One can hit a 60 Haggle with only a minimum of dedication, using no consumeables, and no GreenSteel or Armor. (Getting to the 80ish range requires many of the above.)
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    So stacks of 100 scrolls would cost 195000 or 175500 or 136500 gold
    Now, a good argument as to why haggle might not be worthwhile... if you're on the Khyber server, Qwijy sells heal scroll stacks for 130,000gp... that's somewhere around the equivalent of 65ish haggle sale price.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strakeln View Post
    Now, a good argument as to why haggle might not be worthwhile... if you're on the Khyber server, Qwijy sells heal scroll stacks for 130,000gp... that's somewhere around the equivalent of 65ish haggle sale price.
    LOL, now that a TRUE haggler right there


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  9. #129
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    Thanks for the explanations. I realized my post seemed more argumentative than I intended it to be. I still think apples should be compared to apples, not broker vs merchant. But Im done trying to make the point that x3 isn't a realistic comparison.

    Selling stuff for close to twice what I can get is great. Over time that will pay off as you having all the +2 tomes you want, while I might not
    People will be happy you can buy consumables cheaper for them.
    Last edited by winsom; 05-12-2009 at 04:29 AM.

  10. #130
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winsom View Post
    Thanks for the explanations. I realized my post seemed more argumentative than I intended it to be. I still think apples should be compared to apples, not broker vs merchant. But Im done trying to make the point that x3 isn't a realistic comparison.

    Selling stuff for close to twice what I can get is great. Over time that will pay off as you having all the +2 tomes you want, while I might not
    People will be happy you can buy consumables cheaper for them.
    Understood. Its just some of us who have worked the system tend to get defensive since we also hear many players lament about how expensive supplies are and how they are always broke. Those same players tend to also be the ones selling to Barkeeps, ignore haggle items (or even a simple skill boost clickie) and fail to get even a reasonable fraction of the possible return they could get.

    Now time spent is also worth something to players, and I admit that getting all the sellables to the hagglebot takes some time. When I had one account, I would only spend the time to mail expensive stuff (50K and up type things). (Partly since the mail fees lop off the benefit of 8 points of haggle (2% of value)). Spending time mailing to sell off stuff like +4 arrows of slaying was not worth it, even if I would have gotten more gold. So if someone wants to use the explanation that they do not want to "waste" their game time working the economy, that is also understood.

    Some like Qwijy have worked that angle enough to buy lower, sell higher and still beat the average cost to most. Net that vig and use the proceeds to fund deep pockets gaming. (Works in a world where the supplier has infinite stock. Would be interesting to see how something would work where the number of supplies was in some way fixed at the shops at the start of the day/time period. While this would be interesting in a study of supply and demand economics theory, it might suck as a game mechanic. in DDO).
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenako View Post
    Would be interesting to see how something would work where the number of supplies was in some way fixed at the shops at the start of the day/time period. While this would be interesting in a study of supply and demand economics theory, it might suck as a game mechanic. in DDO).
    God, I hope they never go down that route. It wouldl make a few (myself included) very very very rich and would punish the rest.

    Would be interesting, for sure.

    I've said it before, QwijyMart would make for a fantastic study in economics. It's almost comical how many economics theories ring true with a virtual store selling virtual goods for a virtual profit.

  12. #132
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strakeln View Post
    I've said it before, QwijyMart would make for a fantastic study in economics. It's almost comical how many economics theories ring true with a virtual store selling virtual goods for a virtual profit.
    Well combine EBAY discount sellers, Online/Retail shops buyers who need stock and a middle man working both ends and you get the same thing with reals goods and a real return.

    Works in the game. Works in real life. You get rewarded for the time spent doing the matching of supply and demand.
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  13. #133

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    Thank you boys for the extra explanations over and beyond the math I've laid out. Very few people have seen the true benefits of a haggle bard. And that my dear friends, is what keeps "us" in business.

    However, recently, I have gotten quite a few requests to build them a toon like this. Whats nice about this toon is the ease factor in building and playing her. Anyone can build this toon. However, it is very easy to gimp a character like this, especially in the crowd control department. Mississippi is a terribly effective crowd control artist, and I still have a blast playing this toon.

    So, if the idea of making a beholder dance or saving a clerics rear-end or buffing a melee team to no end sounds exciting to you, then this is a great toon to have in your arsenal. Truth be told, most wont, but the few who do LOVE what they do.


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  14. #134
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    In EVE On-line a lot of players spend great amounts of time tracking the price of auction house items and comparing that price to how much it costs them to acquire those times. In EVE there are essentially several (or lots) of different auction houses that do not share goods. You can buy from one of them and then fly your cargo ship to another location to sell for profit or attempt to control the overall perceived market price to your advantage.

    Through a buying low and selling high strategy some players can make in-game money off the market even when they don't otherwise craft or loot the items themselves. I wonder how many people attempt this type of game play in DDO ?

    Interestingly enough, any EVE player that earns a lot of in-game currency can trade in that virual money for subscription play time. You can purchase virtual subscription game cards in EVE that can be traded for play time. These too are traded in the market place. A Very successful player might accumulate extra play time and then to sell to other players at a slightly discounted rate compared to the official price. I don't know if this last part actually happens, but it might be possible.


    If a high haggle DDO player knows they can sell an item for a certain percentage of its listed market value then they can look for profitable buys from the auction house. Buy up the really low-ball postings and use your supremely high haggle to sell to a broker for a little profit. How often do you do that and is that worthwhile to you?

