Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 83
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default TWF Deadly Singer Build

    This is my current TWF Battle Bard (Updated for Mod9)

    Drow Neutral Spellsinger Bard 20

    Stats:
    Str 16 (28=16 +1 Level +3 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
    Dex 16 (26=16 +2 Tome +2 Enh. +6 Item)
    Con 12 (22=12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
    Int 10 10
    Wis 8 (16=8 +2 Tome +6 Item)
    Cha 16 (36=16 +4 Levels +3 Tome +3 Enh +6 Item +2 GS +2 Prodigy)

    Level Progression:
    1 thru 20-Bard

    Skills:
    UMD
    Perform
    Concentration
    Jump
    Balance
    Diplomacy
    Tumble (1)

    Feats:
    1-TWF
    3-Mental Toughness
    6-Toughness
    9-ITWF
    12-IC Piercing
    15-GTWF
    18-Power Attack

    HP:
    120(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +30(GFL) +120(Con) +22(Helm) +45(GreenSteel) +22(Tough) +20(Enh.)=409

    SP:
    525(20Bard) +377(Cha) +175(Wiz VII) +40(EOM) +100(Singer) +105(MT)=1322

    Enhancements:
    Bard Charisma III
    Bard Inspired Attack III
    Bard Lingering Song IV
    Bard Spell Penetration II
    Bard Inspired Damage III
    Bard Song Magic III
    Bard Spellsinger
    Bard Energy of Music II
    Bard Concentration II
    Bard Lyric of Song I
    Bard Musical Prodigy
    Drow Melee Damage II
    Drow Melee Attack II
    Drow Toughnesss II

    Spells:
    1-Exp. Retreat, Masters Touch, Grease, Focusing Chant
    2-Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Soundburst
    3-Fear, Displacement, Charm Monster, Haste
    4-Hold Monster, Ottos, Freedom of Movement, Cure Critical
    5-Mass Suggestion, Greater Heroism, Mind Fog, CLW Mass
    6-Gr. Shout, Ottos, Summon VI, Cure Mod Mass

    To Hit:
    BAB 20 (DP)
    Str 9
    Weapon 5
    Song 9
    Haste 1
    Racial 2
    Focusing Chant 1
    PA -5
    TWF -4
    +38

    Damage:
    Weapon 5
    Str 9
    Song 7
    Sneak(VOD) 8
    PA 5
    Racial 2
    +36/31

    Saves (Fort/Reflex/Will):
    Base: (6/12/12
    Attributes: 6/8/3
    Resistance: 5/5/5
    Greater Hero: 4/4/4
    Total: 21/29/24

    UMD:
    23(Ranks) +13(Cha) +2(Singer) +4(GH)=42

    Spell DC:
    10(Base) +6(Level) +13(Cha) +1(Item) +1(Singer) +2(MP)=33

    SR Check:
    20(Level) +2(Enh.) +3(Item) +2(MP)=27
    Last edited by EinarMal; 01-29-2009 at 01:12 PM. Reason: Mod9

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    611

    Default

    Very similar to the Icy build, so probably about as awesome. Interesting how 2 very similar builds should play very differently. Icy is DPS first, and your build looks like it should be cc first. In the end the differences in DPS and cc spell DCs should be significant. Not to mention you end up with more mana and UMD. You have enough INT to max another skill. Concentration? Haggle?

    If I were planning your build, I would be tempted to put 1 levelup into STR, to get even numbers with +3 tomes and max enhancements at level 14 (and lvl 20 w/ +5 tomes, if my extrapolation is correct).
    Last edited by geezee; 11-30-2007 at 11:10 AM.

  3. #3
    Community Member Club'in's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,269

    Default

    You might want to look closer at your spells. I'd drop cure light (relatively worthless) and grab Otto's instead. And you can't get Cure Serious at second level.

  4. #4
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by geezee View Post
    Very similar to the Icy build, so probably about as awesome. Interesting how 2 very similar builds should play very differently. Icy is DPS first, and your build looks like it should be cc first. In the end the differences in DPS and cc spell DCs should be significant. Not to mention you end up with more mana and UMD. You have enough INT to max another skill. Concentration? Haggle?

    If I were planning your build, I would be tempted to put 1 levelup into STR, to get even numbers with +3 tomes and max enhancements at level 14 (and lvl 20 w/ +5 tomes, if my extrapolation is correct).
    Yeah it actually is based on the TWF Dancing Dervish Bard that I posted, 1 month prior to icy I've dropped the two fighter levels. I just decided to wait on GTWF so I could get level 6 spells in mod6. I've played with the feats a bit as well.

