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  1. #461
    Founder binnsr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    It's 1d2. It's a monk enhancement on for Path of Harmonious Balance monks. It's only against undead. So you're good to go as long as you ALWAYS group with a monk who has taken the Fists of Light enhancement and you ALWAYS fight undead.

    I take it back. Frenzied Berserker is great. There will be tons of them on every server.

    /sarcasm off

    Maybe the other 2 barbarian things we havent seen a preview of yet will be great, but this one CLEARLY SUCKS. Barbarian should be the king of DPS and Frenzied makes it so again for about 1 minute, then you die while the Ranger is still alive and out DPSing your dead ass.
    Its pretty clear that you don't have a monk, nor do you routinely run with a monk. The Healing Curse from Fists of Light hits EVERY mob in the game except Sulu, the Hound and Harry. If I'm taking 1-3 damage from every swing and receiving 1-2(so you say - my experience says its more) back on every swing, then a barbie with 600hp is still going to get in 300 swings before the cleric feels like he has to throw a heal his way - discounting, of course, damage inflicted by the mobs.

    For that 1 point of damage per swing, you inflict 2d6 on the mob you're attacking. Seems like a pretty decent trade to me, but then, I like Divine Sacrifice on my pally too.. /shrug
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  2. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by binnsr View Post
    (so you say - my experience says its more)
    I'm just going by what is posted here:

    http://www.ddo.com/article/973

    Quote Originally Posted by from that page
    Fists of Light: Available only to Path of Harmonious Balance monks, this attack deals 2d6 additional damage against undead, and applies a retributive healing shield on the target which heals your allies that strike your target for 1d2 points of positive energy damage. This attack is flagged as a “Positive” attack for unlocking finishing moves. Level 3.
    Even so, having to have a monk all the time severly limits you. The Barbarian should be the KING of DPS at ALL TIMES, not when he has a monk in the party, not when he is just fighting the boss mob, AT ALL TIMES. Frenzied is not better then Tempest III for DPS, I just hope one of the other two are.

  3. #463
    Community Member gserlenga's Avatar
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    my barb took the two handed fighting line to Greater and has a number of good 2handed stat-damaging/effect type weapons as well as a mineral2 greataxe, so i am excited about the weapon effect proc on two handed glancing blows with this enhancement line very much. The Frenzy effects I will use when the occasion requires it, not constantly. i am glad I have a dwarf with 603base hp lol.
    Player on Sarlona since November 2006
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  4. #464
    Community Member Murderface's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorien the First One View Post
    Nope, take a look, it says that if you keep the old enhancements they will count as your Barb speciality, meaning that you can't pick up Frenzied until/unless you reset to get rid of the crit rage.

    And that's a great way to go BTW devs....that way people who designed for the old way and want to keep it can but those who want to try the new thing can as well. No nerfing, just a forward looking approach, well done!
    what they did to fighters ce 2 and ftrs dodge

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murderface View Post
    what they did to fighters ce 2 and ftrs dodge
    Bad example. At that moment, they totally changed the enhancement system. Grandfathering was impossible... and if they would have let us, we'd have been stuck with the same 4 enhancements, forever. None of which could be a PrE or a capstone.
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  6. #466
    Community Member Pyromaniac's Avatar
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    Saddling barbarians with carrying pocket monks around doesn't seem to be a great solution to enhance monks in my opinion.
    Thanks for the long time forum user purge of Aug '10 (Sarcasm for those who don't get it)

  7. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by binnsr View Post
    If I'm taking 1-3 damage from every swing and receiving 1-2(so you say - my experience says its more)
    Yes, it's more for monks, because they have Healing Amplification that barbs don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by binnsr View Post
    back on every swing, then a barbie with 600hp is still going to get in 300 swings before the cleric feels like he has to throw a heal his way - discounting, of course, damage inflicted by the mobs.
    Jumping from airplanes is perfectly safe- discounting, of course, traumatic deceleration upon contact with the ground.

    You're using a windfall fallacy: treating a resource differently because of where it came from. The 1-2 hp per attack from Fists of Light is something all melee members already have. It's the baseline for everyone, not something special for the barb.

  8. #468
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  9. #469
    The Hatchery sirgog's Avatar
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    Surprised at all the hate this enhancement is getting. I agree you won't want to be Greater Frenzied all the time, but let's pretend someone is. Let's say they hit 1000 mobs in a full quest. That's 2000 backlash damage (on average).

    8 heal spells to fix that. 280 cleric SP. And you've dealt an extra 14000 damage.

    Pretty effective, IMO, as long as the party is prepared for you to be playing this way.
    I don't have a zerging problem.

    I'm zerging. That's YOUR problem.

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirgog View Post
    Surprised at all the hate this enhancement is getting. I agree you won't want to be Greater Frenzied all the time, but let's pretend someone is. Let's say they hit 1000 mobs in a full quest. That's 2000 backlash damage (on average).

