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  1. #141
    Community Member sephiroth1084's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post

    I'm ok with general bonuses, but lets not act like evil outsiders aren't the most important thing in the game to be good at fighting at high levels.

    Right now, but do we want the PrE to become obsolete the moment Turbine releases a new Mod without a focus on evil outsiders?

    Besides, these shouldn't all be looked at exclusively from an endgame perspective. While other classes are getting useful PrEs to take at level 6 and 12, the paladin is basically getting one to take only at level 18 (or just before going into the vale around 13/14).

    How many evil outsiders are there earlier in the game? I'm thinking CO 6 and Threnal, and...nothing else springs to mind.

    I get that paladins are very good in the first half of the game (even the first 3/4), but we could stand to have 3 meaningful PrEs, rather than 1 meaningful, a second somewhat meaningful, and a 3rd that is basically just a super-expensive level 18 enhancement.
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  2. #142
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    Huge meh

    The 3rd tier fear bonus should be definitely Fear Immunity. However, that would make the Courage of Good -prerequisite useless. Which I don't mind at all, as it should be replaced with something else anyway. Anything else.

    Again, meh!
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  3. #143
    Community Member jakeelala's Avatar
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    you should make this apply to anything that's evil, but just at 50%, and 100% against Evil Outsiders.

    Think about rangers with 1 favored enemy. How lame would that be?

  4. #144
    Community Member query's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Yeah, I agree

    I also call Meh.

    Once the outsider is gone, the abilities do not go anywhere like the beforementioned Hunter. So this line is weak or sometimes worthless building up to getting it, then has one big moment, and possibly a sudden goodbye unless outsiders ALWAYS play some important role from every quest forward.


    Even in planar adventures, the party will run into "outsiders" or Prime non demonic enemies just like we seem to find a huge number of elementals/mephits/blood war (devils/demons) in our "regular" plane.

    When it come down to it, I'd rather play a templar, Mettle included. Even a "short" PrC like this couold be expanded to a three tier enhancement line.


    But realisticly, we can expect modifications, not complete alterations at this point--as we're not recoding from the ground up now, and such will take a couple of mods to see if they did possibly.


    So, many of the previously mentioned suggestions are good (but I worry about undead addition as not to step on the toes of the Hunter line.)

    But the bottom line is:

    For the cost you ask for enhancements not as practical but more expensive apparently, what MORE will you add to make this a more rounded and/or powerful line than the points illustrated?

    (Yeah, when I too saw the reminder of the faith AP costs, I almost cried.)

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  5. #145
    Community Member Boldrin's Avatar
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    WHY!!!!!???? WHY!!!!!???? Why didn't I keep my pally pure!!!???? The shame!!!! A lvl 18 pally is going to rule the shroud with holy sword and these enhancements. Just send him in to solo Arri
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  6. #146
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    I'm considering having separate enhancement printouts for the KOC and Hunter PrC. If mod 9 has "shroud-like" grinding, I'll leave him here. If Mod 10 features undead, I'll switch him over to the hunter PrC with an enhancement swap. This would give him two mods where the Pally was a dominant melee class (which really hasn't happened since mod 1-3). Its really not a bad thing to be able to ungimp a pally in three days. Think about how long it has been since we've had that option.

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  7. #147
    Founder Balkas's Avatar
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    I think an AC bonus against outsiders would be nice.


  8. #148
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    Default Fixing Chalice Suggestions

    Steps to fix Knight of the Chalice. It has two problems: the DPS bonus is too situational, and the fear bonus is insubstantial.

    Changes:
    1. An anti-fear bonus better than just a +X on saving throws. There are many ways to do it, but a simple one is: Tier 1- proc a fear dispel on nearby allies every 15 sec, Tier 2- aura grants fear immunity, Tier 3- aura grants fear immunity for 60 sec.

    2. DPS and combat bonuses against more than just Evil Outsiders. When fighting an enemy related to Evil Outsiders you get half the bonuses to damage, attack, and saves. Related creatures include anything Fiendish or Fiend-blooded, anything evil-aligned that would be extraplanar if encountered on Eberron, anyone possessed by an evil outsider (such as Riedran Inspired), any evil aligned divine spellcaster, neutral divine spellcasters of an evil creed, and monks with Path of Inevitable Dominion. Those bonuses don't stack if a creature fits in multiple categories (or is also an Evil Outsider)

    A bonus vs Fiendish creatures just makes sense, and the bonus against evil divine casters would have some value in an enormous array of quests (think about how many goblins, vampires, and trolls are clerics of some kind). Evil Divine Casters presumably get powers from Evil Outsiders, so they'd be on the Chalice's hit-list.

  9. #149
    Dragonmark of Making Kalanth's Avatar
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    I dunno. I like it just enough that I will likely be finding someway to add this to my Tempest Paladin.