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116268

    I would have to look in game, I know I did not put skill points in haggle but I think I did actually have concentration in there. I will check that and add it in good catch I was going off of memory (never a good thing for me).

    Yeah it really is a different twist on the same thing. For Drow the starting stats that you and I have on many builds are pretty much what you have to do. The difference is if you want to shift towards DPS or CC/Utility as you say. I have tried a version 12/2 Drow that had better DPS but did not like the lack of spell points and versatility as much. That is why I ended up going in this direction.

    I think either is a perfectly valid approach.

    The good thing about this build is it does offer quite a bit of feat flexibility for mental toughness and extend. You could pretty much swap anything in there as long as one of them gets you spellsinger and do fine as well. I just find myself currently fighting/buffing more than casting so chose those two. Later on if my spell DC starts to need a boost I can swap those for SF and GSF enchantment for example.

    I am actually at level 10 currently with the build and really like it so far. Now I just need to get past the level 10 hump of doom....
    Last edited by EinarMal; 11-30-2007 at 12:05 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Club'in View Post
    You might want to look closer at your spells. I'd drop cure light (relatively worthless) and grab Otto's instead. And you can't get Cure Serious at second level.
    I am actually swaping cure light for the new spell in Mod6 that gives weapon prof... but don't have it listed yet.

    I will update the other to cure mod (details details...)

    Without heighten otto's is worthless at high levels as well....not to mention AOE dancing sphere is better in every way unless you really only have 1 target. If I have 1 target I would just cast hold monster instead.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 11-30-2007 at 11:52 AM.

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,804

    Default

    I have almost this exact build, and to be honest, I have reservations about the character's offensive casting ability.

    I certainly don't have the best items yet, and I'm not quite at the cap either -- so take what I say with a grain of salt. At best though, this strikes me as a fairly late-blooming build; you're going to be pretty squishy in melee and you're not going to cast very well either until you can get a good set of items going. None of that is to say that a 4 point CHA disadvantage is the end of world, but when it comes to DCs, you're at least 4 points behind a pure-caster Bard (2 for CHA, and 2 for Spell Focus feats), and potentially more if the other Bard has Heighten.

    If I had to do it over again, I'd focus more exclusively on casting or melee. In fact, I plan to make a melee-focused Bard once I get access to 32-point builds. On the other hand, a more melee-focused character will have similar problems in the early going. I'd actually recommend going for Spellsinger early even if you don't plan to cast offensively just so you can power party buffs in the interim.

    The problem with Bards is that they're so versatile, they tempt you to try to do everything, but no one can do everything well -- particularly in a game in which mob hp, damage, and saves are so inflated at the high end.

    Don't get me wrong; this build is almost always useful, to the extent that it can hand out some pretty impressive buffs to both casters and meleers. It's just that it can be hard not to feel helpless in certain situations. I'd caution a new player not to expect too much, too early.

  7. #7
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
    I have almost this exact build, and to be honest, I have reservations about the character's offensive casting ability.

    I certainly don't have the best items yet, and I'm not quite at the cap either -- so take what I say with a grain of salt. At best though, this strikes me as a fairly late-blooming build; you're going to be pretty squishy in melee and you're not going to cast very well either until you can get a good set of items going. None of that is to say that a 4 point CHA disadvantage is the end of world, but when it comes to DCs, you're at least 4 points behind a pure-caster Bard (2 for CHA, and 2 for Spell Focus feats), and potentially more if the other Bard has Heighten.

    If I had to do it over again, I'd focus more exclusively on casting or melee. In fact, I plan to make a melee-focused Bard once I get access to 32-point builds. On the other hand, a more melee-focused character will have similar problems in the early going. I'd actually recommend going for Spellsinger early even if you don't plan to cast offensively just so you can power party buffs in the interim.

    The problem with Bards is that they're so versatile, they tempt you to try to do everything, but no one can do everything well -- particularly in a game in which mob hp, damage, and saves are so inflated at the high end.

    Don't get me wrong; this build is almost always useful, to the extent that it can hand out some pretty impressive buffs to both casters and meleers. It's just that it can be hard not to feel helpless in certain situations. I'd caution a new player not to expect too much, too early.
    I am currently at level 10 and have had no issues in melee, I have about 130 or so hit points and died only a handful of times during that time (sometimes things just go bad). I keep myself constantly stoneskined, displaced, hasted etc... I usually do quite well in terms of DPS in the party I am in. So, I guess my experience has been different than yours.

