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  1. #441
    Founder binnsr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
    An interesting Berserker that came up in playtest was a Ranger/Barbarian archer that used the Frenzy abilities with a bow, gaining the benefits of the increased strength, ignoring the Vicious aspect that only affects melee weapons.
    Just thought I'd pop in here and comment on this comment..

    I recently started a ranged barbarian, having had the same thought you mentioned, and am now stalled at lvl5. He just doesn't do enough damage to be anything other than an annoyance to other party members. He does just enough so that everyone has to chase the mobs around until they can establish agro - and if he waits for them to establish initial agro, the mobs are dead by the time the arrows start arriving.

    The issues with ranged vs. melee are just too great at the moment for me to say this is a viable option..
    First, we have the rate of fire. With 2 ranger levels and a BAB of 5, I'm firing alot slower than my counterparts with axes and swords. This equates to a lower DPS rate, which means I'm not contributing as much to the party - I could go in with my +1 acid light mace and DPS them quicker than I can range them - and this is using a race-restricted icy-burst longbow of pure good at lvl5.
    The second issue - and this is a really irritating one - is that I often have as many as 50% of my arrows just disappear. This is particularly noticeable against mobs that are moving and animals (such as wargs/wolves and scorpions). It happens nearly 100% of the time if the mob is moving at an angle to my line of fire. You'd think that a character trained to use a bow would know about LEADING the target..

    I'll give him another level or two, when I get manyshot and a Silver Longbow, but doing great damage for 20-seconds every 2 minutes doesn't sound like all that much fun when the other 1:40 the mobs are plucking the arrows out of their hide and laughing at me.
    -=]ArchAngels[=-

  2. #442
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    After looking at the numbers this enhancement is pretty weak unless you are willing to frenzy. As of right now I think Kensai Fighters as well as Rangers will out DPS Barbarians in most cases.

    If power surge for Kensai is one minute you have the following situation:

    Kensai (Damage Enhancers)
    +11 to strength
    +1 critical range
    +6 GWS + Enh.
    Fighter Haste Boost

    Barbarian
    +12 to strength
    +2 critical multiplier (on 19-20)

    So, if power surge is made to last 1 minute, you've essentially made Fighters=Barbarians in terms of strength, and with the other benefits they actually out DPS Barbarians unless they frenzy.

    So the question is how practical is constant greater frenzy? To me it sounds like it is NOT practical to take in 2 damage each swing. At least that is my opinion of it.

    I am not even going to throw in Rangers against FE which with tempest + STWF blow both out of the water.

    This enhancement line needs as second look, the frenzy stuff needs to either do more damage, or do less damage back to the Barbarian.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 02-03-2009 at 08:45 AM.

  3. #443
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    this SUCKS.

    Anything that takes away HP (IE: Vicious) even at 1d3 : 2d6 SUCKS BIG TIME AND IS TOTALLY WORTHLESS. You might be able to argue that it could be worth something in a given situation, but you would still be wrong.

    IT SUCKS!

  4. #444
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    this SUCKS.

    Anything that takes away HP (IE: Vicious) even at 1d3 : 2d6 SUCKS BIG TIME AND IS TOTALLY WORTHLESS. You might be able to argue that it could be worth something in a given situation, but you would still be wrong.

    IT SUCKS!
    Wrong.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    Wrong.
    I am right, you are wrong and it will be proven so when there are no frenzy barbarians.

  6. #446
    Community Member Whargoul's Avatar
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    Default Have you considered bodyfeeders?

    I've got some nice bodyfeeders I'm looking forward to trying out when mod 9 hits: scimmys, kukris, falchions, rapiers, etc... Now just need to find some bodyfeeder of weighted mauls and war hammers to try for fun (stun then autocrit + bodyfeed ftw). If you know how to mitigate incoming vicious damage, you may be able to enjoy the benefits of frenzy more often.

    It's a pity though, that frenzying will likely not be suitable for solo play. Oh well... Time to roll up a ranger.

    -Whargoul
    Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Brewin, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian

  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whargoul View Post
    I've got some nice bodyfeeders I'm looking forward to trying out when mod 9 hits: scimmys, kukris, falchions, rapiers, etc... Now just need to find some bodyfeeder of weighted mauls and war hammers to try for fun (stun then autocrit + bodyfeed ftw). If you know how to mitigate incoming vicious damage, you may be able to enjoy the benefits of frenzy more often.

    It's a pity though, that frenzying will likely not be suitable for solo play. Oh well... Time to roll up a ranger.

    -Whargoul
    Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Brewin, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian
    The problem with the bodyfeeder type solution is that you are giving up a better weapon to heal some damage coming back. So, you lose a lot of the dps benefit of frenzy by using an inferior weapon to something like a mineral 2 greensteel weapon for example.

  8. #448
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    this SUCKS.

