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  1. #421
    Community Member query's Avatar
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    Question Grandfathered barbarians? Am I the only

    one who envisions raging to their hated foes......on a walker+1?


    You know why nobody will take the Crit Rage barbarian as seriously as the other barbarian enhancement paths?


    Because the get no respec!

    *Dodges thrown greataxes....wow those grandpa Fanbois are strong!*


    Whatever works for you seriously. I like both options as long as you understand what you get and what you don't get on each enhancement path. Including any revisions in advance to the changes.


    (But the previous was MUCH more fun to write )

    Be careful what you wish for, what you say is best; for sometimes what you seek is found, not at the end of the quest.
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  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beherit_Baphomar View Post
    Im not gonna respec out of crit rage II. There is a reason they are trying to take it out.
    That sums it up pretty well.

  3. #423
    Community Member Whargoul's Avatar
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    Default Crit multiplier on 19-20 needs clarification

    Thinking about the following scenario:

    A barbarian with FB3 and improved critical: slashing (or piercing), decides to try out a weighted warhammer.

    Q1: What is the crit multiplier when the opponent is stunned?
    A1: The multiplier is x3, unless the die roll is a 19-20 then x5.

    Q2: What happens when the opponent is not stunned, but the attack roll is a natural 19?
    A2: It is not a critical hit, therefore no additional multiplier.

    My interpretation for A1 is likely correct, but I would prefer the multiplier be x5 on helpless targets.

    My interpretation of A2 may be correct (not sure), but I would like to see the warhammer get a +2 multiplier on a natural 19 (i.e. x3 damage) without seeing 'on crit' effects go off (because it is not technically a crit).

    The PrE just lacks a lot of oomph after the 19-20 multiplier change. Without Crit Rage, my barbarian will have a much harder time soloing with his useless AC. The FB really needs better DPS scaling throughout FB1-FB3, and the 19-20 +1/+2 multiplier isn't going to cut it. Perhaps gradually extending the multiplier range of FB from 19-20 to 17-20 would help. Hmmm...

    Something like this perhaps:

    level - proposed mechanics
    1 - Current: baseline (no improved crit)
    6 - FB1: +1 multiplier (19-20 only)
    9 - improved crit + FB1: +1 multiplier (19-20 only)
    12 - improved crit + FB2: +1 multiplier (17-20 only)
    18 - improved crit + FB3: +2 multiplier (17-20 only)

    Edit: Not proposing you get a free feat at level 9, only that most players take the feat at level 9 and therefore should be included in the calculations.

    I actually plotted this using Angelus_dead's calculations and it resulted in much smoother-scaling power curve between levels 1-18. It also retains the inherent crit power of the weapons just like the 19-20 version does. Unfortunately I can't figure out an easy way to plot those here, maybe a forum guru can help with that. Anyway, it's food for thought.

    Peace,
    Whargoul

    Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian
    Last edited by Whargoul; 12-18-2008 at 03:32 PM.

  4. #424
    Community Member nbhs275's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whargoul View Post
    Thinking about the following scenario:

    A barbarian with FB3 and improved critical: slashing (or piercing), decides to try out a weighted warhammer.

    Q1: What is the crit multiplier when the opponent is stunned?
    A1: The multiplier is x3, unless the die roll is a 19-20 then x5.

    Q2: What happens when the opponent is not stunned, but the attack roll is a natural 19?
    A2: It is not a critical hit, therefore no additional multiplier.

    My interpretation for A1 is likely correct, but I would prefer the multiplier be x5 on helpless targets.

    My interpretation of A2 may be correct (not sure), but I would like to see the warhammer get a +2 multiplier on a natural 19 (i.e. x3 damage) without seeing 'on crit' effects go off (because it is not technically a crit).

    The PrE just lacks a lot of oomph after the 19-20 multiplier change. Without Crit Rage, my barbarian will have a much harder time soloing with his useless AC. The FB really needs better DPS scaling throughout FB1-FB3, and the 19-20 +1/+2 multiplier isn't going to cut it. Perhaps gradually extending the multiplier range of FB from 19-20 to 17-20 would help. Hmmm...

    Something like this perhaps:

    level - proposed mechanics
    1 - Current: baseline (no improved crit)
    6 - FB1: +1 multiplier (19-20 only)
    9 - improved crit + FB1: +1 multiplier (19-20 only)
    12 - improved crit + FB2: +1 multiplier (17-20 only)
    18 - improved crit + FB3: +2 multiplier (17-20 only)

    Edit: Not proposing you get a free feat at level 9, only that most players take the feat at level 9 and therefore should be included in the calculations.

    I actually plotted this using Angelus_dead's calculations and it resulted in much smoother-scaling power curve between levels 1-18. It also retains the inherent crit power of the weapons just like the 19-20 version does. Unfortunately I can't figure out an easy way to plot those here, maybe a forum guru can help with that. Anyway, it's food for thought.