    This build works from 1-10 with no issues so far so I disagree with the late blooming part (although all Bards to some extent are like this until level 7 when you get 3rd level spells).

    Honestly casting is secondary the way I play, the spellsinger helps with UMD and spell points and I do throw out the occasional disco ball. I fight probably 85-90% of the time with very little time casting/healing unless I am in a group that really needs crowd control.

    Definitely if you want a maxed out CC caster this is not it, but Bard spell choice are too limited to make this attractive to me. I had a maxed CC casting Bard and did not like it.

    This build provides a good balance between DPS, utility, and CC casting. It is nice to have plenty of spell points, the ability to cast pretty effective CC spells, heal when needed, as well as have high UMD.

    I have played several builds similar to this and have not had any issues fighting at high levels and this build will not either. So, again I disagree with you assessment of the build being "squishy" and situational as that is not the case if you can fight and move effectively. If you are the type of player that wants to run into the middle of 5 mobs and swing away then it is definitely not the best choice. Just like a rogue it takes a certain amount of twitch skill to play a build like this effectively. If you suck at that sort of thing then I would recommend a dwarf barbarian or fighter or a healbot cleric.

    This is not a primary caster build, at least not the way I play it. The bulk of the time I spend fighting, although I will throw out a fear (I need to fix my spell list as I have this rather than charm monster) or disco ball when I can. I also have plenty of spell points for self healing. I think you will find that a very heavily focused melee build (this build is moderately melee focused) will also have issues of their own. Namely far less spell points and tighter feat selection. You also better hope that they never modify fascinate to work off of charisma or many dwarf/human low charisma melee bards will lose the only crowd control they have.

    I had a 12/2 TWF melee focused Bard similiar to A_Sheeps except he was Drow and re-rolled to this so I think you might feel differently once you've actually tried both. But then again you might not as it wasn't bad either. I just did not like the lack of flexibility and spell points. For example my ~24-25 DC disco ball might not be the greatest, but in a pack of 5-6 mobs it can easily remove a couple. That is a big benefit, you don't have to succeed with AOE spells against every mob, just enough to make it worthwhile. I like having that versatility in addition to good DPS.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 11-30-2007 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    I am currently at level 10 and have had no issues in melee, I have about 130 or so hit points and died only a handful of times during that time (sometimes things just go bad). I keep myself constantly stoneskined, displaced, hasted etc... I usually do quite well in terms of DPS in the party I am in. So, I guess my experience has been different than yours.
    I do very well in terms of DPS, too. That's not really the issue. All I'm saying is that your hitpoints are very low for a melee combatant until you get good gear squared away. People don't start with Draconic Vitality, for instance; they usually don't have a +2 CON tome lying around, either. Greater False Life, likewise, doesn't necessarily grow on trees (finding it is one thing; finding it on an item that doesn't conflict with something else you need is another).

    Your listed 244 hp is great at fourteen after you get DV and Minos Legens and a GFL item and a +6 CON item.

    Also, your UMD at level 10 is going to be somewhere around 25-27 (potentially higher if you have access to Greater Heroism buffs, but then again Planar Girds don't exactly grow on trees either), so maintaining Stoneskin via DC-32 scrolls seems a bit on the expensive side. I didn't post to criticize you; I posted only to temper a potential new player's enthusiasm a tad. This is not a build for beginners, in my view.

    This build works from 1-10 with no issues so far so I disagree with the late blooming part (although all Bards to some extent are like this until level 7 when you get 3rd level spells).
    Late-blooming, I suppose, is a subjective term. I describe it as such because of the hitpoints, the lack of mana both to buff and to cast offensively early on (even at level 7 you almost need spellsinger just to maintain those buffs). Later on, as your buffs grow in duration and your SP pool grows, sure, you can buff and cast the occasional offensive spell without much guilt.

    Honestly casting is secondary the way I play, the spellsinger helps with UMD and spell points and I do throw out the occasional disco ball. I fight probably 85-90% of the time with very little time casting/healing unless I am in a group that really needs crowd control.
    That's exactly how I play, too, which is why I expressed mild regret for trying to build for offensive casting, but hey, I may just be feeling a bit of builder's remorse. I sense that you and I are similar in the sense that we're both perfectionists when it comes to this sort of thing -- and one of the best points about DDO in my opinion is that build decisions are really very difficult in this game. There's almost always another compelling option you could have taken.