    Anything that takes away HP (IE: Vicious) even at 1d3 : 2d6 SUCKS BIG TIME AND IS TOTALLY WORTHLESS. You might be able to argue that it could be worth something in a given situation, but you would still be wrong.

    IT SUCKS!
    Well it's 4d6+3 extra for a start (including THF Str bonus) or 6d6+4 if you double Frenzy.

    So let's look at what that gets you - in a 5 swing 'melée round' you put out up to 30d6+20 and take 10d3 in return. That avrages at inflicting 125 points of damage and receiving 20 when you double Frenzy.

    If you 4d6 Frenzy you put out an average of 85 and receive only 10 - you're putting out almost 9 times the extra damage you receive.

    Sure, you're going to have problems with pug Clerics, but what's new there for a Barb?

    Question - how much damage do you think you're mitigating by killing mobs quicker when you Freny?

  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Stele View Post
    Well it's 4d6+3 extra for a start (including THF Str bonus) or 6d6+4 if you double Frenzy.

    So let's look at what that gets you - in a 5 swing 'melée round' you put out up to 30d6+20 and take 10d3 in return. That avrages at inflicting 125 points of damage and receiving 20 when you double Frenzy.

    If you 4d6 Frenzy you put out an average of 85 and receive only 10 - you're putting out almost 9 times the extra damage you receive.

    Sure, you're going to have problems with pug Clerics, but what's new there for a Barb?

    Question - how much damage do you think you're mitigating by killing mobs quicker when you Freny?
    I guess we will see, at least monks will have some company on the left out of PUG lfm classes. The risk of getting a Barbarian who doesn't understand when to frenzy and also uses supreme cleave non stop will be too great. You are also ignoring that you may get vicious on glancing blows which would (most likely) also damage you back.

    I would guess the hit point ratio of mobs to Barbarian is at least 6:1, so efficiency is an issue when mob hit points are a lot higher than yours.

    How many times do you hit a mob in a quest, your "5 swings" analogy is over simplified. My guess you might swing and hit more than a thousand times in a decently long quest. So, now you are talking 1000d3, 2000d3, more? of extra damage that someone has to heal in a typical quest. It adds up.

    Frenzy sucks, at least to me. How many characters do you have that use vicious all the time currently? You know that there is nothing stopping a fighter from now picking up a vicious weapon and joining the killing themselves party.

    It might be good in the right hands and in groups with plenty of healing and willingness for expending resources (heal scrolls etc...). As a general idea it is a poor one.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 02-04-2009 at 08:37 AM.

  10. #450
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    Default Suggested Improvements to Frenzied Berserker

    I would separate out the strength boost from the vicious damage. Give the strength boost as a passive bonus along with the critical multiplier.

    This keeps Barbarians above power surged fighters in terms of strength, which they should be to me.

    Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
    Prereqs: Level 6 Barbarian, Power Attack, Cleave, Barbarian Damage Boost II, Barbarian Power Attack I, Barbarian Power Rage I.
    Cost: 4 AP
    Benefit: You gain the effects of the diehard feat while raging, and your glancing blows have a chance of applying magical weapon effects. You strength when raged increases by 2. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hit points to enter a frenzy which adds the 'Vicious' property to your melee weapons.

    An interesting Berserker that came up in playtest was a Ranger/Barbarian archer that used the Frenzy abilities with a bow, gaining the benefits of the increased strength, ignoring the Vicious aspect that only affects melee weapons.

    Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
    Prereqs: Level 12 Barbarian, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 1, Barbarian Damage Boost III, Barbarian Power Attack II, Barbarian Power Rage II.
    Cost: 2 AP
    Benefit: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1 when you roll a natural 19 or 20. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hp to Supreme Cleave.

    Supreme Cleave:
    Benefit: Expend 10 hit points to attack all nearby enemies.

    Supreme Cleave has no cooldown other than a standard 1 second global cooldown for attack actions. As long as you've got the hit points, you can continue to bring the pain.

    Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
    Prereqs: Level 18 Barbarian, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 2, Barbarian Damage Boost IV, Barbarian Power Attack III, Barbarian Power Rage III.
    Cost: 2 AP
    Benefit: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by an additional 1 when you roll a natural 19 or 20, bringing the total bonus to 2. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. Your strength when raged now increases by a total of +4. You also gain the ability to expend 20 hit points to enter a death frenzy (which can stack with your basic rage and frenzy), adding the 'Greater Vicious' property to your melee weapons. (+4d6 damage / +1d3 damage to self)

  11. #451
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    I guess we will see, at least monks will have some company on the left out of PUG lfm classes. The risk of getting a Barbarian who doesn't understand when to frenzy and also uses supreme cleave non stop will be too great. You are also ignoring that you may get vicious on glancing blows which would (most likely) also damage you back.
    If the barbarian is using frenzy an entire quest, then somethings wrong. For regular trash the added damage just isnt needed, unless its part of a contest. BUT if the frenzy damage is enough to allow you to kill a monster in 1 fewer swing, and possibly negating an incoming attack, the frenzy damage could be worthwhile. Afterall 20 damage is pittance when compared to how much most monsters hit for. If it prevents one monster swing then its worthwhile. If they're already dropping like flies, or being immobolized with CC, then frenzy probably shouldnt be used, as THAT would create extra work for the cleric.