  10. #150
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    Does anyone know if the enhancement lines for the prestige classes are exclusive like the faith lines (Silver Flame, Sovereign Host, etc.) or can they be chosen like most other enhancements and unlocked though various prerequisite requirements. In simple terms, can a pally have both the abilities of Hunter of the Dead II and Knight of the Chalice II at the same time once the prerequisites are fulfilled?

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isys View Post
    In simple terms, can a pally have both the abilities of Hunter of the Dead II and Knight of the Chalice II at the same time once the prerequisites are fulfilled?
    No. Only one of the two. If you are, for example, 12paladin/6ranger, you can have KotC II and Tempest I however.
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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    No. Only one of the two. If you are, for example, 12paladin/6ranger, you can have KotC II and Tempest I however.
    I see that being the new Flavor of the Month build for DPS characters... Rog2/Rgr6/Pal12...

    That is, if the Monk AC bonus thing gets fixed properly.

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlassCannon View Post
    I see that being the new Flavor of the Month build for DPS characters... Rog2/Rgr6/Pal12...

    That is, if the Monk AC bonus thing gets fixed properly.
    14 pally gets you a stacking 10% more attack speed

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    14 pally gets you a stacking 10% more attack speed
    Which is why they will be clamoring all the more fervently for the level cap to move to 22 ASAP. A few of them might actually forego the two Rogue levels for the Tempest+Zeal combination at level 20.

    This is when Multiclassing beats out Pure classes to a point of interest for some, and demands a balance via Multiclass Penalty. We saw the problems Rage Critical 2 generated. Tempest+ Zeals won't be near as bad, mind, but there are min/maxing powergaming numbercrunchers out there just itching to make another "You suck, go die in a fire and play WoW because you aren't me, and you didn't build this build" design(yes, they actually do go out of their way to completely belittle and humiliate some folks, and recieve absolutely no repercussions for it... I see them right back at it when I log in a few days later).
    Last edited by GlassCannon; 02-22-2009 at 04:35 AM.

  15. #155
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    You know, now that I'm on Llama Land, and actually playing around with these things, I really need to add my voice to those who state that these cost too much AP to get the second and third levels. I mean, I'm fine with having the first tier require other enhancements, but to get the third level of this one, you have to spend 8 AP. 3 on improved turning III, 3 on extra turning III, and then an additional 2 on the actual enhancement. That's a full 2 levels for one enhancement, and it's insane. I highly suggest taking out the need to take the extra turning and improved turning. We all know that turning isn't worth the pixles it generates. Why make the paladins suffer to take them when they're bunk?

    Too much Turbine. Front load the cost, and get rid of the extensive cost after.
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  16. #156
    Community Member eonfreon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Steps to fix Knight of the Chalice. It has two problems: the DPS bonus is too situational, and the fear bonus is insubstantial.

    Changes:
    1. An anti-fear bonus better than just a +X on saving throws. There are many ways to do it, but a simple one is: Tier 1- proc a fear dispel on nearby allies every 15 sec, Tier 2- aura grants fear immunity, Tier 3- aura grants fear immunity for 60 sec.

    2. DPS and combat bonuses against more than just Evil Outsiders. When fighting an enemy related to Evil Outsiders you get half the bonuses to damage, attack, and saves. Related creatures include anything Fiendish or Fiend-blooded, anything evil-aligned that would be extraplanar if encountered on Eberron, anyone possessed by an evil outsider (such as Riedran Inspired), any evil aligned divine spellcaster, neutral divine spellcasters of an evil creed, and monks with Path of Inevitable Dominion. Those bonuses don't stack if a creature fits in multiple categories (or is also an Evil Outsider)

    A bonus vs Fiendish creatures just makes sense, and the bonus against evil divine casters would have some value in an enormous array of quests (think about how many goblins, vampires, and trolls are clerics of some kind). Evil Divine Casters presumably get powers from Evil Outsiders, so they'd be on the Chalice's hit-list.
    Now this is a darn good idea.

    Very useful, but not overpowering.

    Creates diversity and saves this Prestige from being a "One Trick Monkey" type of enhancement, worth more than just taking at Level 12 or up when you go out to the Vale (because there are no Undead anyway - just damn Orthons and Devils - do Flesh Renders in Threnals count?).

    And the Fear Dispel/Immunity Improvements just really replace Remove Fear Clickies/Spells.
    Nicely beefed up passive ability (which is nice - the paladin is the king of clickie abilities) but hardly earthshattering.

    This time I say you've hit the nail pretty much on the head.
    Last edited by eonfreon; 04-13-2009 at 11:01 PM.

  17. #157
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    Hmm...I'll just toss my two cents into increasing the general usefulness of Knight of the Chalice.

    The increase in the amount of smites per day is very nice as far as that goes. Why not take that a bit further, and take the abilities from Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite, and add those to Knight's smites. That is to say, add small bits of light damage and possibly increase the crit multiplier and/or range on a smite. Of course increasing the crit multiplier and range might have to be something saved until the last enhancement. Alternatively, it could just increase the base damage of smites in general.

    Just my quick 2 cp.
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