    As a sidenote, one of the smaller reservations I have with this build and CC casting is that I hate feeling like I have to swap out to Spell Focus equipment before casting. Maybe that's just me being lazy, but hey.

    Definitely if you want a maxed out CC caster this is not it, but Bard spell choice are too limited to make this attractive to me. I had a maxed CC casting Bard and did not like it.
    I don't love pure CC Bards either. My view is that if you're going to go that route, you might as well roll a Sorcerer. That view may change if Fascinate is changed to require an opposed save, but until then, a pure melee Bard will remain decent at CC in a pinch without having to spend spell points on it or sell out for Charisma.

    This build provides a good balance between DPS, utility, and CC casting. It is nice to have plenty of spell points, the ability to cast pretty effective CC spells, heal when needed, as well as have high UMD.
    I'm with you as far as spell points are concerned. In fact, I even said that if I were rolling a 12-CHA melee Bard, I would take Spellsinger at least to carry me through to the later levels. Spell points are that important.

    On the other hand, Charisma isn't that huge a factor when it comes to spell points, so you really have to want to cast offensively to pump it up beyond a certain point.

    I have played several builds similar to this and have not had any issues fighting at high levels and this build will not either. So, again I disagree with you assessment of the build being "squishy" and situational as that is not the case if you can fight and move effectively. If you are the type of player that wants to run into the middle of 5 mobs and swing away then it is definitely not the best choice. Just like a rogue it takes a certain amount of twitch skill to play a build like this effectively. If you suck at that sort of thing then I would recommend a dwarf barbarian or fighter or a healbot cleric.
    Hehe, so if I express disagreement with you I must be incompetent? Nice debating tactic there, buddy.

  9. #9
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Obitus View Post

    Hehe, so if I express disagreement with you I must be incompetent? Nice debating tactic there, buddy.
    I have about 120 or so hit points at level 10 and I don't die, that is not implying anything other than what is the case. I have no idea how good a player you are, however, I see plenty of fighters (some dwarf) that must have 70 or more hit points then me die 5 times in the same quest. I am simply saying as I have said many times, you need good twitch skills to play most TWF build that are not dwarf. Rogues (many of which die constantly) are in the same boat.

    Again I have had no issues personally with staying alive while fighting. I don't have any great gear at level 10, and probably normal twinkage 1-10 and have been fine. You do need a +1 dex tome though.

    You are the one who implied you have issues fighting and staying alive not me, I do not have those issues.

    I guess I disagree on how often you need to cast CC spells in order to make it worth being able to cast them. I want to be able to throw out an effective mass suggestion and disco ball when I need it, even if it is only a handful of times in a quest. It can often make a huge difference overall and save a ton of wasted resources etc....

    At level 20 with 32 charisma, and SF enchantment/GSF enchantement if you want them I don't think spell DC will be an issue.

    There is nothing wrong with focusing more on melee, I just did not find that it worked out well for me. I like being able to fight and cast well and don't mind doing both a little less than max.

    I will probably swap out MT for SF Enchantment eventually, when I feel like I could use the extra +1. For now I like having the spell points. I might also swap out Extend at some point for GSF Enchantement or spell penetration I would think at level 20 that normal buffs will probably last long enough.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 11-30-2007 at 07:39 PM.

  10. #10
    Community Member Samadhi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Under a dead Ohio sky
    Posts
    4,771

    Default

    Have a build quite similar to this in starting stats considering that its not a TWF and not a drow. In end game, something along these lines seems to be the only way to go. Your pure caster bards do not have the versatility of an actual pure caster, and hence are not nearly as useful as they could be in a lot of missions (undead, for example). Here being able to bust some skulls, in whatever style you prefer, is a huge benefit.

    Meanwhile, the melee focused bards that don't even get their cha up to 26, while still always useful because of smashing skulls and awesome buffs, are limiting their power quite a bit by removing even the option of casting offensive spells. Cha 30 on current end game, elite mobs is enough to be effective. Haven't tried less to know the exact cut off; but this is reliable enough to hold your own even without songs.

    Like it, and having two capped builds of a similar philosophy (and a third deleted), keep on rockin :P
    sravana, kirtana, smarana, dasya, atma-nivedana
    ...NAMASTE...

