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  1. #1
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Default Barb Critical Rage rebalancing

    It's not a matter of debate that Barbs in the current game are pretty much untouchable by the other melees in terms of DPS.

    Although some of this is down to the pnp core rules (which I'm a huge fan of), the Enhancement system has taken this advantage and grossly intensified it to the point that Barbs have become overpowered.

    Although Extended Rage and Power Rage all play their parts, the thing I have the most trouble with (and which I see as being the main cause of the unbalance between the other melees) is Critical Rage (+2 to crit range, stacks with everything).

    To restore balance I'd suggest one of the three following changes -

    1. Drop it altogether - it has no place in PnP and is purely something conceived of by the Devs

    2. Remove it's ability to stack with the Imp Crit feat (so a Barb would still crit on 18-20 with a greataxe, making it superior to Imp Crit for them).

    3. Now this is far my favorite as it won't nerf barbs at all - drop Critical Rage, introduce the Barb's/Ftr's/Pally's/Ranger's Improved Critical I and II Enhancements.

    The Enhancement would add up to +2 to the critcal range for ALL the melee classes. Prereqs would be the Imp Crit feat (current levels for the Barb enhancements are 11 and 14 - keep these the same?)

    Barbs would be unaffected as the good ones spend the entire quest Raged anyway.

    The other melees get to compete a little.

    Any thoughts?

  2. #2

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    If you think that fighters cannot compete with Barabrians then you play with the wrong fighters.

    That being said, Paladins and Rangers should NOT have the same DPS as Fighters and Barbarians, and arguably fighters should have less than Barbarians (but not to the same degree as rangers and paladins).
    Clerics of Fernia
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  3. #3
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowdenicus View Post
    If you think that fighters cannot compete with Barabrians then you play with the wrong fighters.
    I have 32 STR, all the Wpn Spec feats, THF feats, Madstone Boots, Bloodstone, Rage pots etc (apart from a +3 tome and the Scourge Choker/Blood Rage item I can't possibly increase my DPS).

    The max damage I've seen on a crit from my SOS with STR at 36 is 162, crit range 15-20.

    Any Barbs out there who can't beat that?
    Last edited by Cold Stele; 12-05-2007 at 08:47 AM.

  4. #4
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    I agree with op the barb crit range thing is a little ridiculous.Especially when you factor in wound of punct.I'm not sure how to tone it down but believe it needs consideration.
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  5. #5
    Community Member DareDelvis's Avatar
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    A couple thoughts, some helpful, some not:

    I have played a barbarian since the game went retail...and there was a time when I could not compete DPS with fighters (remember +10 to hit action boost?)

    That changed and it became more balanced. I now have two pure barbarians, a TWF and the original THF. As a barbarian, my main job is DPS...the other fighter classes have other advantages and skills...I will not go so far as to say roles, as that will lead to the old cookie-cutter, etc debate. My barbs can't use wands or scrolls (sure some one may pump up umd, but that must come at the expense of some other stat and skill) or cast spells. My barbs cannot take multiple and varied feats; each "had" to pick a fighting style and use the limited feats to maximize that line.

    So, to me the crit rage is "fair." It is only, until the level cap increase, for those who go pure barb (at least crit rage II is). It allows the barbarian to do what it does best...deal damage.

    Now, a last point or question...what does it matter? When this game went live, it seemed clear that unless you had the to-hit AB even making contact with mobs on higher difficulties was hard...my early barb had power attack but could rarely use it on elite settings in difficult (level 10 quests). Then they changed the AC and HP of most of the monsters and got rid of that incarnation of the AB. The field appeared more even and all melee classes could contribute.

    Is the problem kill count? Any well played class should be able to contribute to a party's success, and, personally, that is what is important to me. Of course, people play for different reasons. One melee class is always going to have the potential to the most damage...this has changed over the past 21 months...and it might again.

    Now, maybe I am biased because I have two of these barbs, but any one is always welcome to roll any character...

    This crit rage does not seem to be effecting the balance of the game in any way...

    Anyway, have a great day.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Mercules's Avatar
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    Sooooo...

    Does anyone else remember the days of, "Why play a Barbarian because Fighters are so much more powerful? I blame the enhancements!"
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment."
    -Barry LePatner

  7. #7
    Community Member Shrazkil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Stele View Post
    It's not a matter of debate that Barbs in the current game are pretty much untouchable by the other melees in terms of DPS.

    Although some of this is down to the pnp core rules (which I'm a huge fan of), the Enhancement system has taken this advantage and grossly intensified it to the point that Barbs have become overpowered.

    Although Extended Rage and Power Rage all play their parts, the thing I have the most trouble with (and which I see as being the main cause of the unbalance between the other melees) is Critical Rage (+2 to crit range, stacks with everything).

    To restore balance I'd suggest one of the three following changes -

    1. Drop it altogether - it has no place in PnP and is purely something conceived of by the Devs

    2. Remove it's ability to stack with the Imp Crit feat (so a Barb would still crit on 18-20 with a greataxe, making it superior to Imp Crit for them).

    3. Now this is far my favorite as it won't nerf barbs at all - drop Critical Rage, introduce the Barb's/Ftr's/Pally's/Ranger's Improved Critical I and II Enhancements.

    The Enhancement would add up to +2 to the critcal range for ALL the melee classes. Prereqs would be the Imp Crit feat (current levels for the Barb enhancements are 11 and 14 - keep these the same?)

    Barbs would be unaffected as the good ones spend the entire quest Raged anyway.

    The other melees get to compete a little.

