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  1. #481
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Arcane Archer's +conjure arrows not only are unlocked at the same level as Archmage's tiers, but they also unlock other Arcane Archer abilities much in the same way additional PrE tiers unlock.

    They count as Arcane Archer tiers. By all rights and all but one definition (namely, name.)

    That being said, I wonder if one of the reasons why they aren't just transferring Stalwart Defender over to Dwarf is because they're trying to make it a bit more unique than Stalwart Defender?

    Or perhaps the people coding the classes have been busy trying to get Druid to work.
    Last edited by Zachski; 01-02-2012 at 07:50 PM.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
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  2. #482
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    Was thinking about this today and thought I'd give an update as to the progress. It's kindof sad considering it's been 3 years.


    Artificer: Battle Engineer, Runic Champion (?), Mastermaker (?) 1/9 - 1 that is 1/3 done, 2 that are just guesses as to the name
    Barbarian: Frenzied Berserker, Occult Slayer, Ravager 1/3 - 1 fully done
    Bard: Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter 2/3 - 3 that are 2/3 complete
    Cleric: Exorcist of the Silver Flame, Radiant Servant, Warpriest 2/9 - 1 that is 2/3 complete
    Favored Soul: Divine Avenger, Beacon of Hope, Angel of Vengeance 2/9 - 1 that is 2/3 complete
    Fighter: Kensai, Purple Dragon Knight, Stalwart Defender 2/3 - 2 that are complete
    Monk: Henshin Mystic, Shintao Monk, Ninja Spy 5/9 - 1 that's complete, 1 that's 2/3
    Paladin: Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice 3/3 - all 3 finished, and the only class that is such
    Ranger: Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest 5/7 - 2 complete, 1 at 1/3. Technically, the powers that be believe that AA is complete at 1/1. While I disagree, if they say it's complete then it's complete
    Rogue: Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat 7/9 - 1 complete, 2 at 2/3
    Sorcerer: Acolyte of the Skin, Air Savant, Cold Savant, Earth Savant, Fire Savant 12/15 - 4 complete, 1 not even started (or you could say 1/2 if you lump the savants together as Elemental Savant, but I won't do that here)
    Wizard: Archmage, Pale Master, Wild Mage 8/11 - 2 finished, 1 not even started

    Human: Cannith Dragonmark Heir, Deneith Dragonmark Heir, Orien Dragonmark Heir, Tharashk Dragonmark Heir 0/12 - none, if you think each will be 3 tiers total
    Dwarf: Kundarak Dragonmark Heir, Dwarven Defender [Counts as Fighter] 0/6 - none, even though stalwart defender is in the game and should be easy to move over
    Elf: Arcane Archer [Counts as Ranger], Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir 1/4 - since AA technically only has 1 teir at the moment still
    Halfling: Jorasco Dragonmark Heir 0/3 - not even started
    Warforged: Warforged Juggernaut [Counts as Barbarian] 0/3 - not even started
    Drow: Scorpion Wraith [Counts as Rogue] 0/3 - not even started, even though assassin is complete and should be the same PrE (since it count's as rogue)
    Half-Orc: Who knows...we don't
    Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Who knows...we don't. Phiarlan Dragonmark Heir?

    Edit: That's 51/121 total tiers. So prestige enhancements are 42.1% done three years later.


    You finish these, and people have a reason to play the whole game all over again.
    Enough people have convinced me to call AA 1/1. I'm not going to call it 5/5.
    Last edited by Pwesiela; 01-02-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    Or perhaps the people coding the classes have been busy trying to get Druid to work.
    I think they have just chosen to not prioritize the PrE's. Maybe because they cannot sell them (as PrE's are working now), like they can with e.g. adventure packs, races and classes.

    It is a sad state of affairs though. I think finishing all the PrE's in 2012 would really revitalize the game. A big part of DDO is character building, and PrEs are an important and fun element in that.
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  4. #484
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
    I think they have just chosen to not prioritize the PrE's. Maybe because they cannot sell them (as PrE's are working now),
    I sincerely doubt that.

    The developers do not program based on commission. They get paid a salary, most likely, to work. What they work on doesn't matter. Therefore, they have no less incentive to code PrE's than they do to code classes/adventure packs/races.

    Furthermore, PrEs are actually being worked on somewhat. They're also working on updating the currently existing PrEs to make them a bit more balanced.