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    I have about 120 or so hit points at level 10 and I don't die, that is not implying anything other than what is the case. I have no idea how good a player you are, however, I see plenty of fighters (some dwarf) that must have 70 or more hit points then me die 5 times in the same quest. I am simply saying as I have said many times, you need good twitch skills to play most TWF build that are not dwarf. Rogues (many of which die constantly) are in the same boat.

    Again I have had no issues personally with staying alive while fighting. I don't have any great gear at level 10, and probably normal twinkage 1-10 and have been fine. You do need a +1 dex tome though.

    You are the one who implied you have issues fighting and staying alive not me, I do not have those issues.
    It was 130 hitpoints a minute ago, first of all.

    Secondly, I implied no such thing. I'm discussing the build's merits. I should be able to do that without having you pull the "of course if you suck you won't like my build" card. My use of the term "squishy" to describe this build (until the late game) was just that, a descriptor of the build. Sure, you can use twitch skills and diplomacy to avoid damage, but that doesn't make the build any less squishy. I'm sure most people wouldn't object to my calling most non-Dwarf rogues "squishy." Because they don't die, it doesn't mean they aren't fragile. And in point of fact, a Rogue is less squishy in a sense because he will have Evasion.

    When I do die on this build, or come close to dying, it's more often because of spell damage, often AoE spell damage.

    The question isn't whether I'm skilled enough or not. The question is whether what the build is good at can be improved. In my view, at the moment, my answer to that question is yes. That opinion may change in the future, but I thought it was worth pointing out that the build is not necessarily newbie friendly, if nothing else.

    Personally, I usually take very little damage in most fights, but I chalk that up as much to liberal use of Diplomacy as to anything else. I don't use Stoneskin scrolls very often because I don't like the delay when I fail my roll, and if it's a tight situation I often don't want to swap my neck out to my Cartouche. There is, as I'm sure you know, more than one way to skin a cat.

    The newer player would likely tend more towards the Diplo angle than he would towards the scroll approach, which is fairly expensive particularly before you have your full ranks in UMD. Just another observation from an incompetent player.

    The build's primary focus is melee, in my experience, and seemingly in yours too. That point, however, may have been missed in your original post, which if anything tends to imply that you're biased towards casting. Now maybe someone other than you or I would play this build differently with more of a spellcasting bias. I don't know. I agree that it's nice to maintain the option to throw out semi-effective spells, but maybe I'm just personally more inclined to focus on one primary role than you are.
    Last edited by Obitus; 11-30-2007 at 07:45 PM.

  12. #12
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
    It was 130 hitpoints a minute ago, first of all.

    Hence the or so part...depends on if I am raged or wearing false life ring....

    Secondly, I implied no such thing. I'm discussing the build's merits. I should be able to do that without having you pull the "of course if you suck you won't like my build" card.

    Build works fine, I don't die....

    The question isn't whether I'm skilled enough or not. The question is whether what the build is good at can be improved. In my view, at the moment, my answer to that question is yes. That opinion may change in the future, but I thought it was worth pointing out that the build is not necessarily newbie friendly, if nothing else.

    So make your own build and post it....

    Personally, I usually take very little damage in most fights, but I chalk that up as much to liberal use of Diplomacy as to anything else. I don't use Stoneskin scrolls very often because I don't like the delay when I fail my roll, and if it's a tight situation I often don't want to swap my neck out to my Cartouche. There is, as I'm sure you know, more than one way to skin a cat.

    I have diplomacy and rarely use it, generally there aren't that many better choices for the agro to go. I also don't normally agro large groups of mobs (don't run in first).

    The newer player would likely tend more towards the Diplo angle than he would towards the scroll approach, which is fairly expensive particularly before you have your full ranks in UMD. Just another observation from an incompetent player.

    Diplo is ok if you have other tanks in your group that can take the heat

    The build's primary focus is melee, in my experience, and seemingly in yours too. That point, however, may have been missed in your original post, which if anything tends to imply that you're biased towards casting. Now maybe someone other than you or I would play this build differently with more of a spellcasting bias. I don't know. I agree that it's nice to maintain the option to throw out semi-effective spells, but maybe I'm just personally more inclined to focus on one primary role than you are.

    It is a balanced build that fights/casts/heals when needed. The majority of the feats are fighting not casting related. That is balanaced by stat increases in charisma and spellsinger. It is pretty even on both accounts in my opinion.

    So focus away.......
    Replies in red....