    Besides this is coming with a level cap raise, mighty rage, etc. Most well equiped barbarians, even those w/o max con can and should be around 800 HP at lvl 20. 2d3 to self is not going to be that bad.
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackSteel View Post

    Besides this is coming with a level cap raise, mighty rage, etc. Most well equiped barbarians, even those w/o max con can and should be around 800 HP at lvl 20. 2d3 to self is not going to be that bad.
    Well essentially that is what this PRE comes down to, will the vicious damage be tolerable or not. If it is then the damage potential is good, if it is not then it is pretty weak compared to other class options.

    Debating about how much self damage will be tolerable is pretty hard to do without actually trying it.

    As far as the not frenzy all the time bit, without frenzy a Barbarian will be behind Fighters/Rangers in terms of DPS which to me seems wrong given that is about all Barbarians are good for.

  13. #453
    Community Member BlackSteel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    Well essentially that is what this PRE comes down to, will the vicious damage be tolerable or not. If it is then the damage potential is good, if it is not then it is pretty weak compared to other class options.

    Debating about how much self damage will be tolerable is pretty hard to do without actually trying it.

    As far as the not frenzy all the time bit, without frenzy a Barbarian will be behind Fighters/Rangers in terms of DPS which to me seems wrong given that is about all Barbarians are good for.
    not at all really, they're not behind now, and taking the PRE only drops they're current DPS by about 10 points when not in frenzy. Thats still more than the fighter, and pretty much identical to the ranger. But they have the option of going super barbarian with frenzy.

    I thought the whole thing you were arguing is that the damage wouldnt be tolerable
    Shadowsteel [TR train wreck]

  14. #454
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    If you think Frenzy sucks, keep Crit Rage. Simple as that.

    The fact is mod 8 Ranger out-DPSes mod 8 Barb, which is wrong.

    In mod 9 Barb can once again claim to be DPS king, but pays a price...

    Seems pretty reasonable to me.

  15. #455
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    I am right, you are wrong and it will be proven so when there are no frenzy barbarians.
    You don't have any monks on your server?

  16. #456
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    I'm lucky enough to be in a guild that likes DPS...so the healers like to keep us no-ac Barbs alive. If you're in a guild where everyman is required to keep themselves up and be self sufficient, than your guild won't be seeing many FBs.

    I'll have 2. Thanks Rhynn.

  17. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    You don't have any monks on your server?
    Monks lose hit points on every successful hit?

    How many people are there on your server running around using Vicious weps?

  18. #458
    Community Member Mhykke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    I am right, you are wrong and it will be proven so when there are no frenzy barbarians.
    I'm planning on being a frenzy barb, so there will be at least 1 on Argo.

    Of course, I can't get groups now, so nothing will change for me.
    Mhykke(Pldn):Mhykkelle(Srcr):Mykkelle(Rngr):Mhykael(Clrc):Mykke(Brbrn):Mhykel(Ftr):
    Mhykelle(Wzrd):Mhyke(Brd):Mykkael(Rgr/Rog/Barb):Mykkel(Rog):Mhykkaelsan(Mnk):Mhykkael(FVS):Mhykkel(Brd):Markas(Ret.Srcr)

  19. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by doNotWantYo View Post
    Monks lose hit points on every successful hit?

    How many people are there on your server running around using Vicious weps?
    A vicious weapon inflicts 1d3 damage per hit.
    A monk inflicts a Curse of Healing by using Fists of Light
    A character using a vicious weapon on a monster that has the Curse of Healing is healed a few hitpoints (unsure on the exact amount, but seems to be ~1d4 or so) on every successful hit.
    -=]ArchAngels[=-

  20. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by binnsr View Post
    A vicious weapon inflicts 1d3 damage per hit.
    A monk inflicts a Curse of Healing by using Fists of Light
    A character using a vicious weapon on a monster that has the Curse of Healing is healed a few hitpoints (unsure on the exact amount, but seems to be ~1d4 or so) on every successful hit.
    It's 1d2. It's a monk enhancement on for Path of Harmonious Balance monks. It's only against undead. So you're good to go as long as you ALWAYS group with a monk who has taken the Fists of Light enhancement and you ALWAYS fight undead.

    I take it back. Frenzied Berserker is great. There will be tons of them on every server.

    /sarcasm off

    Maybe the other 2 barbarian things we havent seen a preview of yet will be great, but this one CLEARLY SUCKS. Barbarian should be the king of DPS and Frenzied makes it so again for about 1 minute, then you die while the Ranger is still alive and out DPSing your dead ass.
    Last edited by doNotWantYo; 02-11-2009 at 11:35 AM.

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