    Judging by the fact that so much community demand is for druids, that any talk about classes, even by the devs, automatically defaults to druids (Artificer was released almost as an apology for taking so long for druids), and that druids are the one class that are giving them so much trouble with the shapeshifting, it's safe to say that the class coding dev team is mostly tied up with druids, with other classes and PrE's maybe getting looked at in their spare time.

    It is a sad state of affairs though. I think finishing all the PrE's in 2012 would really revitalize the game. A big part of DDO is character building, and PrEs are an important and fun element in that.
    Again, the devs have no individual incentive to work less on PrE's and more on stuff that sells, ESPECIALLY since the team that works on classes (which would likely include PrE's) isn't necessarily the same team that works on adventure packs.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
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  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    I sincerely doubt that.

    The developers do not program based on commission. They get paid a salary, most likely, to work. What they work on doesn't matter. Therefore, they have no less incentive to code PrE's than they do to code classes/adventure packs/races.
    ...
    Your seem to believe that the developers can work on whatever strikes their fancy. The devs sits down with their morning coffee in hand, scratches their heads and ponder: "Hmm, what to do today? Maybe I should work on a PrE. I saw that they were discussing them on the forums yesterday."

    That is of course not the way things work when developing software, or in any other workplace really (unless you are an 1-person company maybe). New (or changed) features are collected, discussed, authorized, budgeted, piloted, planned, prioritized etc. well before a dev gets the specs and starts programming. And then they develop what it was decided by their superiors that they should develop. I'm sure the DDO developers have a lot of say, and pitch a lot of ideas, but what, how and when to develop something is decided by management. And management often have different priorities than people "on the floor".

    (In fact Fernando said in an interview that the metamagic action-bar feature was developed by a dev when they had a "develop what you want"-week, implying that that is not the normal way they work - which of course would be a total unprofessional mess if that was the case.)

    The reason I think they have not prioritized PrE's is that they have had 3 years since they came out, and they have finished less than half of what PrE's they had set out to do. That kind of stands for itself. And I said that the reason they are still keeping such a lazy pace, could be lack of ways to monetize PrEs. Which is of course speculation on my part (but was never advertised as anything else).
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  6. #486
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
    Your seem to believe that the developers can work on whatever strikes their fancy.
    And you seem to believe that the developers see the money from DDO point bundles directly, and that there aren't multiple teams of devs.

    Nope. It's the bigwigs that see that money. They can tell the devs what to work on, true... but there's devs working on every aspect of the game.

    You can't just look at the prestiges being released. You also have to look at the prestiges being updated. Tweaks and such. Those count as PrE work, so a lot more has been accomplished than just "X amount of prestiges have been released", it's more like "X amount of prestiges have been released, and Y amount of updates have been made to the existing prestiges"
    Last edited by Zachski; 01-03-2012 at 09:48 AM.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
    Hey Devs! Monks need some big ol' loving. Lots of it. So does the Warpriest tree for Clerics and Favored Souls.

  7. #487
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
    Your seem to believe that the developers can work on whatever strikes their fancy. The devs sits down with their morning coffee in hand, scratches their heads and ponder: "Hmm, what to do today? Maybe I should work on a PrE. I saw that they were discussing them on the forums yesterday."

    That is of course not the way things work when developing software, or in any other workplace really (unless you are an 1-person company maybe). New (or changed) features are collected, discussed, authorized, budgeted, piloted, planned, prioritized etc. well before a dev gets the specs and starts programming. And then they develop what it was decided by their superiors that they should develop. I'm sure the DDO developers have a lot of say, and pitch a lot of ideas, but what, how and when to develop something is decided by management. And management often have different priorities than people "on the floor".
    Yeap exactly. The real reason why alot of the stuff the forumites say doesnt get listened to is because the people who need to be convinced likely dont read the forums. The feedback on the forums is all from a gameplay perspective, when alot of these moves made are done so according to business priority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
    (In fact Fernando said in an interview that the metamagic action-bar feature was developed by a dev when they had a "develop what you want"-week, implying that that is not the normal way they work - which of course would be a total unprofessional mess if that was the case.)
    He also told us wed be able to take the paralyzing ability off one weapon and stick it on another, a-la-carte style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razcar View Post
    The reason I think they have not prioritized PrE's is that they have had 3 years since they came out, and they have finished less than half of what PrE's they had set out to do. That kind of stands for itself. And I said that the reason they are still keeping such a lazy pace, could be lack of ways to monetize PrEs. Which is of course speculation on my part (but was never advertised as anything else).
    When this finally happens, ima link back to the thread where I stated it would when we were mad at artificer not being free to VIP and told by the majority to stop feeling entitled. Its right next to one of my other posts describing how people will dismiss the slippery slope arguement until that slope affects those in denial.