  13. #13
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post

    I guess I disagree on how often you need to cast CC spells in order to make it worth being able to cast them. I want to be able to throw out an effective mass suggestion and disco ball when I need it, even if it is only a handful of times in a quest. It can often make a huge difference overall and save a ton of wasted resources etc....
    That's all fine, and like I said, I may revise my opinion on that later. I'm just saying that to this point, I find myself focusing more on melee because when I'm in an Elite quest, I don't feel like my casting is very valuable.

    At level 20 with 32 charisma, and SF enchantment/GSF enchantement if you want them I don't think spell DC will be an issue.
    With the very best of everything, and with enough levels to flesh out your spellcasting feats, I'm sure you're right. -4 to CHA (relative to a pure caster) shouldn't be the end of the world, after all.

    I will probably swap out MT for SF Enchantment eventually, when I feel like I could use the extra +1. For now I like having the spell points. I might also swap out Extend at some point for GSF Enchantement or spell penetration I would think at level 20 that normal buffs will probably last long enough.
    Hehe, I actually originally had Spell Focus in my build instead of Mental Toughness. I swapped it out because I wasn't casting offensively often enough. It's actually kind of amazing how similar our builds are. I started out with 16 STR and 16 CHA with the intention of putting my level raises into STR, but then on a whim at level 4 I decided to put them all into CHA to preserve whatever spellcasting ability I might have.

    All in all, I don't necessarily regret that decision. 1-2 points of DC are far more significant than are 1-2 points of attack/damage beyond a certain point.

  14. #14
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
    That's all fine, and like I said, I may revise my opinion on that later. I'm just saying that to this point, I find myself focusing more on melee because when I'm in an Elite quest, I don't feel like my casting is very valuable.



    With the very best of everything, and with enough levels to flesh out your spellcasting feats, I'm sure you're right. -4 to CHA (relative to a pure caster) shouldn't be the end of the world, after all.



    Hehe, I actually originally had Spell Focus in my build instead of Mental Toughness. I swapped it out because I wasn't casting offensively often enough. It's actually kind of amazing how similar our builds are. I started out with 16 STR and 16 CHA with the intention of putting my level raises into STR, but then on a whim at level 4 I decided to put them all into CHA to preserve whatever spellcasting ability I might have.

    All in all, I don't necessarily regret that decision. 1-2 points of DC are far more significant than are 1-2 points of attack/damage beyond a certain point.
    I would suggest trying a build with low charisma and really heavy melee focus and see how you like it, you might. I felt like the 20-40% DPS gain you get was not worth all that you give up, but that is totally subjective. I ended up deleting it and re-rolling because it played just like a fighter/barbarian as I needed all my spell points for self-buffing. With this build I can still be an effective fighter, but can offer up a lot of other things, I will even main heal if the group needs it (but I don't like it )

    Note, once you get GTWF at level 15, this build will have similiar DPS as a maxed str two handed warchanter with power attach but no two handed fighting feats. So, the 20-40% behind will only be those who went two handed with all the two handed feats or a maxed out TWF warchanter.

    The other point is what you really want to find are two wounding-puncturing rapiers. I actually use wounders a fair amount of the time on high hit point mobs. That is the great advantage of TWF over a two hander, versatility because of the number of attacks and agro management, not DPS although it helps a little.
    Last edited by EinarMal; 11-30-2007 at 08:07 PM.

  15. #15
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    Build works fine, I don't die....
    Irrelevant. This whole thing started because I called the build 'squishy' until the later levels (and/or until you get great gear). You then decided to take from that that I don't know how to play the build properly, which is both an incorrect assumption and an unfounded one.

    Again, a 100-hitpoint Rogue is no less fragile just because he plays to avoid taking damage. Describing the build as squishy has almost nothing to do with play style.

    I'm sorry if you felt insulted by the word squishy. It wasn't intended as a slam on the build or on yourself.

    So make your own build and post it....
    My own build is essentially the same as yours, with possibly minor differences in enhancement selection (I haven't looked recently to compare those). The stats and the feats are the same.

    I'm still mulling over what I'd do for a more melee-biased Bard, but I can post it if you'd like. I didn't mean to say that a melee-focused Bard would be unequivocally a better build; this isn't a competition. I was simply saying that a melee-focused build would be better at what I do 95% of the time on this one.