    Peace,
    Whargoul

    Sarlona: Bottles, Kungfu, Devilride, Robotdevil, Bladebarian
    Hmm, does seem kinda odd that stunning blow or other autocrit effects wouldnt extend to barbarians x2crit multiplier. Especially when it is LOWERING their DPS vs crit range... Really it should just be applied to all weapons the same.
    Aundair, New Khyber
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  5. #425
    Community Member Deragoth's Avatar
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    I won't be specing out of Crit Rage II either.
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  6. #426
    Community Member deadkitty's Avatar
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    Question is do bursting effects stack? Ex. 6d6 Burst damage for a X6 crit?
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  7. #427
    Community Member Elements's Avatar
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    Default I guess Barbarians are special right DEVS?

    What a joke why is Barbarian crit rage not being changed for everyone you have never made exceptions in the past for any other enhancement line. For example human Versatility Fighters dodge bones and combat expertise

  8. #428
    Community Member nbhs275's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elements View Post
    What a joke why is Barbarian crit rage not being changed for everyone you have never made exceptions in the past for any other enhancement line. For example human Versatility Fighters dodge bones and combat expertise
    im pretty sure its always been the case with the new system that if you already had an enhancment, it wasnt taken away from you if a change/removal was made until you reset your enhancments. The old 4 slot enhancment system sucked hard and was completly unbalanced. ITs also hard to support them leaving in an old broken system after instating a new, more balanced system.
    Aundair, New Khyber
    Alreck Gingerbarrel(15clr/1barb), Torrak Gingerbarrel(16 Brd), Oat(13 Rgr/3Ftr), Moxxy(16 Sor), Thorrac Gingerbarrel(6 Pal/1 Ftr) <<Current Toons>>

  9. #429
    Founder BSharp's Avatar
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    Unhappy Respec for broken toon?

    I have a non-traditional barb toon that I built with UMD to use use WoP rapier knowing that Improved Critical Rage, and Improved Crit Piercing would create a lethal combination when raged. Not the highest strength build, but a high dex and a low 30 something strength when raged.

    I've started the character with a certain build, leveled up a certain path, kept certain gear, and now see that change having a profound negative effect. In regards to grandfathering, thanks but no thanks. I'd like to play by the same rules as everyone else, and be able to rework my enhancements without penalty.

    I have a traditional strength based barb who this could be a boon too, but it breaks my other build. She was built to mow thru mobs, but not a boss killing machine, and now she wont be either. (Since the change to remove stat damage to red names ages ago).

    I dont know if I would have even created the toon based on the new change. If I would have it would not look anything like the current one. Will I have any options on unbinding gear? respecing? Or am I hosed and have to lose the gear, the time, and re-roll?
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  10. #430
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    Default Lazy, but have some points to make.

    I really cannot be bothered reading the 22 pages to find out if someone has already said what i am about to suggest.

    Instead of make the special Crit stuff happen only on a 19 or 20 can we either:

    1) Make it for Slashing and Bludgeoning Weapons only and everything Crits as normal with the Weapon used adding the enhancements effects.

    2) or Make it for Twohanded weapons only with no change and everthing Crits as normal with the Weapon used adding the enhancements effects.

    The 19-20 Crit-range says make a Mineral II greataxe cause that is all you need and the only way to be a real Barbarian. Please let us broaden the use/options for martial weapons that a Barbarian is proficient in from first level.
    Last edited by Raegoul; 01-05-2009 at 06:24 PM.
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  11. #431
    Community Member Mhykke's Avatar
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    It all depends on how you want to play. If you don't mind taking the 2d3 damage and needing a lot of attention, then the Greater Frenzy DPS is bigger than the Crit Range DPS, and by a pretty decent bit.

    I'm torn, but I think I'm leaning towards the Frenzied Bezerker.
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  12. #432
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    Cool

    i think the whole frenzy think has brought back the old spirit of the barb, by making it a tactcal choice of when to rage, instead of walking around constantly pis$ed off all the time. The crit range 2 thing, was just a lazy way of making barb dps better by having okay base damage, but critting all the time, thus relying on crits as constant dps, back to (now with FB) having good base dps, and when you crit, it rocks, but not molesting the natural threat range of a weapon, and calling yourself a barb.

    Its just a better theme, imo, of a barbarian.

    Like the traditional theme of a barbarian grabbing whatever he can to anihilate something, wheither it be a small tree stump, his fists, a tool in the village such as an ax, or something crude he made. Not a fine pointed masterfully crafted light gentelmans sport sword. Besides, its h4x as it is, being able to power attack with a fineseable weapon (or whatever the rule about that is going against) and having it stack with keen or improved crit lulz.
    Last edited by Maegin; 01-05-2009 at 06:57 PM.
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  13. #433
    Community Member Junts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    You respec a lot? Huh.
    I respec pretty regularly; especially having human stat enhancements (ie flexible), there's even more incentive to respec stat enhancements out (or into other stats) when acquiring a +3 tome or, in the case of mod9, an increase in level. having enhancement points make your stats odd is a waste of them, since almost no class doesn't have something else they can get for 4 or 6 ap. enhancements are so tight for my pally that i switch them around pretty regularly to try and find the best combinations; both humans and pallys are ap-eaters, so there's probably 15-20 ap worth of enhancements i would really, really like to have and simply cant afford- and another 15-20 coming with mod9, too.

