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  1. #241
    Community Member Strumpoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticTheurge View Post
    Outside of DDO, there's no "switch" or "hidden panel" that disables traps either. DDO's "control box" is merely a user interface construct that allows for the targeting of something when using the disable device action.

    In D&D, disabling a device involves jamming, destroying or otherwise interfering with the mechanism as often as it involves "turning a switch off" (if not more often). And it's certainly not the case for magical traps which rogues can still disable. Do you suppose a Glyph of Warding or a Symbol of Death has an "off switch" that the rogue can just flip?

    Nope they don't, but then again a Symbol or Glyph, just sits there and lets the rogue study it, until he/she can figure out what makes it tick.

    It doesn't chase them around, breathing poision gas on them, or swinging 1000 pounds of stone, iron, or a giant greataxe at them...


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  2. #242
    Hatchery Founder
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strumpoo View Post
    Nope they don't, but then again a Symbol or Glyph, just sits there and lets the rogue study it, until he/she can figure out what makes it tick.

    It doesn't chase them around, breathing poision gas on them, or swinging 1000 pounds of stone, iron, or a giant greataxe at them...
    Which is easily enough represented by the current combat system, as well as the rogue specifically enhancing his ability to attack constructs while in those conditions.
    RedShirt / Roleplayer of Giant Slayers, Inc. on Thelanis, formerly Tharashk.
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  3. #243
    Founder binnsr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldin View Post
    Which is easily enough represented by the current combat system, as well as the rogue specifically enhancing his ability to attack constructs while in those conditions.
    I can see it now:

    Player1: I strike the golem with my adamantine shortsword and flip its 'off' button.
    GM: say what?
    -=]ArchAngels[=-

  4. #244
    Community Member Artagon's Avatar
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    Hmm... if I may do a calculation on using divine sacrifice.

    With a 'Holy Sword' (+5 holy burst longsword/kopesh) and 5 attacks per chain of.. about 6 seconds, aka. - round, a paladin's DPS = 21.25 with a 22 strength and Divine Favor, before calculating criticals.

    Now, with just the first level of Divine Sacrifice, you can use it 2x in an attack chain, for a new DPS of 27.08, which is an improvement of 27.4%

    again, with just the first Divine Sacrifice enhancement. I agree it doesn't compete with Ranger/Barbarian, but it IS a significant boost over CURRENT paladin DPS.

    I DO want to mention a pet peeve of mine while I'm here.. Folks continue to dismiss the paladin for not having AC as high as another class, or saving throws are not important, or whatever... ALMOST every single one of you dismiss the fact that the paladin boosts THE ENTIRE PARTY just by being nearby.. half of the extremely high AC's that people throw out take into account having a high level paladin nearby. Tell me a 50 ac tank is not going to be improved by adding an additional 5 ac THAT STACKS WITH EVERYTHING in general content. Or pushing up the rogue's reflex save from 32 to a 36 does nothing... Ask the cleric whether they appreciate my paladin being in the party.. Even if the party is slower (which is questionable) due to my being there, a cleric is almost gauranteed to spend 15% less SP on healing, which means an additional 15% mana to spend on party speeding things like Destruction, Banishment or Blade Barrier. Of course, this is if a party knows to hang out near the paladin.. hmm.. Maybe that's the point.. Nobody thinks to hang with the pally... Thus they don't see the advantage... *sigh* I apologize for putting this in the developement forum.. I hate rants in here... but dang...

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artagon View Post
    I DO want to mention a pet peeve of mine while I'm here.. Folks continue to dismiss the paladin for not having AC as high as another class, or saving throws are not important, or whatever... ALMOST every single one of you dismiss the fact that the paladin boosts THE ENTIRE PARTY just by being nearby.. half of the extremely high AC's that people throw out take into account having a high level paladin nearby.
    That's simply untrue, as it hinges on a false definition of "high level paladin".

    In DDO today, a pal12/rog2/fig2 gives exactly the same aura bonus as a pal16. Paladin levels beyond 11-12 do not improve that aspect of the character at all.

    In the future, pal15 will offer +1 AC aura above pal12. That's better than nothing, but is still very weak as an argument to keep taking levels in the class.

  6. #246
    Community Member Narwe's Avatar
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    Default Be careful what you wish for

    In the days when I played lots of pnp (and especially when our group switched to Dragonquest pnp and expanded the rules), any rule change had to be looked at from two perspectives: 1) what does it enable the players to do (ie does it overpower any class) 2) what does it allow the GM to do to the players!!

    There are quests in this game with sneaky mobs that suddenly hit the squishies from behind. Now they could be doing a deadly strike.

    Warforged characters may find themselves against rogues that can take them apart in short order. What a sight that would be!! "(Combat) you were deconstructed to a pile of wheels and gears"

    Regarding the problems with zerging tactics preventing sneaking around, just add in randomly placed deadly traps and they will slow down. Then the character in front will be a rogue or ranger with a high spot and evasion.

  7. #247
    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwe View Post
    Then the character in front will be a rogue or ranger with evasion.
    Fixed that. Don't really need the spot.
    Characters - Brion, Damerchant, Deathbot, Goode-, Minusten, Sepiriz, Spiritstrike, Stee, Steilh, Vorpaal, Wyllye, Yaga, Yagalicious, Yga. RIP - Catpizzle and Qazpe
    Beware My Gifts!!!