    Any thoughts?
    Option 3 is similar to an earlier suggestion i made. I think the other melee classes should get something to come close to this, but not equal to it.

    Fighter specialized crit I , Rangers Bow Crit I , Paladin Smiting critical I and II . ETC.

  8. #8

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    Fighters are still extreemly powerful, their power is in their diversity.

    While Barbarians can specialize in a moderatly high degree in one thing, fighters can specialize very high in multiple things.

    Barbs are good at one thing, DPS, thats about it, if you do not include all the HP's.

    Fighters have Tower shields, 3x the feats, fighter only feats, generally just as high to hit, and with boosts very comparable dps.

    There is a trade off.

    Offense ability vs. Defensive ability and many feats. not to say fighters can't be very offensive.
    Clerics of Fernia
    King of Stormreach
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  9. #9
    Community Member GHOSTRYDER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Stele View Post
    It's not a matter of debate that Barbs in the current game are pretty much untouchable by the other melees in terms of DPS.

    Although some of this is down to the pnp core rules (which I'm a huge fan of), the Enhancement system has taken this advantage and grossly intensified it to the point that Barbs have become overpowered.

    Although Extended Rage and Power Rage all play their parts, the thing I have the most trouble with (and which I see as being the main cause of the unbalance between the other melees) is Critical Rage (+2 to crit range, stacks with everything).

    To restore balance I'd suggest one of the three following changes -

    1. Drop it altogether - it has no place in PnP and is purely something conceived of by the Devs

    2. Remove it's ability to stack with the Imp Crit feat (so a Barb would still crit on 18-20 with a greataxe, making it superior to Imp Crit for them).

    3. Now this is far my favorite as it won't nerf barbs at all - drop Critical Rage, introduce the Barb's/Ftr's/Pally's/Ranger's Improved Critical I and II Enhancements.

    The Enhancement would add up to +2 to the critcal range for ALL the melee classes. Prereqs would be the Imp Crit feat (current levels for the Barb enhancements are 11 and 14 - keep these the same?)

    Barbs would be unaffected as the good ones spend the entire quest Raged anyway.

    The other melees get to compete a little.

    Any thoughts?
    make a barb

  10. #10
    Community Member Mad_Bombardier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Stele View Post
    Any thoughts?
    At the very least, Critical Rage I and II are too close together in level. It is too powerful an enhancement for L14. Make it tier I at L11 (as it is now) and tier II at L16.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by GHOSTRYDER View Post
    make a barb
    No.

    I want all the bonus feats of a fighter and the DPS of a barbarian.

    /vomit

    Nothing can be balanced anymore, I swear, everybody is just like me want me want......

    Either it is rangers wanting STWF for free, or fighters wanting barbarian enhancements.....
    Clerics of Fernia
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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    At the very least, Critical Rage I and II are too close together in level. It is too powerful an enhancement for L14. Make it tier I at L11 (as it is now) and tier II at L16.
    It is fine as is.
    Clerics of Fernia
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  13. #13
    Community Member Mad_Bombardier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cowdenicus View Post
    It is fine as is.
    Oh come now, Cow. You can't be serious. It's a huge damage boost on normal weapons. Add an expanded crit range weapon like Carnifex, SoS, or Deathnip and it's unreal. 13-20/x3! 15-20/x4! Those values should not be in the game.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    Oh come now, Cow. You can't be serious. It's a huge damage boost on normal weapons. Add an expanded crit range weapon like Carnifex, SoS, or Deathnip and it's unreal. 13-20/x3! 15-20/x4! Those values should not be in the game.
    Barbarians are a DPS class. That is what they do....., heck that is all they do.
    Clerics of Fernia
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  15. #15
    Community Member Porkchop's Avatar
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    Barbarians are a DPS class. That is what they do....., heck that is all they do.
    This whole thread is about competing for kill counts. Fighters, Paladins and Rangers are very versatile in what they can do. They should not be able to out-DPS a barbarian.

  16. #16
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    I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.
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  17. #17
    Community Member Porkchop's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.
    ROFL, It has been proven?

  18. #18

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    You do realize untill mod 3 most thought barbarians were underpowered compared to fighters/pallys right? The devs realized this and gave the barbarians some much needed love.

    Im sure you also realize the crit rage enhancments had a much lower lvl requirement when they came out on risia and have had their lvl requirements adjusted up already correct?

    Not to mention you say one possibility would be to raise the lvl required..and rank 2 of it is already 13...if it was raised to 14 it wouldnt change anything really.

    Money says you have a fighter or pally? I could list all the benefits fighters and pallys get but i wont go there. You recommend to give fighters/pallys an improved crit enhancment? That is always on?, not dependent on something like rage and to remove barb crit rage?

    Besides the fact that giving barbs crit rage makes more sence from a class standpoint, you always have the option to roll a barb. Im guessing in the next mod or 2 another melee class starts to stand out as the one everyone wants to play...but then people tend to like to do damage. If the melee classes are implemented correctly the barb should be that class...unless the rogues can get alot of sneak attacks/backstabs in

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by hennebux View Post
    I'm pretty sure I know barbarians who crit on a 14 or better...are you seriously considering that not to be vastly overpowered?Once again consider two wep fighting wounding of punc in action, which I have personally seen, and the effect is devestating.It has been proven out the best fighter can't even half the kills the barb gets.
    Funny, in my opinion a fighters job isnt to get kills..........

    Had you wanted to make a character that had the opprotunity to get a lot of kills, you would have made a Barbarian.
    Clerics of Fernia
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  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Porkchop View Post
    ROFL, It has been proven?
    Thank you. LOL.
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