    I have diplomacy and rarely use it, generally there aren't that many better choices for the agro to go. I also don't normally agro large groups of mobs (don't run in first).
    You don't need to aggro large groups of mobs to use Diplomacy. Usually, I'll wait for the Fighter or Barb to run in to take sight aggro, then I'll hit Diplo as I'm running in behind him just to ensure that I have the next six seconds free to wail on them. After that, I will move about as needed. If I pull too much aggro during the fight, that button is available again in four seconds.

    I'm usually confident enough in my ability to kill things quickly that if a spare mob goes after a mage, it isn't that big a deal.

    Moving around when you draw too much aggro works too, and I love having maxed Jump (I also carry 100 Jump pots at all times) for that reason, but the thing with TWF is that you really want to be able to go through your entire attack progression as much as possible to derive best benefit.

    It is a balanced build that fights/casts/heals when needed. The majority of the feats are fighting not casting related. That is balanaced by stat increases in charisma and spellsinger. It is pretty even on both accounts in my opinion.
    And yet, by your own testimony, it's not balanced in practice.
    Last edited by Obitus; 11-30-2007 at 08:07 PM.

  16. #16
    Community Member nbhs275's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,275

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    This is my current TWF battle Bard, and my last. I like it better than any other I tried, and I've done 6 or so other variations. Posted if anyone is interested...

    Drow Neutral Spellsinger Bard 14

    Stats:
    Str 16 (26 =16 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
    Dex 16 (22 =16 +1 Tome +5 Item)
    Con 12 (22 =12 +2 Tome +6 Item +2 Rage)
    Int 10 10
    Wis 8 8
    Cha 16 (28 =16 +3 Levels +1 Tome +2 Enh +6 Item)

    End game charisma will be around 32 at level 20, basically 4 off the max (20 vs. 16 starting).

    Skills:
    UMD
    Perform
    Balance
    Jump
    Diplomacy
    Tumble (1 point)

    Feats:
    TWF
    Mental Toughness
    Extend
    ITWF
    IC Piercing

    HP:
    84(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +16(Helm) +30(GFL) +84(Con) = 244 (Raged)

    SP:
    375(14Bard) +207(Cha) +100(Magi) +100(Singer) +40(EOM II) +75(MT) = 897

    Enhancements:
    Bard Inspired Damage III
    Bard Inspired Attack III
    Bard Charisma III
    Bard EOM II
    Bard Concentration II
    Bard Song Magic II
    Bard Lyric of Song I
    Spellsinger
    Drow Melee Damage II
    Drow Melee Attack II

    Spells:
    1-Exp. Retreat, Hypno, Cure Light, Focusing Chant
    2-Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Cure Mod
    3-Fear, Displacement, Good Hope, Haste
    4-Hold Monster, Ottos, Freedom of Movement, Cure Critical
    5-Mass Suggestion, Greater Heroism

    To Hit:
    BAB 10
    Str 8
    Weapon 5
    Song 8
    Haste 1
    Racial 2
    TWF -2
    Total:+32

    Damage:
    Weapon 5
    Str 8
    Song 6
    Racial 2
    21 (17 Offhand)

    Ottos DC:
    10(Base) +4(Level) +9(Cha) +1(Item) +1(Singer)=25 (Mass suggestion 26)

    UMD:
    17(Base) +9(Cha) +3(Item) +2(Singer) +4(GH)=35 (Heal scroll on a 5 or 3 with raid loot)

    At level 15 I plan on GTWF, and I probably will pick up power attack at level 18. It is possible if I can be reasonably sure that I can get a +3 dex tome by level 20 that I would take fighter levels at 17 and 20 for superior two weapon fighting.

    I went spellsinger over warchanter for the added spell points and UMD and overall easier requirements. It allowed me to take a couple of other feats that a warchanter could not. I like having the extra spell points for CC/Healing and buffing others that I could not have on a warchanter build.

    I do sacrifice DPS, but have no problem killing mobs quickly and fighting well. At 15, GTWF will give me another big boost. I really enjoy this build and all the things it can do to help out a group.
    It looks alot like my bard, torrak<balanced bard thread> but with TWF in for PA and Toughness. Which overall isnt a huge difference, with the TWF giving good access to smiting/WoP/banishing/disruption which THF really doesnt as much. And the HP difference is large, though with lower acutal DPS with more instant effects, aggro will be smaller too.

