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  1. #21
    Founder Heladron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjflanigan View Post
    Well...one thing to keep in mind...I'm the one who put the solver up. The solver uses the exact same logic as the manual solving, it just takes it a step further to rationalize the solution to the simplest state. Before you start calling me a cheater and saying I need to rationalize using it because I can't do it manually, you should really know the person to whom you are speaking. Computers and software are there to make our lives easier, I write programs to do things that I don't want to do manually. It's not cheating, it's called being smart.
    Sorry, but I've never said you were incapable of solving the puzzle with your brain. I also never directed my opinions on cheating at any specific person, but at everyone who cheats in general. If the shoe fits...

    Writing software to automate work is not the same as writing software to automate winning. You've eliminated the possibility of failure in a game where the possibility of failure is designed in. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses that software to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. How is it different from aiming bots in FPS games? It's like saying, "I don't like aiming so I use an aiming bot" or "I'm not good at aiming so I use an aiming bot."

    I, too, write software for a living. The software I've written keeps everyones credit card number encrypted so if they fall into the wrong hands they won't be usable. My software has automated the testing of electrical circuits in hearing aids so that people with hearing problems can hear better, and with a large amount of certainty that it will be nearly a perfect match to their hearing loss. The software I've written has automated grading of tests at colleges around the country. I guess I can't say that I've ever written software to automate winning at a game.

    All solvers are more than likely a violation of rule 19 in the Dungeons and Dragons Online code of conduct.

    19. You may not create, post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine.
    Last edited by Heladron; 02-20-2008 at 10:39 AM. Reason: It's rule 19 not 18.
    Now there's a Reaver Puzzle Solver for your iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad available Get it HERE!

  2. #22
    Founder Heladron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblack View Post
    This is a useful thread. Please, let's keep it from becoming cube food.

    Ink
    I agree, however some of the posts are a violation of the cheating at the game rules where they said things like thou shalt not use aiming bots and the like. (Paraphrasing).

    Your post and eyepuppy's posts have given people a way to understand the puzzles without actually doing the work for them.
    Now there's a Reaver Puzzle Solver for your iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad available Get it HERE!

  3. #23
    Founder & Hero jjflanigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladron View Post
    Sorry, but I've never said you were incapable of solving the puzzle with your brain. I also never directed my opinions on cheating at any specific person, but at everyone who cheats in general. If the shoe fits...

    Writing software to automate work is not the same as writing software to automate winning. You've eliminated the possibility of failure in a game where the possibility of failure is designed in. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses that software to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. How is it different from aiming bots in FPS games? It's like saying, "I don't like aiming so I use an aiming bot" or "I'm not good at aiming so I use an aiming bot."
    How is using an automated solver ANY different than using the "Cheat sheets" provided in this thread? If you use the sheets, which you've stated is an ok and "non-cheating" thing to do...you've eliminated all chance of failure. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses the cheat sheets to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. It's like saying "I'm doing the exact same thing the software does, in the exact same pattern and have removed all chance of failure, but because I'm doing it myself, it's different" -- If you don't like using solvers, that's fine -- but there's no difference between using a "cheat sheet" solver and a software designed "solver"

    One *very important* fact that you gloss over -- you aren't "winning the game" you are bypassing a puzzle in the game. It has no impact on DDO itself whether or not you use the solver. Nice job making the personal attacks at me,though, by stating that your software is "more important" than what the software I write...especially when you have no idea what type of software I write for a living.

  4. #24
    Community Member bobbryan2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladron View Post
    Sorry, but I've never said you were incapable of solving the puzzle with your brain. I also never directed my opinions on cheating at any specific person, but at everyone who cheats in general. If the shoe fits...

    Writing software to automate work is not the same as writing software to automate winning. You've eliminated the possibility of failure in a game where the possibility of failure is designed in. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses that software to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. How is it different from aiming bots in FPS games? It's like saying, "I don't like aiming so I use an aiming bot" or "I'm not good at aiming so I use an aiming bot."

    I, too, write software for a living. The software I've written keeps everyones credit card number encrypted so if they fall into the wrong hands they won't be usable. My software has automated the testing of electrical circuits in hearing aids so that people with hearing problems can hear better, and with a large amount of certainty that it will be nearly a perfect match to their hearing loss. The software I've written has automated grading of tests at colleges around the country. I guess I can't say that I've ever written software to automate winning at a game.