    Things that people will pay for up front are the priority. People have been asking for ranger animal companions for years, and the excuse was "we dont have the AI in place for that." Then hirelings came out, and have been out for years now - same excuse. Then they release a class that we can pay for up front, with pets that have hireling AI, on day 1. Rangers didnt get this, because they are FREE. Theres no incentive to develop it.

    In order to incentivize paying for PRE however, they have to make it more powerful than the ones the classes get for free, which is going to be even more hilarious when it happens. People who believe the game lacks balance right now will be begging for it to be returned to the state its currently in after this goes down. Im just sayin...
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  8. #488
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    In order to incentivize paying for PRE however, they have to make it more powerful than the ones the classes get for free, which is going to be even more hilarious when it happens. People who believe the game lacks balance right now will be begging for it to be returned to the state its currently in after this goes down. Im just sayin...
    I'm still wondering why Artificer has only 1 tier of one PrE. It was/is a money maker, since most don't want to do what I did and grind the favor. Same for FvS at 2/3 of 1 PrE. Same goes for monk at 5/9. Same goes for Half-Elf and Half-Orc. These are all the money making classes, and they're nowhere near done on their PrEs. The fact is, 3 years later and PrEs are not a priority, paying or otherwise.

    Heck, they released Artificer, a whole new class with a whole new area and a whole new AI system, with only 1 tier of 1 PrE!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    And you seem to believe that the developers see the money from DDO point bundles directly, and that there aren't multiple teams of devs.

    Nope. It's the bigwigs that see that money. They can tell the devs what to work on, true... but there's devs working on every aspect of the game.

    You can't just look at the prestiges being released. You also have to look at the prestiges being updated. Tweaks and such. Those count as PrE work, so a lot more has been accomplished than just "X amount of prestiges have been released", it's more like "X amount of prestiges have been released, and Y amount of updates have been made to the existing prestiges"
    My points is that since they cannot (at the moment) sell the PrE's in the DDO store, the managers are telling the devs to not work more on PrE's than absolutely "needed".

    I'm not saying PrE's are abandoned, of course. The existing ones do get a tweak here and there, and every year we get some new ones (like the caster ones not so long ago). But Pwesiela's point still stands - we still have half the way left until all classes have three full PrE's each. If they continue at this pace they will have finished the PrE's in 2015. It really shouldn't be a 6-year project, and as long as they won't make money on PrEs the management might want to keep PrEs on the back burner. Which is a shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    He also told us wed be able to take the paralyzing ability off one weapon and stick it on another, a-la-carte style.
    Heh, yeah that's true. Point taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chai View Post
    Things that people will pay for up front are the priority. People have been asking for ranger animal companions for years, and the excuse was "we dont have the AI in place for that." Then hirelings came out, and have been out for years now - same excuse. Then they release a class that we can pay for up front, with pets that have hireling AI, on day 1. Rangers didnt get this, because they are FREE. Theres no incentive to develop it.

    In order to incentivize paying for PRE however, they have to make it more powerful than the ones the classes get for free, which is going to be even more hilarious when it happens. People who believe the game lacks balance right now will be begging for it to be returned to the state its currently in after this goes down. Im just sayin...
    Yes. DDO is since two years a micro-transactional game (with a subscription option), with all that comes with that model. I think the DDO store is controlling (or at least strongly affecting) development, and that it will continue to do so.
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  10. #490
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    I'm still wondering why Artificer has only 1 tier of one PrE. It was/is a money maker, since most don't want to do what I did and grind the favor. Same for FvS at 2/3 of 1 PrE. Same goes for monk at 5/9. Same goes for Half-Elf and Half-Orc. These are all the money making classes, and they're nowhere near done on their PrEs. The fact is, 3 years later and PrEs are not a priority, paying or otherwise.

    Heck, they released Artificer, a whole new class with a whole new area and a whole new AI system, with only 1 tier of 1 PrE!
    All the things you listed are more powerful unfinished than the finished free PREs and races are with a few exceptions.

    With 1 tier of 1 PRE artificer still roflpwns many of the full tier finished PRE in what they can accomplish both alone and in groups. I distinctly remember one of the devs said his main job for a while was "making sure artificer doesnt suck" - it had to be more powerful than alot of the stuff in game already else it would not have sold.