    8 heal spells to fix that. 280 cleric SP. And you've dealt an extra 14000 damage
    Thing is, a Death Frenzy Barbarian is not significantly ahead of a Kensai with Power Surge (the difference is ridiculously small), but he gets to take backlash damage (yay!) and his damage output is not as vulnerable to Fortification as the Frenzied Berserker. Oh, and he gets better Haste Boost as sweetener.

    You've got also to remember that for a TWF FB it's 420-446 backlash damage per damage/per minute when in single frenzy and 840-893 per minute when in double frenzy (which is the minimum to be ahead of the Kensai). Add to that incoming damage and it's quite a lot to handle.
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  11. #471
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Borror0 View Post
    Thing is, a Death Frenzy Barbarian is not significantly ahead of a Kensai with Power Surge (the difference is ridiculously small), but he gets to take backlash damage (yay!) and his damage output is not as vulnerable to Fortification as the Frenzied Berserker. Oh, and he gets better Haste Boost as sweetener.

    You've got also to remember that for a TWF FB it's 420-446 backlash damage per damage/per minute when in single frenzy and 840-893 per minute when in double frenzy (which is the minimum to be ahead of the Kensai). Add to that incoming damage and it's quite a lot to handle.
    Nobody counts or factors in supreme cleave. It could be very fun and highly useful for situations where a barbarian is swarmed by a ton of mobs and a healer is relatively close by..
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  12. #472
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    cleaving is only slightly more useful than a glancing blow, and to top it off, its situational to use; since the best time to throw it out is with a leading attack.
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  13. #473
    Community Member Vhlad's Avatar
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    Default My initial feelings

    FEEDBACK: re cleave

    I have been trying out cleave and even bound it to my side mouse button - I found it to be slow and less effective than a regular attack. As such, supreme cleave will probably hardly be used. These feats are good in pnp 3.5 since cleave attacks trigger for free when you drop a foe in melee, but as implemented in DDO they're not very appealing to use (cleave is a slower animation than a regular attack and as far as I know it doesnt apply any of your to-hit bonus from your attack chain). Even if supreme cleave didn't have the hp cost to activate, and even if it used your highest to-hit (i.e. the to-hit bonus of your attacks at the end of your attack chain animation) it still wouldn't be appealing. A barb is better off using normal attack chains with glancing blows in mod 9, especially with glancing blows applying weapon procs.

    FEEDBACK: re vicious, 1d3 or 2d3 (vicious + greater vicious).

    I have a fighter with 2x vicious greater construct banes for the portals in part 1 of the shroud. His hp goes down fast, and this is against an opponent that does not fight back. I question the viability of a barb taking 1d3 or 2d3 damage per attack, especially if that is procing off glancing blows (i.e. 1 swing, 2d3 backlash triggers 5 times, so 10d3 backlash per swing (or more!) if there are a lot of mobs grouped up). Does Turbine have any data mining software, where they can look at the frequency of vicious weapons being used in the game? It's low, very low. In fact my fighter with 2x vicious greater construct banes usually has to swap weapons in part 1 of the shroud due to party complaints, and/or not being healed fast enough, and/or not being healed at all. It's a mechanic that is not sustainable, desirable, or fun.

    FEEDBACK: re effects of diehard while raging

    Once again, not very useful, and of no use whatsoever for a warforged. Consider implementing deathless frenzy as enhanced DR while raging, or deathward while raging, or cannot go below -9 while raging.

    SUGGESTIONS:

    - consider replacing supreme cleave or vicious/greater vicious with:
    a) improved or supreme power attack (i.e. +2.5 or +3 damage per -1 to-hit of power attack with two-handed weapons)
    b) strong two-handed fighting (i.e. +2 bonus to damage for every str modifier for two-handed weapons, instead of +1.5)

    - consider adding the frenzied rage str bonus to regular rage, so that barbs see more of a benefit from the enhancement line without having to put up with vicious
    - consider changing vicious and greater vicious from frenzy and death frenzy to a chance to backlash for 1d3 damage (i.e. say a 20% chance to deal 1d3 damage to self, instead of 100% 1d3 (or 2d3) per swing).
    - consider changing vicious and greater vicious to just be 2d6 or 4d6 untyped damage with no backlash, but have the frenzy rage drain hp at a rate of X hp per Y seconds while raged (say, 2 hp per 10 seconds).
    - consider putting a cooldown on the backlash, such that you can only take 1d3 or 2d3 damage once per X seconds (say 6 seconds).
    - consider changing vicious and greater vicious backlash to just 1 damage per proc (so 2 damage with both frenzy and death frenzy, instead of 2d3)
    - consider changing vicious and greater vicious to 1d2-1 damage per proc, so you have a chance at taking 0 damage or 1 damage
    Last edited by Vhlad/Sair; 06-03-2009 at 05:39 PM.
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  14. #474
    Community Member Creeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhlad/Sair View Post
    FEEDBACK: re cleave
    *applause*

    agreed agreed agreed

  15. #475
    Community Member Vhlad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanka View Post
    get a bodyfeeder. That'll help offset the damage some.
    Turbine did not include bodyfeeder as a bonus on any of the greensteel recipes. If the choice was: bodyfeeder + frenzy/death frenzy VS. using a greensteel, you're better off just using the greensteel.