    All solvers are more than likely a violation of rule 18 in the Dungeons and Dragons Online code of conduct.

    18. You may not create, post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine.
    Using cheat sheets and solver programs are functionally equivalent. I don't see how you can be for calculators but against graphing calculators.

  5. #25
    Founder Oreg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladron View Post
    If minimizing cheating by saying it's like using a calculator, this isn't real life, it's not a cheat program it's a "solver", or any other excuses make it easier on your conscience then go ahead and cheat. See if I care.

    Eyepuppy has done everyone a huge service by showing that there is an easy way that doesn't involve cheating/solving using a computer instead of your brain. And then responses like just use the "solver" come up and it minimizes peoples efforts who are trying to make peoples lives a bit easier without having to cheat. Eyepuppy is giving you all the tools to solve the puzzles and all you have to do is learn the rules and apply that knowledge.
    You seem pretty miffed by this so it must be affecting your gameplay that people are using them. Oh yeah - you are getting two extra chests. Wait....that makes you angry?.....huh?

    If it makes you feel any better (ie more superior) I have seen at least a dozen people in part 3 that couldn't solve it using the solver. They had to have people come help them. What do we do with them?

    Anyways, good thread up till the rant. I hope it stays open.

  6. #26
    Community Member Wizzly_Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladron View Post
    19. You may not create, post or distribute any utilities, emulators or other third party software tools without the express written permission of Turbine.
    hmm, reckon i better not use that character planner thing anymore then huh

  7. #27
    Founder Heladron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjflanigan View Post
    How is using an automated solver ANY different than using the "Cheat sheets" provided in this thread? If you use the sheets, which you've stated is an ok and "non-cheating" thing to do...you've eliminated all chance of failure. You've created an unfair advantage to allow yourself and anyone who uses the cheat sheets to succeed where you might otherwise have a chance of failure. It's like saying "I'm doing the exact same thing the software does, in the exact same pattern and have removed all chance of failure, but because I'm doing it myself, it's different" -- If you don't like using solvers, that's fine -- but there's no difference between using a "cheat sheet" solver and a software designed "solver"

    One *very important* fact that you gloss over -- you aren't "winning the game" you are bypassing a puzzle in the game. It has no impact on DDO itself whether or not you use the solver. Nice job making the personal attacks at me,though, by stating that your software is "more important" than what the software I write...especially when you have no idea what type of software I write for a living.
    The difference between using an algorithm that someone has taught you and using software to applying an algorithm you don't even comprehend is completely different.

    Okay, I'll concede that you aren't winning the game. Big Deal! If it makes you feel good then do it man. I'd like to see anybody use a "solver" in any casino in Vegas and find out what happens. Try convincing the casino that you aren't cheating. Just explain to them how smart you are for bypassing the losing combinations in the slot machine. Tell them how it makes life so much easier. Perhaps they won't take you for a tour of the Nevada desert and perhaps you'll only be banned from the casino. I bet you'd see things a lot differently when the stakes are much higher.

    People who don't cheat aren't more perfect or without any faults. This might not even be about morality, maybe it's just about having some pride in everything you do. If you take pride in using the solvers then great. I guess I just expect more and have higher expectations and want a good challenge even when I'm not equipped for it. If failing once in a while hurts that much then the link that jj posted is just right for you. Enjoy.
    Now there's a Reaver Puzzle Solver for your iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad available Get it HERE!

  8. #28
    Founder & Hero jjflanigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladron View Post
    The difference between using an algorithm that someone has taught you and using software to applying an algorithm you don't even comprehend is completely different.

    Okay, I'll concede that you aren't winning the game. Big Deal! If it makes you feel good then do it man. I'd like to see anybody use a "solver" in any casino in Vegas and find out what happens. Try convincing the casino that you aren't cheating. Just explain to them how smart you are for bypassing the losing combinations in the slot machine. Tell them how it makes life so much easier. Perhaps they won't take you for a tour of the Nevada desert and perhaps you'll only be banned from the casino. I bet you'd see things a lot differently when the stakes are much higher.

    People who don't cheat aren't more perfect or without any faults. This might not even be about morality, maybe it's just about having some pride in everything you do. If you take pride in using the solvers then great. I guess I just expect more and have higher expectations and want a good challenge even when I'm not equipped for it. If failing once in a while hurts that much then the link that jj posted is just right for you. Enjoy.
    I use a solver every time I go to a casino -- it's called counting cards. Same difference, it's using something to give yourself an unfair advantage. Either way, you've made up your mind that you are better because you don't use a solver and are tossing about backhanded insults, so there's no point in degrading this thread any further. There are multiple methods to solve the puzzles, use the one that you want to use and enjoy the game how you want to enjoy it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by willphase View Post
    Nice post!

    I'm definitely using this method from now on for the 4x4 - but I think for the other ones I'd probably stick to using my solver

    Garth
    You dont need the solver, this is easy. I posted the same thing right after my first raid back a few weeks ago, this looks like the same thread just put into the strategy guide.

    You have to turn all the lights on for the puzzle to work. Its real easy.

  10. #30
    Community Member Laith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbryan2 View Post
    Using cheat sheets and solver programs are functionally equivalent.
    Better not look at posted map, strategy, build, recipe, or static loot threads either.
    All sorts of unfair advantages to be gained on these here forums.

    Thanks for the thread eye. applied one for lights out i found a while back, and it worked pretty well.

    Ultimately though, i just don't like the game (lights out) all that much, so i use the solver. Didn't like it in Rest for the Restless or The Pit either, even when it was super-easy.
    I really like mastermind though... so i do that with my own algorithm every time.

    I LOVE that they keep putting puzzles in... but the fact is, every player isn't going to get and enjoy every puzzle in the game.
    Last edited by Laith; 02-20-2008 at 12:21 PM.

  11. #31
    Founder aldan's Avatar
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    Who out there has the time to learn all this garbage. I dont, I love when uber guilds finish first and give me the solves, saves me time and I like it. I enjoy the experience of the quest but dont need the satisfation of "being the first" to have a good time.

    Do whatever you do to have fun and ignore the rest.

  12. #32
    Community Member Mad_Bombardier's Avatar
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    Back on topic. These two typos still exist in the OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    You do have two minor errors.
    1) You say, "the 4x4 and 3x3 are a little different" right after you finish explaining the 4x4s "solved EVERY time."
    2) And you have a set of 6 lights in your example, "off, on, off, off, on, on." I'm pretty sure you just need to drop the last 'on'. Again, great explanation!

  13. #33
    Community Member liamfrancais's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladron View Post
    I'm diametrically opposed to using cheaters. There are many reasons for this.

    The reasons are as follows:
    1. Using a cheater is CHEATING. Cheat is in the name. How do you feel when someone is cheating you?
    2. They tend to feed entitlement mentality. AKA I deserve to win all the time and should never be defeated. There's no way to learn from your mistakes if the cheater isn't allowing you to make mistakes.
    3. They make you dependent. What will you do if someone hacks the cheat website and it's not there?
    4. Cheaters will make your brain mushy and will likely lead to Alzheimers.*
    5. There is no sense of adventure and therefore the victory is hollow. Whoo hoo! A computer solved the problem for you and you got some pretend stuff. Nice job.
    6. If you were in any kind of modern competition you would be disqualified immediately.
    7. You'll grow hair on your palms or go blind. Possibly both.


    * = I made that up, but some studies have shown that having many neuro-pathways may prevent Alzheimers. When not solving puzzles and thinking you are not forming new neuro-pathways.
    Thats correct but using it to practice is good, that way the pretty wall don't get you, that was a really nice touch by the way.
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  14. #34
    Community Member eyepuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    Back on topic. These two typos still exist in the OP.
    Bah, I fixed them. In my defense though, the second that was not really a typo. I was merely saying that the 4x4 and 3x3 puzzles were similar to solve. That was true and it makes sense to say after I posted how to solve the 4x4 puzzle so people could make a connection with the 3x3.