    I imagine that would take a lot of auction house browsing time, but it might be fun for some players.
    Last edited by winsom; 05-13-2009 at 08:03 AM.
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  15. #135
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    One can earn some decent bucks working the AH bidding on under priced items (compared to what you could sell them for) and then selling them to a vendor. I do that all the time, when ever I am checking out the AH for items I might be looking for.

    However, it is not more profitable than just questing. Mainly due to the 20 bid slot limit and lack of underpriced buyouts on most items. (There is also a mailslot limit that can kick in since your combined mail plus bids and posts cannot exceed that number. Once you hit that, you need to empty the mail before you can bid or post further.)

    Example. I can sell a 98K weapon for around 29K normally (Normal self buffs and no consumables). It is not uncommon to be able to drop a 25K winning bid on it and make 4K on the transaction. (Now the person selling that 98K weapon possible still got more gold from selling on the AH, even after fees if they are in the low haggle zone and would have gotten 15K or less since even after fees they still are getting around 17K. They make more, had the potential to make a lot more if a bidding war developed. I make some of the margin as well. Silly infinite deep pocket brokers in House D eat the vendor trash endlessly and feed the economy.) One could net 50K - 100K a day pretty easy without ever leaving the city. This is just working with vendors. If you see very undervalued items, like someone selling a Bloodstone for 1 million gold and you know it often sells for manytimes that amount, you can snag and relist.

    However, just spending a hour questing or loot running the vale or similar locations will net you more NET gold per hour in general. The nice thing about AH mucking is that you can really stack that on top of doing other REAL LIFE things, like watching a ballgame, doing stuff around the house, filling in 10 minutes between quests. Notice how some players in Meridia move off to the AH while waiting for the Shroud to fill up instead of bouncing around the entrance. It is easy to multitask chatting and scoping out the AH at the same time.

    Can you get "rich" doing it. Very hard. Can you make enough to offset a lot of consumables costs, most definitely.
    Last edited by Zenako; 05-13-2009 at 09:52 AM.
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  16. #136
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    I have enjoyed reading this thread for awhile now and I have a question for the OP: Do you think a warchanter would offer more to a party than a spell singer?
    Jeets said he wouldn't tell Turbine. ;(

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comfortably View Post
    I have enjoyed reading this thread for awhile now and I have a question for the OP: Do you think a warchanter would offer more to a party than a spell singer?
    While not the OP, I can give the Universal answer..... IT depends on the Party and the quest.

    Let me explain. For most of the songs, not much difference. For battle, the Warchanter (if they did not splash too many other levels and miss out on some higher level bard enhancments) will have the edge. Now, how does one rate +2 damage on attacks. It is probably less than 10% boost in output (hopefully unless you have a weak (low STR) party.) A spellsinger gets a significant personal benefit (100 SP), and can provide a REAL nice perk to all casters in the group. A 10% spell point cost reduction, as well as a +1 DC on the spells, which makes that 10% more like 11-12% net reduction give a few fewer mobs which save vs spells at the higher DC.

    If your party is all melees with no Blue Bar, so the spellsinger synergy is lost, Warchanter probably wins. IF the party has multiple offensive casters (vs Buffers and Healers), I would wager that the Spell Singer wins.

    Both are welcome additions to almost any party. The main reason Warchanters have an edge in places like the Shroud is that those extra few points of damage a swing add up due to the mega hit point Portals, and the Fiend and for those DPS is the only real answer since you cannot take them out with one shot spells.
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  18. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comfortably View Post
    I have enjoyed reading this thread for awhile now and I have a question for the OP: Do you think a warchanter would offer more to a party than a spell singer?
    Comfy, like so many comparisons, it comes down to what you will be comfortable (pun unintended, I SWEAR!) playing. Now, Im not selling your question short .. I'll elaborate some...

    I have seen Rocka outplay spellsingers. I have easily outplayed some warchanters and even some clerics. A bard can sit back chill and do nothing. Thats the problem with the bard, too many have no idea how to build it and play it. If you utilize all the benefits of a bard, his/her benefit to the party is immeasurable. I have played both warchanters and spellsingers, and I prefer spellsinger because I can focus more on healing and crowd control. I can squeeze more out of these two trades than any warchanter. My buffs increase damage/attack of the melees and save spellpoints for all the blue bars. Because of my strength, I can switch to melee if needed. Also because I dont need to take melee feats and enhancements, I can bump my haggle into best-in-game. My goal of creating a max haggle thats can seriously CONTRIBUTE to almost every party Im in, makes me feel great. GOOD bards will tell you they LOVE their toon. There is so much to do (thank you Mr UMD).

    As for the warchanter the buffs are minimally better, but melee increases manyfold. Personally, I was bored with the melee output. Not saying its not good or great, but my tanks just hit harder. However, one look at Rocka, or any great melee focus bard, and you'll see some serious damage output and very decent healing/cc.

    So the answer I guess is which toon will YOU play to its MAX. Pick the one thats "YOU" and play that sucka to the MAX.


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  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod View Post

    19: Ranks
    14: Charisma of 38
    03: Feat: Skill Focus (Haggle)
    02: Feat: Negotiator
    04: Enhancement (Haggle IV)
    05: Enhancement (Human Versatility IV)
    04: Greater Heroism
    02: Luck Item (head of Good Fortune)
    15: Haggle +15 item
    03: House Deneith potion
    02: Bard Inspire Competence
    02: Monk buff
    01: Focusing Chant Spell
    ----------------------

    TOTAL: +76 Haggle

    Monk Buff? ok what buff is that?
    I've gone Rogue on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devastation View Post
    Monk Buff? ok what buff is that?
    Walk of the sun (fire-light-fire)

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