    Since bodyfeeder relies on a crit and therefore wouldnt do much good on a 20/x3 weapon, the comparision would probably be bodyfeeder falchion + vicious/greater vicious VS. greensteel greataxe or maul (greataxes and mauls are better, since they swing faster than a falchion).
    Last edited by Vhlad/Sair; 06-03-2009 at 06:24 PM.
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  16. #476
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by binnsr View Post
    You'd think that a character trained to use a bow would know about LEADING the target..
    This isn't an issue, it's a feature of DDOs active combat system - it allows YOU the player to control this aspect of your character. It's actually fully intended that arrows always shoot directly at the target and do not predict movement.

    The reason for this is to allow more flexibility. It's entirely possible to lead an arrow and hit a moving target - This is just up to your the player, not your character. Simply go into mouse look mode, clear your focus orb target and aim the arrow where you believe the monster will be when it arrives, voila you hit.

    DDO isn't an easy mode auto attack auto lead game. If it was I wouldn't be playing it or posting here.

    Also re: making party members chase what you hit.. Thats your fault also. Ranged combat in DDO has no penalty if you use it point blank, infact theres a feat that increases damage if you are close.. So just pretend your a melee and run up and shoot them, so your allies do not have to chase. Infact getting hit as a Barbarian is just THE barbarian way to range attack imo =) Especially if you got some guards or madstone boots on heh.

    Your real advantages will become clear later in quests where ranged offers a real advantage due to perching mobs - IE many Desert quests including the Demon Queen raid. And some other raids such as Reaver (easier to range air elementals) and sometimes shroud (if the clerics run out of mana or too many people die you can fall back to range)

  17. #477
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    Kensai (Damage Enhancers)
    +11 to strength
    +1 critical range
    +6 GWS + Enh.
    Fighter Haste Boost

    Barbarian
    +12 to strength
    +2 critical multiplier (on 19-20)
    Wow.. Talk about made up biased numbers. Here's some real numbers capped Ftr Kensai vs Barb Berserker:
    Kensai (Full):
    Power Surge: +8 Insight bonus to strength (Module9 may intro other sources of insight bonus to strength which will not stack) Uses up 1 use of atttack boost - Also may place all action boosts on cooldown? Maximum Duration: 5-7 Min.
    +3 Strength Enhancement - Always stacks
    +1 Critical Range with ONLY 1 weapon type
    +GWS + Enhancements
    +10% attack speed with all weapons (capstone)
    +Haste boost (potentially un-useable while power surged)

    Barbarian:
    +12 Strength from Rage alone - with a basicly unlimited duration of up to over 45 minuits easily - Untyped bonus that always stacks with everything and cannot be dispelled
    +2 More Strength from Capstone - untyped always stacks
    +Unknown Bonus to Glancing Blow Damage via Capstone (could be very high)
    +Unknown bonus to Glancing blows chance to proc additional effects (reported to be higher then Kensai but still unknown for sure)
    +10 More strength from double frenzy (Total Str bonus of 24 vs 11 for Ftr)
    +6D6 untyped damage from double frenzy
    +2 Critical Multiplier - with ANY weapon.
    +Damage Boost (4 points, rather weak - this is what really needs a boost - at level10 in module zero, this was +10 damage and did not interupt your attack flow, it should be restored)
    +Sprint Boost (imo leads to more DPS due to DDOs active nature of battles and tendancy of monsters to move very fast)
    +Supreme Cleave (remains to be seen how effective this is)

    Barbarians will continue to be the DPS kings as they are now and have always been. Not to mention the best tanks due to the superior hitpoints and damage reduction. Fighters will certainly catch up some in the DPS area, and continue to be a more flexible class, but not the best DPS class.

    As I've mentioned before.. I've tested the Berserker on Lamannia and found the self damage minor and nothing to be worried about. Any decent healer will keep us going and be thankful to have such a powerful killing machine at work for them.

  18. #478
    Community Member mediocresurgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    Here's the brutal killer of... well... just about everything (including itself), the damage dealing class that just doesn't know when to stop, the Frenzied Berserker!
    Link to bacon? ***??

    The nerfing will continue until morale improves!

  19. #479
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mediocresurgeon View Post
    Link to bacon? ***??
    lol never seen that before. Maybe silly tolero sliped that in, in her edit last week?

  20. #480
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Question:
    Since the critical multiplier is increased, on a 19 or 20.. For weapons that deal special effects on criticals - such as a flaming burst weapon or shroud weapon with bursts... Which deal bonus dice based on the multiplier, like +1d10 for x2, 2d10 for x3 and 3d10 for x4...

    Will this bonus correctly increase the damage these effects deal?

    So a flaming burst greataxe, on a 19 may deal 2d10 normal.. But since your multiplier is now +2, its x5.. Which would be +3d10 or +4d10?

    For up to +40 dmg fire dmg.. Vs something vulnerble (+50%) to fire that could mean up to +60 damage on an optimal strike?

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