    Anyway, back on to the "solver" debate. I don't like solvers myself. I use this method, but I figured out the method and solution (well most of it). This is the same method I used to solve these puzzles when my mother gave me my first lights out game when I was almost 10. I only found 4 of the 5x5 combinations. There are somewhere around 30 combinations of lights that could be left on the bottom row, so I started down the line and figured out which combinations worked with what light sets. It took forever (I was doing it on paper during analog class!). After I found 4 of them, I went online to see if anyone else had an algorithm that would solve lights out like this. I was fortunate to fine that there were many other sources of people that had the same solution. I was also happy to learn that there were only 3 more possibilities for solutions. The 3x3 puzzles I had to find on my own. This leaves you with 7 solutions for 5x5 and 7 solutions for 3x3.

    Now, calling this a solver is I guess true in a sense. I fell that people using this method will at least be using their brain more than if they are using the solver. If I posted the algorithm and just told people to hit random spaces on the top row, most people would just give up and use the solver. When people actually use this method, they will begin to see patterns and understand how the puzzle works. I hope so at least!

    In my opinion, if you use this method without using the cheat sheet, then it's not a solver. Once you use the cheat sheet though, it becomes a solver. I would still prefer people to use this method because you are at least using your brain more than pressing on random spots.

    As a side note: Sorry if anyone already posted this. I don't check the forums much. This is probably only my 4th post ever! I checked to see if their was a guide in the user guide section. I didn't see one off hand so I posted one. Sorry for any double posting, but this should have been where you put it so people could fine it
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  15. #35
    Community Member Caelan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heladron View Post

    * = I made that up, but some studies have shown that having many neuro-pathways may prevent Alzheimers. When not solving puzzles and thinking you are not forming new neuro-pathways.
    this is slightly incorrect. you do not, generally, create new neuro-pathways as an adult. (yes, there are some traumatic circumstances where this has happened, but it does not happen as you describe.) BUT, practicing puzzles will help you keep the neuro-pathways you already have. as infants we create millions and millions of them. as we grow, our brain decides which ones to preserve based on usage. the more and longer you use them, the more and longer you will keep them, and the less likely you are to develop ailments such as Alzheimers.
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  16. #36
    Founder & Hero jjflanigan's Avatar
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    Regardless of how people feel about this, I have updated the solver to include logic for 1-pass solving the circle puzzle. The logic should be sound and has worked on all my tests, but let me know if you have any issues


    http://perfectweb.org/ddo/solver/vale_puzzle.html

  17. #37
    Founder Aesop's Avatar
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    ok the 4x4 puzle is pretty easy

    Circle is just repetative

    3x3 I'm ok on though I'm missinga little something that would make my mind wrap around it a little faster

    5x5 is where I need a little help. How do you figure out the pattern without the cheat sheet. I'd like to be able to do this from sight and not alt+tab



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  18. #38
    Founder Grond's Avatar
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    Nice work eyepuppy!

    For the round puzzle, I try to get the smallest number of lit lights adjacent to each other, ending up with 0, 1, or 2. If it's 2, one up from either side of the two and you're done. If it's 1, hit one beside the lit one and solve as for two. If none, then hit all 8.

    The nice thing about this pattern working from the top down is you don't have to worry about accidentally bumping parts you've already worked on, since you don't need to jump across them. It's also alot easier to talk someone through it when you're standing on the other side of a forcefield.
    Last edited by Grond; 02-22-2008 at 03:54 PM.
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  19. #39

    Talking Confession

    I have a confession to make...

    I can't solve puzzles...

    I can't even do the simple little ones like in goodblades for goodness sakes...

    They look like geometry and calculus and stuff like that and it makes my brain hurt and my eyes cross...

    So being as I love Stormreach, I am massively all kinds of glad some of you love puzzles...and can figure them out... and then help me learn them...

    Hey you can still be an honor student and hate math if you get a tutor...

    So thanks for tutoring me in Stormreach puzzles 102.

    See ya in Stormreach,

    -R

  20. #40
    Community Member trptim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjflanigan View Post
    Regardless of how people feel about this, I have updated the solver to include logic for 1-pass solving the circle puzzle. The logic should be sound and has worked on all my tests, but let me know if you have any issues


    http://perfectweb.org/ddo/solver/vale_puzzle.html
    Graphical Glitch
    If you click on a square outside the circle, it will start filling in other lights, up to a 4x4 square, even though the tests and functionality of the circle remain.

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