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  1. #21
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Thanks again Eladrin! Happy New Year to you and to the rest of the DDO community!

    I was kind of hoping that Barbarians would get Bear Warrior since druids are in the works anyway. Or maybe that holy barb. PrC from The Book of Exalted Deeds.
    Useful links: A Guide to Using a Gamepad w/ DDO / All Caster Shroud, Hard Shroud, VoD, ToD Einhander, Elochka, Ferrumrym, Ferrumdermis, Ferrumshot, Ferrumblood, Ferrumender, Ferrumshadow, Ferrumschtik All proud officers of The Loreseekers. Except Bruucelee, he's a Sentinel!

  2. #22
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    I was hoping for different Barbarian prestige enhancements that were more fun and interesting. The occult slayer and ravager don't really fit the bill. Oh bear warrior where are you. That first level barbarian that I rolled up will in all likelihood be a permanent mule...
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    A dwarf paladin will be better than a dwarf fighter, because the dwarf fighter will only have access to one PrE.
    Maybe not, because paladins have been complaining that their specialty enhancements are very expensive. A dwarf pally who tries to get both Stalwart Defender and Chalice Knight won't have APs left for any other good pally and dwarf enhancements.

    Specialty enhancements aren't free just because you qualify for them: they still cost AP, and their benefit per AP isn't always better than regular enhancements provide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    A ranged elf fighter will be better than a ranged elf ranger because you can grab Kensai and Arcane Archer, etc.
    Certainly not. Arcane Archer + Kensai is worse than Arcane Archer + Favored Enemy 12 + Ram's Might.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    That first level barbarian that I rolled up will in all likelihood be a permanent mule...
    Don't you think you're... overreacting a little too early?
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Certainly not. Arcane Archer + Kensai is worse than Arcane Archer + Favored Enemy 12 + Ram's Might.
    Except that's because fighters suck and rangers, well, are the most powerful class currently.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    PrEs should not be class specific... IMO.
    In general they should be less class-specific than they are now. However, the specialties available can be part of the factors used to balance different classes. And we certainly wouldn't want a paladin or monk to be able to take Tempest, for example.

    Therefore the safe way to improve things is to take existing specialties and open them to more than one class. Obvious candidates would be giving Tempest to Fighters and opening the sorc/wiz specialties to both sorcs and wizards. But even that could cause some problems (say if Tempest overshadows Kensai, or the Wiz specialties are superior to compensate for sorc advantage in other regards)

  7. #27
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Don't you think you're... overreacting a little too early?
    Well.. Occult slayer is going to be like knight of the chalice for paladins but for barbarians. Ravager is somewhat interesting sure although there are some more fun prestige classes such as Bear Warrior which would be really really fun. I also wonder what they will be doing for half orcs. I wanted something more sexy. I am not super interested in running a barbarian unless it has a real fun PRE.
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  8. #28
    Founder Shaamis's Avatar
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    Default Dissappointed

    I see there are (at this time) three prestige class enhancements paths for each class

    but I am dissapponted....

    One of the monk's three ISN'T THE BREWMASTER!?!?!?!

    That's it.


    <packing up my S***>

    <openning door>

    <going through door>

    <slammig door behind me>

    j/k

    I am kinda sad, but I understand.

    Can Shaamis just be the ONLY Brewmaster in Stormreach then, by chance!?!

    C'MON......... how much damage CAN an inebriated dwarven monk do!?!?!
    Shaamis is REBORN!

    Stronger!Faster! DRUNKER THAN EVER!!!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    And we certainly wouldn't want a paladin or monk to be able to take Tempest, for example.
    Why not? Crazy swing rate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    say if Tempest overshadows Kensai, or the Wiz specialties are superior to compensate for sorc advantage in other regards
    It can be argued that wiz vs sorc balance could be and even should be done outside of the PrE and that if Tempest overshadows Kensai then it only means that Kensai needs a little more love.
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  10. #30
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post


    Certainly not. Arcane Archer + Kensai is worse than Arcane Archer + Favored Enemy 12 + Ram's Might.
    hmmm. +14.5 damage for Kensai/fighter and +1 to crit range vs. +19 against a favored enemy. (also fighter has to have 1 level ranger for bow strength so they get +2 vs. favored enemy). I would say the Kensai/Arcane Archer wins but your point is well taken that Kensai isn't really that good of a pre and needs to be better..
    Norg Fighter12/Paladin6/Monk2, Jacquiej Cleric18/Monk1/Wiz1, Rabiez Bard16/Ranger3/Cleric1, Hangover Bard L20, Boomsticks Fighter12/Monk 6/Druid 2, Grumblegut Ranger8/Paladin6/Monk6, Rabidly Rogue L20, Furiously Rogue10/Monk6/Paladin4, Snowcones Cleric 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2, Norge Barbarian 12/FVS4/Rogue4. Guild:Prophets of The New Republic Khyber.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Why not? Crazy swing rate?
    Yes. When non-DPS weapons are in use it'd be overpowered to have Zeal + Tempest or Wind Stance + Tempest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    It can be argued that wiz vs sorc balance could be and even should be done outside of the PrE and that if Tempest overshadows Kensai then it only means that Kensai needs a little more love.
    That argument could be made, but it is wrong. That position would be calling for the devs to spend a lot of extra effort for no benefit.