    They are likely still kicking themselves for not making ToasterLich® a WF racial PRE and charging for it.
    Last edited by Chai; 01-03-2012 at 10:39 AM.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

  11. #491
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    Enough people have convinced me to call AA 1/1. I'm not going to call it 5/5.
    *shrug* so long as you call it completed and you are consistent.

    If you are calling AA 1/1, then you should call wizard archmage 1/1 as well as it is setup in the same manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    Heck, they released Artificer, a whole new class with a whole new area and a whole new AI system, with only 1 tier of 1 PrE!
    And? Bards were a single tier for years. Oh look, still not done.

    Their (developer) thought of release one tier at a time, and then change it to fit game play balance is not a bad one IF they would actually finish them in a reasonable time frame. Get them done, then worry about nerf and buff later as much as it annoys me to say that.
    Last edited by Missing_Minds; 01-03-2012 at 11:06 AM.

  12. #492
    I <3 DDO Pwesiela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missing_Minds View Post
    *shrug* so long as you call it completed and you are consistent.

    If you are calling AA 1/1, then you should call wizard archmage 1/1 as well as it is setup in the same manner.
    I would, except that I believe they are fundamentally different.

    AAI: You get a bonus to spell points, a true strike, conjured arrows, and imbues.

    After which, you can increase the + to arrows and the imbues. You do not get additional spell points or abilities.

    ArchmageI: You get a bonus to spell points and you get spell like abilities. You also get to pick a school to be better at.
    ArchmageII: You get a bonus to spell points and you get spell like abilities. You also get arcane bolt.
    ArchmageIII: You get a bonus to spell points and you get spell like abilities. You also get to choose a secondary school.
    ArchmageIV: You get a bonus to spell points and you get spell like abilities. You also get arcane blast and school mastery.
    ArchmageV: You get a bonus to spell points and you get spell like abilities.

    Comparing the two, and assuming AA as a 5 tier, AA gets +arrows at every tier (lets call that "bonus to spell points" for comparison) and imbues at every tier (we'll call that "spell like abilities"). That means the Archmage still gets a school focus, a secondary school focus, secondary school focus, school mastery, arcane bolt, and arcane blast. Even if we compare AA's 1 time additional spell points to "school focus" and the AA's true strike to "arcane bolt", Archmage still secondary school focus, school mastery, and arcane blast.

    I'd say Archmage has a 5 tiered system with gradually increasing power in each tier, while AA has one tier that gradually increases the power of the + it gives and the imbue it gives. We can't stack imbues, we can't stack spell points, we can't stack our +arrows to our bow.

    Interestingly, calling it 1/1 or 5/5 does nothing to change the overall analysis. We'd still be at 42% complete after 3 years. And the bulk of that completeness was when PrE's were first introduced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorie View Post
    Pwesiela is correct.

  13. #493
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Two Things:

    1. PrEs WOULD generate revenue in that hearts would be bought.
    -Plenty of splash builds would want to respec. (lesser hearts)
    -TRs would be enticed to check out a new way to build a char (dru. hearts)
    -Oohhh I want one of those too now (char slots)
    -Hmm that build might be FUN to play against that content (adv packs-- admittedly this one is a slight stretch, but it would happen some)

    -Holy ****, some new stuff. I guess I'll keep playing the game. (<---- HUGE)


    2. If the above isn't incentive enough, then MAKE THEM COST TP... Whatever, just GET ME PrEs!!!!
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  14. #494
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    Two Things:

    1. PrEs WOULD generate revenue in that hearts would be bought.
    -Plenty of splash builds would want to respec. (lesser hearts)
    -TRs would be enticed to check out a new way to build a char (dru. hearts)
    -Oohhh I want one of those too now (char slots)
    -Hmm that build might be FUN to play against that content (adv packs-- admittedly this one is a slight stretch, but it would happen some)

    -Holy ****, some new stuff. I guess I'll keep playing the game. (<---- HUGE)


    2. If the above isn't incentive enough, then MAKE THEM COST TP... Whatever, just GET ME PrEs!!!!



    One could argue that with retaining players AND with increasing TP sales, RIGHT NOW PrEs may be the MOST profitable thing they can do.



