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  1. #1
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    Default Velah and Ghallanda/Fernia/Lhazaar

    So.. I was on a lowbie (9-11) PUG Dragon raid yesterday. Most of the folks were from the same guild (I think 7) plus 4 random guys including me. I stress that this IS NOT an attack on the guild or their leader. They were all fun to run with and competent players from what I could tell.

    Anyway, we nail VoN5 relatively painlessly save a couple of "lava incidents". On to the Plane of Night. Paladin pulls the bases, some elementals wander back towards 1st, no biggie. One Flenser is hanging between 3rd and home. Not a problem, pull him back to home. The pillars go down smoothly. Everybody's back at the pitcher's mound.

    Up 'til this point everything has been done the same way we always did it back on Fernia. However as the leader begins to explain how we're gonna kill Velah, I hear the magical words: "first the fighters charge, then the clerics and then the rest". Did I hear correctly? Naw it can't be, the clerics ALWAYS stay at the pitcher's mound aka the bucket and only rez after everybody else is dead. It's a foolproof tactic; only running out of time or rez scrolls can lead to failure. I type (no voice chat ) something like : "well the clerics don't need to charge, they can just stay back here, that's how we always did it on Fernia". The leader must've missed my message as he starts the countdown anyway. We charge in and get her down to 1/2 health before dying. That's that.
    I explain what I was trying to say and everybody except couple of the other random dudes have never even heard of this tactic. The leader says he's done the Dragon about 30 times and they never left the clerics behind. This confused me to no end. 30 runs.. it must have been a common tactic to charge all out on the dragon. At his point I started to think it must be a server related matter.
    I recall another PUG Dragon raid a while back (after the merge though) where the clerics charged too. I was like "what the hell are you guys doing here?". I shrugged it off because we didn't wipe.

    I'm posting this thread because I'm curious to know was this really a common practice on either Ghallanda or Lhazaar. Andoli and his About the Size of a Box failed on their attempt too. What was the reason for their failure; did they run out of time ("Fernia") or just plain wipe like we did last night ("Ghallanda/Lhazaar")?
    I can safely say that most if not all of the Dragon raids on Fernia were done as I described above: the clerics stay on the white patch ("the bucket") near the gate and ask the chargers to come back and take the rez, one at a time. Rebuff and charge again. Rinse and repeat until Velah dies or time runs out.

    I was confused when I first saw people staying at the top of the stairs in PoP. After I realized it stopped the 1st round of spawns, I felt both impressed by the ingenuity of "you-other-server-guys" and embarrassed that we hadn't figured that out on Fernia. Should I be proud of Fernia now, because we apparently had the best Von6 tactic?

    I'm not looking for a flame-war. Discuss like teh grohun-upps do
    Caius Furius Aurelius of Fernia
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  2. #2
    Community Member Vinos's Avatar
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    I thought the server merge happened before that little twist to PoP. You know what I would have done if I were you? I would have let them charge and I would have hung back and when they all died it would have been nice to hear the leader eat his words before you rezzed them. The tactic he suggested probably works fine....for level 14's.

  3. #3
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    I've never had any trouble beating Velah with a fully party charge back on Argonnessan, even with levels 8-11. The whole "cleric in the bucket" thing is cheesy.

    Thing is, this guy's tactic for charging was just flat-out wrong. High reflex save, evasion preferred, goes first. This is to take the brunt of the initial dispelling breath, and sometimes sending in one person like this makes Velah not breath fire first thing. Everybody else goes second. Mass heals and proper in-battle tactics still work fine even for lower level characters.

    This of course assumes a highly competent party. PUGs can be a different story.

  4. #4
    Community Member Vinos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    I've never had any trouble beating Velah with a fully party charge back on Argonnessan, even with levels 8-11. The whole "cleric in the bucket" thing is cheesy.

    Thing is, this guy's tactic for charging was just flat-out wrong. High reflex save, evasion preferred, goes first. This is to take the brunt of the initial dispelling breath, and sometimes sending in one person like this makes Velah not breath fire first thing. Everybody else goes second. Mass heals and proper in-battle tactics still work fine even for lower level characters.

    This of course assumes a highly competent party. PUGs ARE be a different story.
    Fixed it for you.

  5. #5
    Community Member Allorious's Avatar
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    I know that tactic works, but to me it is no different then DC'ing the cleric...weak! You charge and you either kill her or wipe. This is what the game is about....and I have about 200-300 runs at Velah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allorious View Post
    I know that tactic works, but to me it is no different then DC'ing the cleric...weak! You charge and you either kill her or wipe. This is what the game is about....and I have about 200-300 runs at Velah.
    qft

  7. #7
    Community Member Vinos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allorious View Post
    I know that tactic works, but to me it is no different then DC'ing the cleric...weak! You charge and you either kill her or wipe. This is what the game is about....and I have about 200-300 runs at Velah.