  8. #248
    Community Member gpk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artagon View Post
    Hmm... if I may do a calculation on using divine sacrifice.

    With a 'Holy Sword' (+5 holy burst longsword/kopesh) and 5 attacks per chain of.. about 6 seconds, aka. - round, a paladin's DPS = 21.25 with a 22 strength and Divine Favor, before calculating criticals.

    Now, with just the first level of Divine Sacrifice, you can use it 2x in an attack chain, for a new DPS of 27.08, which is an improvement of 27.4%

    again, with just the first Divine Sacrifice enhancement. I agree it doesn't compete with Ranger/Barbarian, but it IS a significant boost over CURRENT paladin DPS.
    Yes but you are forgetting a few things, among them the cost to self (let's assume a 6 sec cooldown):

    - For starters you should be comparing it to a +x greater bane weapon, a tier3 crafted weapon (mineral2 for instance, or better yet an easy to get holy pure good burst). A Holy Sword weapon is an inferior weapon for comparisons.

    -Compare it to Ram's Might, a made-up spell.

    -Compare it to the pally only Righteous Fury (+4 stacking STR bonus) from the same Spell Compendium, compare their ease of use, intended purpose and "love" factor.

    -Factor in the issues that plague a special attack swing, mob twitched outta the way, mob died, special swing didn't chain properly etc.
    You still end up with -10 HP - SP AND cooldown timer is triggered leading to a loss of a significant portion of your "DPS" .
    This is not a turn based game and special consideration to the real time nature of the game must be given.

    -Look at the damage ratio from PnP to DDO, it's virtually the same for the many more mobs with much more HP you will face.
    This makes no sense, other spells we're similarly adjusted to DDO standards, why not this one?
    The proper ratio would be somewhere along the lines of 6:1 and special consideration should be given to the special attack issues and self damage should be adjusted again.

    -Look at the intended use of the spell in PnP, it's not a spell designed for "easy fights", it's a desperate boss damaging spell.

    -Tie all damage from DS into the D6s, tying damage to crits is a mistake as it punishes different weapons and builds, and it reduces it's effectiveness vs different mobs (crit immune or fort item wearing). The +X crit multipliers are OK if thrown in as a bonus after all factors were taken into account OR if DS bypassed fortification and crit immunity.

    Really the best and easiest thing to do is to just replace this "spell" with Righetous Fury.

    Barring that it should be tweaked considerably: damage dealt/taken ratio adjust to over 6:1 and fix ALL special attack swings. If no attack roll was generated then the cooldown timer doesn't kick in and in the case of DS, no loss of HP or SP.

    Ideally there should also be a way of automating this, like a popup menu with an icon that you can drag to the toolbar, click the icon and it will chain DS on the 4th swing automatically, this can be a toggle or one click deal.
    Last edited by gpk; 04-17-2008 at 10:06 PM.

  9. #249
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    I just wanted to let you guys know that next week's WDA will be on Tuesday, due to the Massachusetts holiday.

  10. #250
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quarion View Post
    I just wanted to let you guys know that next week's WDA will be on Tuesday, due to the Massachusetts holiday.
    No holiday for you... get back on the treadmill.

    Rule 1: Don't sweat the small stuff
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    more rules to come in a different sig

  11. #251
    Founder Hvymetal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quarion View Post
    I just wanted to let you guys know that next week's WDA will be on Tuesday, due to the Massachusetts holiday.
    Boston Tea Party?
    R.I.P. E.G.G. 3/4/08

  12. #252
    Community Member Thraxes's Avatar
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    We understand it's hard work gimping all the rogues, and finding out new ways to nerf something that might help them.

  13. #253
    Founder & Hero jjflanigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxes View Post
    We understand it's hard work gimping all the rogues, and finding out new ways to nerf something that might help them.
    Dude...come out of the bitter barn and play in the hay.

  14. #254
    Community Member Turial's Avatar
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    So Q any chances you guys are going to spill the beans on the monks prior to launch such as feats, combat systems, enhancments etc?
    970 sp and counting
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  15. #255
    Community Member parvo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxes View Post
    We understand it's hard work gimping all the rogues, and finding out new ways to nerf something that might help them.
    Chuckle.
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  16. #256
    Community Member Pyromaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxes View Post
    We understand it's hard work gimping all the rogues, and finding out new ways to nerf something that might help them.
    QFT

  17. #257
    Community Member noneou's Avatar
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    Massachusetts holiday(tm) coming soon!

    Do we just eat lobsters and park our cars on Harvard yard?

  18. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quarion View Post
    I just wanted to let you guys know that next week's WDA will be on Tuesday, due to the Massachusetts holiday.
    Is it Patriot's Day already?
    Have a question about the Eberron Setting?
    Ask a Loremaster.

  19. #259
    Community Member captain1z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thraxes View Post
    We understand it's hard work gimping all the rogues, and finding out new ways to nerf something that might help them.
    As the saying goes "dont shoot the messenger"


    even though in many ancient cultures, it was common practice to take the head of the bearer of bad news.
    Ever bleed out in a thornbush? Welcome to UD14.

  20. #260
    Community Member axebender's Avatar
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    Talking

    well instead of tue why not do it friday?..would be great..

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