    EDIT: oops, I hit quote instead of edit on original post. Whadda Dork. :/ lol
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  15. #495
    Community Member Zachski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    2. If the above isn't incentive enough, then MAKE THEM COST TP... Whatever, just GET ME PrEs!!!!
    TERRIBLE idea. That's taking things AWAY from the Free to Play crowd, which would actually reduce revenue overall.
    The guy who likes to experience every class. Except Fighter >:[ I don't like you Fighter.
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  16. #496
    Hopeless Romantic dunklezhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    TERRIBLE idea. That's taking things AWAY from the Free to Play crowd, which would actually reduce revenue overall.
    yeah I don't think PrEs need to cost TPs. They come with a class, which is either free, or is paid for. No need to pay for a class feature on a class you've already paid for, and the free classes are supposed to get all their features for free. Either way - additional costs for PrEs is a bad idea.

    I second the motion that retaining players (new and existing) is more profitable over the course of a financial year.
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  17. #497
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zachski View Post
    TERRIBLE idea. That's taking things AWAY from the Free to Play crowd, which would actually reduce revenue overall.


    Well, I agree with the spirit of what you're saying. I really hope they DON'T charge for them. Even if they DO, they could make them unlockable with favor (again incentive to buy packs and MORE F2P friendly)


    Maybe only NEW PrE lines would be P2P/Favor unlock?


    Of course, come to think of it, since they had already laid out this promise list of PrEs, making them P2P now would be a ragefest on the forums on the level that would make the arti thing seem like a fist fight between two newborns...

    Fair nuff.
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  18. #498
    Community Member Meat-Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    One could argue that with retaining players AND with increasing TP sales, RIGHT NOW PrEs may be the MOST profitable thing they can do.

    Intentional self-quote this time.


    I'm coming back to the above statement. I'm just speculating of course, but I'm not sure that even a new race would be as effective at generating money right now. It would have to be a pretty awesome race. I don't think gnomes would do it. I have NO reason to buy gnomes, I know that. Unless they are some version of gnome that I haven't seen proposed on here yet.

    A new pack? Hmm.. only if it's a solid XP pack above lvl 16. Otherwise, I don't see it.


    PrEs = the best thing for monies right now? I think so overall. But I'm just one dork who likes a video game.
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  19. #499
    Scholar Of Adventure & Hero Missing_Minds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    I would, except that I believe they are fundamentally different.
    Frankly what you believe does not matter. Are you being objective or subjective in your analysis?
    Conjure Arrows requires the previous arrow set which can be called the previous tier. This is the same as the Archmage. Without the previous tier you can not advance further. Same is true of Archmage. It does not matter what advantage is gained. If you could pick and choose any/all without there being a tiered reliance, I'd agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwesiela View Post
    Interestingly, calling it 1/1 or 5/5 does nothing to change the overall analysis.
    To me that is just basic math.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    PrEs = the best thing for monies right now? I think so overall. But I'm just one dork who likes a video game.
    I know I'd agree with you. I'd have more inclination to play to see what could be done, let alone been waiting for years to try them.

  20. #500
    Community Member Chai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meat-Head View Post
    PrEs = the best thing for monies right now? I think so overall. But I'm just one dork who likes a video game.
    Seems to me they are focusing on things that make money directly - bonus points sales, mana potion discount sales, and pay to play class sales (convenience purchases rather than unlocking with favor)

    Unless they make PRE a direct sale (pitchforks are back in stock people, order now!!!) they are more of an indirect money maker. Sure they might see an increase in sales of pay to play classes if they put more in, but there is no money incentive to put the PRE in for free classes.

    How much money would be directly made for putting in other barbarian, sorc, and cleric PRE? - nada.

    From a player standpoint this all looks like neglect of class attention, however, from a business standpoint, things like artificer being released, and FvS getting its PRE (it is a pay to conveniently attain class after all) are more of a priority.

    Did making ToasterLiches® one of the more powerful thing in the game sell more WF or VIP subs? Yeah, but its not as predictable as "we just rolled out artificer with a repeater ramp up, gave them the best blade barriers in the game as well as best scroll amp enhancements, and sold this many between the roll out and the end of Q3."

    Occult slayer, accolyte of the skin, and purple dragon knight? I bet theyd make more money rolling out gnomes and druids, making both pay to attain, and making both disgustingly OP so they sell like hotcakes. Sound familiar? Of course it does, heh.
    Advocating repeated nerfs in the name of "balancing the game" then complaining about how DDO is moving away from D&D, is a direct contradiction in logic - D&D 3.5 (what DDO is based on) is not a balanced game. We can either have a balanced clone MMO with homogenized classes, or we can have a D&D game. We cant have both.

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