    Dont forget HoGF and 7fg for umd, along with FC for another 5 to umd.
    Aundair, New Khyber
    Alreck Gingerbarrel(15clr/1barb), Torrak Gingerbarrel(16 Brd), Oat(13 Rgr/3Ftr), Moxxy(16 Sor), Thorrac Gingerbarrel(6 Pal/1 Ftr) <<Current Toons>>

  17. #17
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
    And yet, by your own testimony, it's not balanced in practice.
    Sure it is, it is balanced in what it can do, it just depends on what I need to do for the group to do well. In a perfect group with casters that are already doing CC and a healer then I help out the most by fighitng and buffing so that is what I do (along with the occasional heal if someone gets in trouble).

    If the group needs healing I heal, if no one has CC ability then I fascinate and cast more.

    Casting, even if I throw out a few more CC spells and heals generally takes less time than fighting so it isn't a question of balance in time spent but in capabilities.

  18. #18
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,804

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EinarMal View Post
    I would suggest trying a build with low charisma and really heavy melee focus and see how you like it, you might. I felt like the 20-40% DPS gain you get was not worth all that you give up, but that is totally subjective. I ended up deleting it and re-rolling because it played just like a fighter/barbarian as I needed all my spell points for self-buffing.
    I did roll one and played it to like level 3, but then I decided to finish up with this build while I wait to see what level 16 brings. I'm not sure yet whether it's best to go 15/1 or 14/2. Originally I toyed with the idea of 12/2/2 Bard/Fighter/Rogue but that seems like it isn't worth it.

    With this build I can still be an effective fighter, but can offer up a lot of other things, I will even main heal if the group needs it (but I don't like it )
    I don't like it either.

    The other point is what you really want to find are two wounding-puncturing rapiers. I actually use wounders a fair amount of the time on high hit point mobs. That is the great advantage of TWF over a two hander, versatility because of the number of attacks and agro management, not DPS although it helps a little.
    Hehe, I actually gave away a Wounding of Puncturing Rapier back before I recently came back to the game (when the level cap was 10). Interestingly, almost every other type of item seems easier to get now (because of the auction house, and because the new level cap means more good chests being looted, I guess), but those seem, if anything, more valuable than they were then.

    I'd say that the Puncturing suffix is the primary advantage of Drow over Dwarves, in addition to the advantage of TWF over THF. Likewise, Rapiers are slightly superior in terms of DPS to Dwarven Axes. But in just about every other way, a Dwarf is a better pure-melee character, Bard or otherwise.

    Honestly, I think that two-hander Bard builds are missing out. The song damage buffs, being static bonuses to each weapon wielded, severely favor two-weapon fighters. I don't know if song damage buffs affect glancing blow damage, though. If they do, then that's something.

  19. #19
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nbhs275 View Post
    It looks alot like my bard, torrak<balanced bard thread> but with TWF in for PA and Toughness. Which overall isnt a huge difference, with the TWF giving good access to smiting/WoP/banishing/disruption which THF really doesnt as much. And the HP difference is large, though with lower acutal DPS with more instant effects, aggro will be smaller too.

    Dont forget HoGF and 7fg for umd, along with FC for another 5 to umd.
    Yeah I left out raid loot, but certainly UMD could go higher than I listed.

    Once I get GTWF DPS will actually be very simliar to a 2-handed build, around 90 or so DPS which is right on par with 2-handed warchanters. Although as you say often the best thing about TWF is not "DPS" but wounding etc...

    I tried a two handed battle bard (dwarf) and had a harder time staying alive than I do with this build. I personally have an easier time staying on one target and managing agro with TWF versus a 2-hander. I know it works for some people but I like flanking moving and hitting single targets better than chopping wood with a greataxe (but that is just my own personal bias).

  20. #20
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    2,867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Obitus View Post

    I'd say that the Puncturing suffix is the primary advantage of Drow over Dwarves, in addition to the advantage of TWF over THF. Likewise, Rapiers are slightly superior in terms of DPS to Dwarven Axes. But in just about every other way, a Dwarf is a better pure-melee character, Bard or otherwise.

    Honestly, I think that two-hander Bard builds are missing out. The song damage buffs, being static bonuses to each weapon wielded, severely favor two-weapon fighters. I don't know if song damage buffs affect glancing blow damage, though. If they do, then that's something.
    Dwarfs are definitely uber, but that can certainly come and go and for Bards it is one of the weaker classes for dwarfs due to charisma obviously. They are a good choice for two handed battle bards, but not as good for other types of builds.

    I do not think song buffs do anything for glancing blows, but not 100&#37; sure (maybe like 99.2%)
    Last edited by EinarMal; 11-30-2007 at 08:29 PM.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload