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  1. #1
    Founder Gol's Avatar
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    Default Monk Multiclassing Analysis & Breakdown

    This thread is dedicated to the "splashing" of other classes on a primarily Monk build. Just to make things clear(er), I'm going to arbitrarily say that in order to qualify for this, the build must be at least half Monk levels by the time you hit level 6 and forever there after. I'm trying to focus on what other classes have to offer a Monk build, not what the Monk class has to offer other builds.

    Of course, at the time of this posting being a couple weeks before "Monk week", we have to operate on some assumptions about what the Monk class will have. I'm going off my 3.5 Player's Handbook for now as it's the best source available. That said, what I'd like to do here is go over every class that you could multiclass with a Monk. I want to start with a review of what the Monk does get in PnP so that we know where we're coming from.

    Monk level - benefit (effects are cumulative, not stacking)
    1 - Bonus Feat, Flurry* @ -2 Attack
    2 - Bonus Feat, Evasion
    3 - Still Mind*, speed increase*
    4 - Ki strike (magic), increased Unarmed damage
    5 - Purity of Body*, Flurry @ -1 Attack, +1 AC
    6 - Bonus Feat, speed increase
    7 - Wholeness of Body*
    8 - increased Unarmed damage
    9 - Improved Evasion, speed increase, Flurry @ no penalty
    10 - Ki strike (lawful), +2 AC
    11 - Diamond Body*, Greater Flurry*
    12 - Abundant Step*, increased unarmed damage, speed increase
    13 - Diamond Soul
    14 -
    15 - Quivering Palm*, +3 AC, speed increase
    16 - Ki strike (adamantine), increased unarmed damage

    Other Info
    Alignment: any lawful
    Hit Die: d8
    Skill Points: 4 + Int mod
    Skill List: Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Spot, Swim, and Tumble
    Saves: Good/Good/Good (the only class that has such)
    BAB: 3/4 (same as Rogue/Cleric/Bard)

    Analysis
    Level 16 is kinda blah. Not giving up much to do 1 level of M/C.
    Level 15 is quite the level. Make sure you're getting a lot of your M/C to give this stuff up.
    Level 14 is the only useless Monk level on the chart (although 18 is pretty bad too, but I stopped at 16). If you give up 2 Monk levels, seriously consider giving up the third if you can get something worth it. You'll still hit 15 with the next level cap raise if you do.
    Level 13 is some big Spell Resistance. For non-Drow, it should be hard to give up. Minimum SR 23 (higher with each monk level) is useful.

    Level 12 and down are all some of the "basic" Monk stuff. You're losing your Monk-ness if you M/C yourself out of these. If you're giving up more than 4 levels of Monk, you might consider "splashing" monk into the other class instead.

    As for the Bonus Feats, these are something we're going to have to "wait and see" about. Each "Bonus Feat" on the Monk chart is really just an option where you get to pick from 1 of 2 feats. However, of the 3 feats * 2 options each = 6 feats that comprise these lists, NONE of them made it to DDO. I personally expect to see feats such as Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mobility, and Spring Attack show up either on the lists or in place of the selection entirely.


    Barbarian
    Due to a Monk's "any lawful" alignment requirement and the Barbarian's "any non-lawful", a Monk cannot multiclass with Barbarian.

    Bard
    Due to a Monk's "any lawful" alignment requirement and the Bard's "any non-lawful", a Monk cannot multiclass with Bard.

    Cleric
    The cleric class in general is not a popular choice to multiclass to. It offers borderline useless spell points and buffs in the endgame scenario, and wand usage is generally better achieved on a combat class through Paladin or Ranger. If you're willing to invest more than 1 or 2 levels, buffs can get useful, but the best Cleric buff in the books, Divine Power, you wouldn't get until level 7 Cleric. That's a little more multiclassing than I'd be willing to bite off.

    Fighter
    For a melee fighting character, Fighter feats are always good. With 2 levels you get the +1 str enhancement too. Not a bad deal. The martial weapon proficies are a plus, too (though not as much for Elves).