    You see, game balance is hard work. It takes serious effort to judge if a particular rule system is balanced or not, and then much more to fix it so it is balanced (especially if you're not willing to take the easy road and balance via homogenization). If developers are asked to design classes that are balanced on their own and then also design specialties that remain balanced when placed atop those classes, it'll be almost as bad as having to balance the game twice. Once they must balance classes+specialties (which is necessary), and once they balance classes without specialties (which is pointless because there's no such thing as a "No Specialties" server).

    More simply, access to a specialty is one of the factors that can be used to distinguish between classes, making it a "lever" to correct imbalances. If the devs can't stop class X from taking spec Y then some tools to create a balanced game have been removed.
    Last edited by Angelus_dead; 01-02-2009 at 02:06 PM.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    PrEs should not be class specific... IMO.
    I can live with PrE’s being that way. They’re mimicing a 4.0 concept rather than a 3.5 concept.

    PrC’s on the other hand…
    Things that if Turbine went all EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on, would actually make the game fun again.:
    • Giving us the racial PrE’s we were promised, before rolling out DDOStore™ Enhancement Trees.
    • Fixing physical defense for Rangers and Rogues. It’s ridiculous that you’re better off wearing Heavy Armor and ignoring your innate feats on these classes.
    • Cannith Crafting.
    • Update the named loot to put them on the same system.
    • Fixing the Cannith Challenges so that they can be 6 starred without incredible luck or store bought items.
    • Fixing all challenges to give us decent XP and ingredient returns for the unreasonable time we have to spend in most of them.

  13. #33
    Community Member ehcsztein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudh View Post
    Heh, that would be some serious feat and Action Point costs
    Indeed, just depends upon how the cost on the 2 unknown ones are. (halfling and monk) should already comfortably be getting Assassin I and Knight of the Chalice I when the mod drops, and I have the full DM line already so it'll only be a matter of time.

    Or I will just have to build a new character specifically trying to fit 4 in.
    SARLONA
    Ulyn-22 Halfling (7rog/7pal/6mnk/2epic) Alyn-19 Helf TR2 (13dru/6mnk/1rng) Glyn-20 Halfling Cleric
    Ylyn-20 Drow (18brd/2ftr/2rog) Klyn-12 WF Wizard

  14. #34
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    no plans for a racial pre for humans or halfling? no urban soul?

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Once they must balance classes+specialties (which is necessary), and once they balance classes without specialties (which is pointless because there's no such thing as a "No Specialties" server).
    It depends on how you want PrE to be like.

    I'll try to explain what I mean but I have a huge headache today so pardon me if I'm unclear.

    If you want PrE to be just another way to balance classes, you are right that this is just additional work and the current implementation is better. That is only true if that is what PrE to be. However, PrE could be intended to be what I will call a "layer of choice". (If you have a better terminology, give it. I didn't try really hard to find something better)Other layers of choice are race and feats. They are part of the character design and leads to more diverse builds than if there would be no feats or no race.

    Turbine tries to make classes balanced regardless of race and make race somewhat equally attractive. PrE could be the same.

    Obviously, it requires more work from Turbine but it can be debated that it's worth it.
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  16. #36
    Founder Gol's Avatar
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    I'm disappointed to see Occult Slayer be a Barbarian PrE

    Admittedly, the list of Barb PrCs in P&P is a bit short, though.

  17. #37
    Community Member WeaselKing's Avatar
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    WF Pale Master Juggernaut FTW!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Milamber69 View Post
    Please forgive my personal attack, I was high on Platypus Venom at the time.

  18. #38
    Founder Gol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeaselKing View Post
    WF Pale Master Juggernaut FTW!!
    Yep, my Arcane Psycho has hope.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    If you want PrE to be just another way to balance classes, you are right that this is just additional work and the current implementation is better. That is only true if that is what PrE to be. However, PrE could be intended to be what I will call a "layer of choice".
    False dichotomy. Specialty enhancements can help balance classes in addition to other game design results.

    In fact, even the current class-restricted specialties add a layer of choice, kind of like having 30 classes instead of 10. But as I said, if they allowed only some of the specialties to be open to multiple classes, then the devs have more flexibility to avoid specific problems in game design. Maybe Druids would be overpowered if they get Fire Savant from sorcs; well, a system where the devs can arbitrarily match classes with allowed specialties give the devs an easy way to prevent that (or not, as the situation requires)

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    False dichotomy. Specialty enhancements can help balance classes in addition to other game design results.
    No, it's not. While it can accomplish both, depending on which is the priority, the choice will be different.

    One design will be preferred if class balance is the priority but a different design will be chosen if the priority is not class balance. Many methods can accomplish both, but each will score differently in each category: each having their advantages and disadvantages. The preferred design will be the one meeting the chosen objective the best while still being realistic.
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