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raegoul View Post
    The 19-20 Crit-range says make a Mineral II greataxe cause that is all you need and the only way to be a real Barbarian. Please let us broaden the use/options for martial weapons that a Barbarian is proficient in from first level.
    Your evaluation is incorrect.

    The extra multiplier on 19-20 crits has no bias towards or against any kind of weapon. Whatever weapon is best for you without that aspect of the enhancement will still be the best after you train it. On the contrary, the current Critical Rage II enhancement has a strong bias towards Greataxes over every other kind of two handed weapon.

    The only way that Frenzied Berserker is biased towards one weapon or another is that it adds strength and Vicious weapon damage, which does more DPS if you're using a weapon with more swings-per-minute.

  15. #435
    Community Member Gunga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Junts View Post
    I respec pretty regularly; especially having human stat enhancements (ie flexible), there's even more incentive to respec stat enhancements out (or into other stats) when acquiring a +3 tome or, in the case of mod9, an increase in level. having enhancement points make your stats odd is a waste of them, since almost no class doesn't have something else they can get for 4 or 6 ap. enhancements are so tight for my pally that i switch them around pretty regularly to try and find the best combinations; both humans and pallys are ap-eaters, so there's probably 15-20 ap worth of enhancements i would really, really like to have and simply cant afford- and another 15-20 coming with mod9, too.
    This is a Barbarian thread. Respec your barb a lot, huh? I'm more of a set it and forget it guy, which will work out for my IRCII now and forever build.

  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angelus_dead View Post
    Your evaluation is incorrect.

    The extra multiplier on 19-20 crits has no bias towards or against any kind of weapon. Whatever weapon is best for you without that aspect of the enhancement will still be the best after you train it. On the contrary, the current Critical Rage II enhancement has a strong bias towards Greataxes over every other kind of two handed weapon.

    The only way that Frenzied Berserker is biased towards one weapon or another is that it adds strength and Vicious weapon damage, which does more DPS if you're using a weapon with more swings-per-minute.
    Thanks for picking on the details i did not bother to mention ie swings per minute.

    I am aware of those other factors but i was focussing on the Crit 19-20 part of the enhancement as an issue. It would make other weapons like the Falcion and Greatsword more attractive if their Crit ranges were not limited in any way.

    Am i frustrated by the swing slowness issues yes but that does not seem to be an issue for the Devs. I am talking in a thread related to the Frenzied Beserker and its enhancement line. My evaluation is perfectly correct because of the very issue you ignored that i had already raised.

    So the two things that i am concerned about in relationship with each other are the 19-20 Crit benefit and the range of weapons that have different Crit. ranges. Please do not ignore the substance of what i was trying highlight as a possible issue.
    Last edited by Raegoul; 01-05-2009 at 10:13 PM.
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  17. #437
    Community Member Thorzian's Avatar
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    ive been away working for a while and just saw this... and i, for one, dig it. imagine.. a barbarian designed to do damage, with a lot of hit points supporting the frenzy. lose the grandfather option please turbine and force the wop rapier barb disgraces to reroll! honestly. ive said it in these pages enough times. if a game mechanic is abused, the devs will nerf it. (though why the crit rage and not the puncturing?) first fw, bb, and cc scrolls, then others, then toughness(for the whiners), then a shroud shutdown, now crit rage. keep abusing losers!!

  18. #438
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunga View Post
    This is a Barbarian thread. Respec your barb a lot, huh? I'm more of a set it and forget it guy, which will work out for my IRCII now and forever build.
    What happens when you finally get a +4 CON tome? (assuming you have a +3 now)?

    or a +4 Dex tome if you're a elf, drow, or halfling barbarian?

    Or a +4 STR tome if you're human?

    New tomes are the biggest reason for me to respec enhancements.

  19. #439
    Community Member Thrudh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maegin View Post
    i think the whole frenzy think has brought back the old spirit of the barb, by making it a tactcal choice of when to rage, instead of walking around constantly pis$ed off all the time. The crit range 2 thing, was just a lazy way of making barb dps better by having okay base damage, but critting all the time, thus relying on crits as constant dps, back to (now with FB) having good base dps, and when you crit, it rocks, but not molesting the natural threat range of a weapon, and calling yourself a barb.

    Its just a better theme, imo, of a barbarian.
    Agreed... Of course, I'm biased since my barbarian started with a crappy dex, and was never able to respec into TWF... But I'm glad my big axe swinging barbarian will be useful again.

  20. #440
    Community Member Mhykke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorzian View Post
    ive been away working for a while and just saw this... and i, for one, dig it. imagine.. a barbarian designed to do damage, with a lot of hit points supporting the frenzy. lose the grandfather option please turbine and force the wop rapier barb disgraces to reroll! honestly. ive said it in these pages enough times. if a game mechanic is abused, the devs will nerf it. (though why the crit rage and not the puncturing?) first fw, bb, and cc scrolls, then others, then toughness(for the whiners), then a shroud shutdown, now crit rage. keep abusing losers!!
    So in the case of barb crit range, someone taking barb crit range, a rule in place for a long time, is, according to you, abusing the rules?
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