    Paladin
    I'm guessing Paladin is going to be the single most popular Monk multiclass in DDO. By giving up 3 levels of Monk, you get Cha to Saves, martial weapon proficiencies, healing wand usage, +2 AC, +2 saves, and Fear Immunity. A 1 level dip here is also a good option if you want to preserve Quivering Palm.

    Ranger
    The second most popular Monk multiclass. 2 levels of Ranger has a lot to offer. Dex class enhancements, healing wand usage without the "good" alignment requirement, 2 good base saves, Two Weapon Fighting (stacks with Flurry), Strength bonus to bow damage, and martial weapons proficiency. Not a bad one-level investment either if you want to keep Quivering Palm.

    Rogue
    Aside from UMD, I don't really see any reason to take Rogue levels unless you want to be a trapsmith. And at 4+ skill points per level with no skill synergy, it's like doing trapsmithing on a Barbarian. Intelligence is usually a dump stat on a Monk due to their need for good Str, Dex, Con, and Wis.

    Sorcerer
    I personally don't see much any value multiclassing to Sorcerer. Like intelligence, Cha is usually a dump stat on a Monk.

    Wizard
    Wizard has a significantly greater appeal to me than Sorcerer. Extend becomes a freebie, and 1 level of wizard gets you 2 minute shield spells for a free +4 AC. Monks can't use real shields so this bonus will always stack. Only downside it that it's dispellable. 3 levels of wizard gets you 6 minute Shield and Blur buffs. For an AC/Dex based monk, this is certainly a viable option.



    Glossary
    *Flurry - when unarmed or using monk weapons, allows the Monk an extra attack.
    *Still Mind - +2 saving throws vs enchantments
    *Speed increase - A set increase in PnP that doesn't translate well to DDO. Each increase is the same diffence as Barbarian non-boosted speed increase.
    *Purity of Body - Immune to all non-magical and non-supernatural diseases
    *Wholeness of Body - Similar to a paladin's Lay on Hands, just not quite as good.
    *Diamond Body - Immune to all poisons
    *Greater Flurry - when unarmed or using monk weapons, the Monk's Flurry grants a second extra attack
    *Abundant Step - similar to Dimension Door. See this post for Eladrin's comment on it.
    *Diamond Soul - Spell Resistance 10 + Monk Level
    *Quivering Palm - I dare not speculate how this will translate to DDO. Essenstially, a save-or-die melee attack (Will save based).

  2. #2
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    No can do... the "must only advance as a monk after so and so level" thing.

    Pally had same restriction (if memory serves) and they tossed that out....sooooooooooooo
    monk(ey) in the same boat. :-P

    also a note (if memory serves)
    hand to hand basic damage dice type depended on race think human was 1d6, halfling 1d4...not sure on the rest
    also the H2H damage dice type improved with lvls...not just the +to hit
    Last edited by fatherpirate; 05-16-2008 at 07:33 PM.
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  3. #3
    Founder Gol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    No can do... the "must only advance as a monk after so and so level" thing.

    Pally had same restriction (if memory serves) and they tossed that out....sooooooooooooo
    monk(ey) in the same boat. :-P
    Had I posted anything about that, I'd get your point. But, after having come to the same conclusion that it would be tossed out, I chose not to even mention it in my post

  4. #4
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Just noticed the 'quivering palm' note...good question !

    If I remember, QP was a once a week ability...kinda a save or die thing...here is the kick in the head

    cause death abilities at high lvl are.....drumroll.....useless !
    just about everything is either immune to it or only fails save on a roll of 1

    if it were me, I would make it something like ...1/rest, IF IT HITS cost the monk half his/her current hp and in turn
    does double that in KI damage

    then a fully heathy monk can lay down a monster one...but it hurts
    a nearly dead monk can't effectively pull one off

    just a suggestion
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  5. #5
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    I dont know where you get the impression that Flurry of Blows "stacks" with Two Weapon Fighting. It sepcifically says in the 3.5 PHB that flurry of blows is another form of fighting that uses the entire body: both hands, feet, head, etc. You can Flurry of Blows with a pair of monk weapons with no penalties, i.e. two kamas. (edit: no penalties other than the -2 FOB penalties of course)

    FoB = TWF for all statistical intents and purposes.
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  6. #6
    Founder Gol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaden View Post
    FoB = TWF for all statistical intents and purposes.
    Rules Lawyers and Customer Service Reps at Wizards of the Coast (I've personally emailed them to confirm a number of years ago) unanimously agree that TWF stacks with FoB when determining the number of attacks per round. I understand your argument logically, just saying that the special abilities and feats as worded in the PHB are not exclusive. As of a year ago when I quit playing PnP, no errata had been published to the contrary, either.

    Granted, that could all change depending on how Turbine implements it, but that's the way the rules stand today.

  7. #7

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    I think it will be much more common to splash monk into something else than splashing something else into monk. I think your likely suspects are pretty good though.

    You sell short rogue a bit. Monk has diplomacy as a class skill and the extra sneak attack damage from a handfull of rogue levels could really impact your DPS, and also monks get 4 skill points making them tollerable classes to splahs rogue for full trap skills. The only down side is monk stats and rogue stats are mostly different. So you would almost have to be finesse and go for agro mitigation so you could soften con and lower strength. I'm not sure its a good build but if you want monk and traps it can work. 1 / 3 / 6 would be the likely break points for the rogue levels to splahs depending on your goals.

    We shall see for sure but I'd wager dollars to doghnuts that two handed fighting and monk unarmed combat will not work together in any way even though you can do that in PnP.
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  8. #8
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaden View Post
    I dont know where you get the impression that Flurry of Blows "stacks" with Two Weapon Fighting. It sepcifically says in the 3.5 PHB that flurry of blows is another form of fighting that uses the entire body: both hands, feet, head, etc. You can Flurry of Blows with a pair of monk weapons with no penalties, i.e. two kamas. (edit: no penalties other than the -2 FOB penalties of course)

    FoB = TWF for all statistical intents and purposes.
    Are you correct according to D+D 3.5 absolutely !
    Can that be easily coded in DDO Probably ...no :-/

    They might take a compromise to get it game functional

    something like...improved attack speed when armed with light or no weapons at -2 to hit (-1 or -0 if you use a few monk
    based rank goodies to reduce the penalty) enhancments ?

    the code problem will prob be determining what counts or doesn't count as a monk weapon..what if they are mixed
    weapons ect.. just easier to say light weapons.
    Last edited by fatherpirate; 05-16-2008 at 08:04 PM.
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  9. #9
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    I think it will be much more common to splash monk into something else than splashing something else into monk. I think your likely suspects are pretty good though.

    You sell short rogue a bit. Monk has diplomacy as a class skill and the extra sneak attack damage from a handfull of rogue levels could really impact your DPS, and also monks get 4 skill points making them tollerable classes to splahs rogue for full trap skills. The only down side is monk stats and rogue stats are mostly different. So you would almost have to be finesse and go for agro mitigation so you could soften con and lower strength. I'm not sure its a good build but if you want monk and traps it can work. 1 / 3 / 6 would be the likely break points for the rogue levels to splahs depending on your goals.

    We shall see for sure but I'd wager dollars to doghnuts that two handed fighting and monk unarmed combat will not work together in any way even though you can do that in PnP.
    yes/no

    I don't see 2 handed fighting counting......except if the monk has fighter levels...and fighter specialized weapon <fist>

    If a monk toon is willing to burn several levels of monk for fighter and give up a few high end monk abilities later.....sure
    give them the fists that hurt like hell...they paid for them.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaden View Post
    FoB = TWF for all statistical intents and purposes.
    In WOTC's faq they explain how you use them in conjunction. You take the TWF penalties and can make an additiona (or more depending on feats) off hand attack that follows the off hand rules (aka half str, penalties for non light weapons etc). It can be anything, including a non monk weapon and actualy held anywhere you like. The other attacks are all flurry attacks and essentialy are all main hand attacks with full damage and what not (that is what the "no off hand" part of the descritpion of flurry means).

    The great thing about monks is you can head but or kick or whatever for your unarmed attacks.
    In the PnP game I'm playing I have a Monk 3 Rogue 3 Fighter 3 who has improved TWF. Its interesting sometimes trying to figure out what is optimal... straight flurry, flurry + TWF, Straight TWF. I can do wierd stuff like fight wtih a glaive as a main hand weapon and then kick as my off hand (due to improved unarmed from monk). Or I can hold a trip weapon off hand and to a flurry with my feat with off hand trip attacks, and hold a sandwitch in my main hand. :P

    I don't think you can do any of that in DDO
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  11. #11

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    My guess is monks will get the benefits of the TWF feats while wielding monk weapons or while unarmed and that's it. Probably comes free at different levels like with ranger.
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  12. #12
    Founder Gol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    My guess is monks will get the benefits of the TWF feats while wielding monk weapons or while unarmed and that's it. Probably comes free at different levels like with ranger.
    Guessing aside, I certainly hope not. That'd be quite a nerf. A Tempest Monk with a pair of WoP Sais should rip things apart at unreal speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    Level 13 is some big Spell Resistance. For non-Drow, it should be hard to give up. Minimum SR 23 (higher with each monk level) is useful.
    Drow race is a nonfactor for SR, as it only goes up to 20. SR as a high-level class feature is not highly attractive anyhow, because most of the time a cleric will blast Mass SR on everyone, giving superior protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    Each "Bonus Feat" on the Monk chart is really just an option where you get to pick from 1 of 2 feats. However, of the 3 feats * 2 options each = 6 feats that comprise these lists, NONE of them made it to DDO. I personally expect to see feats such as Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mobility, and Spring Attack show up either on the lists or in place of the selection entirely.
    DDO is starting from the OA monk feat lists. That contains: Power Attack, Fists of Iron, Imp Sunder, Eagle Claw, Roundabout Kick, CE, Choke Hold, Earth's Embrace, Imp Disarm, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Grappling Block, Flying Kick, Great Throw, Prone Attack, Pain Touch, Iron Will, Blind Fight, Freezing the Lifeblood, and Falling Star Strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    For a melee fighting character, Fighter feats are always good. With 2 levels you get the +1 str enhancement too. Not a bad deal. The martial weapon proficies are a plus, too (though not as much for Elves).
    It appears that losing flurry will make martial weapon proficiency almost entirely useless to monks. Note that the Eberron setting allows monks to spend a feat to get flurry with longswords- I see only a low chance DDO will adopt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    I'm guessing Paladin is going to be the single most popular Monk multiclass in DDO. By giving up 3 levels of Monk, you get Cha to Saves, martial weapon proficiencies, healing wand usage, +2 AC, +2 saves, and Fear Immunity. A 1 level dip here is also a good option if you want to preserve Quivering Palm.
    However, monks won't like needing to boost charisma to actually use that save benefit- they're already stretched between str, dex, con, and wis. And since the class already has good progression of all three saves, there is less need for it. The innate SR makes saves even less needed. The high monk saving throws also devalue the immunities to disease and fear. Plus the AC and save won't help whenever a real paladin (or splash pally) is around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    2 levels of Ranger has a lot to offer. Dex class enhancements, healing wand usage without the "good" alignment requirement, 2 good base saves, Two Weapon Fighting (stacks with Flurry), Strength bonus to bow damage, and martial weapons proficiency.
    It is very unlikely TWF will stack with flurry. And monks aren't likely to care about bow damage or other martial weapons, especially if they are allowed to flurry with shurikens (which by the rules should be possible).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    Aside from UMD, I don't really see any reason to take Rogue levels unless you want to be a trapsmith. And at 4+ skill points per level with no skill synergy, it's like doing trapsmithing on a Barbarian. Intelligence is usually a dump stat on a Monk due to their need for good Str, Dex, Con, and Wis.
    I predict rog1 will be the most popular monk splash, and I don't think it will be for traps. UMD is a great skill, as it gives wand usage that is eventually superior to what you'd get from paladin or ranger. Unlike splashing a divine caster for wand usage, UMD healers actually scale up to be meaningful at level 15+ when they switch to scrolls.

    Aside from that, rog1 gives the most general-purpose DPS boost you can get from any one level. 1d6+3 sneak attack damage is possibly more useful to a monk than any other class, because the Flurry effect allows you to apply the damage at a high rate. And DDO's monks get a stance to reduce their melee threat percentage, extending the time they can continue sneak attacking. Then there's also the Rogue Haste Boost 15% enhancement, which is the most burst DPS you can buy with 1 AP. (It might not be applicable if monks get Haste Boost of their own)

    Continuing to rog2 might be desirable if monks don't get their own dex enhancement line (that could be an AC boost, and unlike paladin levels it'll still work with a real paladin nearby).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    I personally don't see much any value multiclassing to Sorcerer. Like intelligence, Cha is usually a dump stat on a Monk.
    Note that in D&D the monk/sorc multiclass is supported by the Ascetic Mage feat, which allows you to replace wisdom with charisma for AC purposes, to add sorc levels to monk for AC purposes, and to burn spell slots to buff your unarmed damage. And of course the Enlightened Fist PrC allows you to advance arcane casting and unarmed damage at once.

    But obviously, DDO has hardly included any explicit support for the D&D rules that improve combinations of non-synergistic classes, so it's unlikely that such feats or enhancements will be part of DDO's monk release.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gol View Post
    Extend becomes a freebie, and 1 level of wizard gets you 2 minute shield spells for a free +4 AC. Monks can't use real shields so this bonus will always stack. Only downside it that it's dispellable. 3 levels of wizard gets you 6 minute Shield and Blur buffs.
    Rog1 would let you use 10-minute Shield wands, and have numerous other benefits.

  14. #14
    Community Member Gorbadoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Or I can hold a trip weapon off hand and to a flurry with my feat with off hand trip attacks, and hold a sandwitch in my main hand. :P

    I don't think you can do any of that in DDO
    Wow. I want that feature more than anything else-- more than I want a higher level cap, more than I want additional quests, and more than I want druids. And I am a huge fan of druids. You hear me, Turbine? Grant me a skill that is ostentatious in its desire to not make any sense whatsoever! Give me a skill that exists for the sole purpose of being flashy!

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    Just a thought on Wiz1 vs Sorc1 -> Extended Shield offers no mana savings, so Sorc1 will have more Shield minutes per rest, and they will cast faster in combat as well.

    The only benefit I would see for Wiz1 is that likely you are going to dump Cha, forcing you to equip an item to cast it. However, Int could be a likely dump candidate as well given the monk class skills. Oh, and some Halfling Dragonmark'd builds might want it for Maximize.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaden View Post
    I dont know where you get the impression that Flurry of Blows "stacks" with Two Weapon Fighting. It sepcifically says in the 3.5 PHB that flurry of blows is another form of fighting that uses the entire body: both hands, feet, head, etc. You can Flurry of Blows with a pair of monk weapons with no penalties, i.e. two kamas. (edit: no penalties other than the -2 FOB penalties of course)

    FoB = TWF for all statistical intents and purposes.
    3.5 FAQ says otherwise. I'll post it here for you
    Quote Originally Posted by 3.5 FAQ
    Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine
    a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her
    penalties on attack rolls?
    A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other
    character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
    attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand
    weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with
    a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but
    remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special
    monk weapons as part of the flurry).
    The penalties for twoweapon
    fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.
    For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally
    make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of
    blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any
    special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she
    wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to
    accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8
    D&D FAQ v.3.5 13 Update Version: 10/18/06
    penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light
    weapon in her off hand).
    If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only
    a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off
    hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand
    during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks,
    each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to
    be with her off-hand weapon.
    A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can
    make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows.
    Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three
    off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five
    attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any
    weapons she carries in her primary hand.
    If the same monk also
    has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her
    flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged
    attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her
    primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
    a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this:
    +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with
    shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.
    bolded and underlined the relevant portions.

    edit, just to clarify, I don't think FoB WILL stack with 2WF in DDO. I'm just pointing out that by the book it DOES.

    Also at first I was thinking perhaps FoB will be implemented as an attack speed buff like tempest, however I thought back to the Monk video from awhile back that showed the unarmed attack animations and there were 5 attacks. Which a monk's BAB wouldn't support normally so it stands to reason that FoB will offer additional attacks instead of an attack speed buff.
    Last edited by Dungnmaster001; 05-18-2008 at 02:22 AM.

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    Founder & Hero Uska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    No can do... the "must only advance as a monk after so and so level" thing.

    Pally had same restriction (if memory serves) and they tossed that out....sooooooooooooo
    monk(ey) in the same boat. :-P

    also a note (if memory serves)
    hand to hand basic damage dice type depended on race think human was 1d6, halfling 1d4...not sure on the rest
    also the H2H damage dice type improved with lvls...not just the +to hit
    Wrong they wont do that multiclass thing just like they didnt with paladins and halfling wont get penalized for size just like they dont with weapons.

    The ANTI-Realms FANBOI NUKE THE REALMS ITS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO BE SURE

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    I also disagree with the value of Rogue levels, I think the damage boost will be good, especially for dex based monks. I am planning on Monk 13/Rogue 3 Halfling. In Mod 7 that will net out to 2d6 + 11 sneak attack damage per swing(or kick).

    UMD and decent Rogue skills should make it a solid build. To me Paladin is a waste, every save turns out to be in the high 20's or more with decent gear.

    I would post the build but without knowing if TWF is going to stack, and the Monk enhancements it is pointless at this point to fully plan something out.

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    Community Member Depravity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatherpirate View Post
    cause death abilities at high lvl are.....drumroll.....useless !
    just about everything is either immune to it or only fails save on a roll of 1
    Maybe on elite, but shroud normal orthons are a little under 50% success with my wizzy's 30DC FoD. Bearded devils have poorer fort saves, and the trogs go squish just fine. Assuming you can get it in the high twenties to low thirties, death attacks work just fine. Combine it with abundant step or stealth, and that monk is going to show up out of nowhere and just plain kill opposing casters before they know what's happening. Unless it's staying as a will save, in which case the orthons don't have a chance and the casters will have to deal with a WotAII rogue.

  20. #20
    Community Member fatherpirate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depravity View Post
    Maybe on elite, but shroud normal orthons are a little under 50&#37; success with my wizzy's 30DC FoD. Bearded devils have poorer fort saves, and the trogs go squish just fine. Assuming you can get it in the high twenties to low thirties, death attacks work just fine. Combine it with abundant step or stealth, and that monk is going to show up out of nowhere and just plain kill opposing casters before they know what's happening. Unless it's staying as a will save, in which case the orthons don't have a chance and the casters will have to deal with a WotAII rogue.
    Don't forget, it is an attack, not an ability.
    Translation - Most death spells/ability are use it...save or die...with QP it is harder, activate QP and strike..if you miss..<<ding>> it is over, IF
    you hit then they get a save.

    In your defense though, I keep forgetting max level is 16..at 16th lvl death affects have some use..at
    higher levels its usefulness drops as the levels go up.

    as for FoB...I only see it as an attack speed increase. DDO is played on the fly...each round is not a measured thing like in PnP ..Joe what are you doing this round?...The stun has wore off, you
    can move next round...kinda thing. so, just increasing attack speed would be the easiest way to get FOB in
    Last edited by fatherpirate; 05-19-2008 at 05:33 AM.
    Halloween is dead on DDO.
    Kobalds stole it

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