    If you didn't have to repeat VoN 5 if you wipe then sure charging mindlessly is alot of fun.

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    Community Member sNaKeYeZ's Avatar
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    Only bad thing I can fathom about that cleric-stay-behind tactic is if Velah somehow switches aggro to a character that she can't melee/touch, then you're gonna have elemental spawns out the wazoo!

    If everyone rushes in (high saves->DPS->everyone else->clerics) and aggro is managed, things usually go just fine.

    Word used to be that whoever zones into VoN 6 first is who will have Velah's aggro initially (unless that person dies anywhere along the way).

    Transgression of Ghallanda
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  9. #9
    Community Member Allorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinos View Post
    If you didn't have to repeat VoN 5 if you wipe then sure charging mindlessly is alot of fun.
    So you run again another day...big deal....von 5 is about 40 minutes

  10. #10

    Default hmmm

    Ahoy fellow Server mates

    Ghallanda is my home. I had someone try and teach my cleric to stay at the pitcher mound method at the Velah raid and we all died on more than one occasion.

    Now, I run my cleric up there, target my team and mass heal. I've run it about 30 times now without a death in the party. I've done it short man with no deaths, I've done it with my ranger no deaths, I've done it with my sorcerer no deaths.

    It's all about what's comfortable for you. I found that staying on the mound only got me blasted in the face with her hot breath and left me roasted cleric meat!

    Look me up sometime and we'll run it together hun

    Arggggggg

    See ya in Stormreach,

    -R

  11. #11
    Community Member Nataichal's Avatar
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    I'm reading some of the responses to this thread and just laughing. The logic is, shall we say, somewhat lacking. The comments inferring 'well, you're just not uber enough if you can't get her in one mindless charge' are particularly amusing.
    So what if the bucket method, if employed properly, will never, ever fail except for time running out for some odd reason. Or that on elite,those 200+ point fire breaths will wipe half the party in 1-2 hits regardless of how many clerics charge.

    If people want to get themselves killed and waste their time, let them. Noone ever said they needed to have a brain to play DDO or make it to Velah.

    But if you're smart enough to actually employ some strategy so that you succeed, good for you.

    Work smarter, not harder.
    Last edited by Nataichal; 09-19-2007 at 11:22 AM.

    Guinglain 20 Barb Tynnian 20 Cleric Citrinitas 17 Rogue Nataichal 20 Sorcerer Dy Trying 20 Bard/Ranger Altar Boy 8 Paladin Wynds of Change 20 Pal/Fight/Rogue Near Miss 20 Ranger/Rogue Beeten Senseless 20 Monk/Fighter Systematic Elimination 16 Wizard

  12. #12
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    Safe spots != Strategy

    Safe spots = Graphical Texture Exploiting

  13. #13
    Community Member joker922's Avatar
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    Default Velah

    Im from Lhazaar, and the way Ive always done it is as follows. You would start with a three count. On 2, the toon with evasion and best saves (preferrable an evasion pally) would charge Velah alone. On 3, the remainder of the group would charge to be just underneath her front legs. The clerics at this point are responsible to spam Mass heal spells. this tactic has rarely failed in my experience.
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  14. #14
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    Here's how it's worked for me lately:

    We basically have everyone charge up there, normally the barbs make it there first which is fine with me, because they normally have a load of HP and can hold the aggro.

    As a cleric, I run up only close enough to make sure i'm probably out of melee range, but still have my entire party within heal range. Normally, this is about 1/2 way between the "gate" and Velah's front leg.

    People hack away. I watch to see who is taking the damage (ie: seems to have aggro), and the persons who are LIKELY to have aggro watch and say so, then block for a sec to make sure they're getting healed if they think they've got the aggro.

    Target and heal that person. Also toss the mass heals as timers allow, cause most people don't stray very far from whoever has the aggro anyways.

    Heal self as needed.

    I don't recall the last time we wiped, in fact, I don't recall the last time anyone even died, and normally we only take one cleric with us, although sometimes we take multiples just because people may have only their cleric ready, etc.

    Been doing it that way for a while, and it works great. Just like every other raid in the game, if you have good aggro management, and keep the target of the boss' ire alive and well, the raid is generally pretty simple to finish.
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  15. #15
    Community Member SaberMonkey's Avatar
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    The past 4 or 5 times I have done it, we buff up, get haste, and send out a runner (usually a evasion pally/high saves ranger DPS type) about a second before the rest of the party charges. Then you park yourself under her belly and beat her down. With Axell the past few times I have done it, I have held aggro and not even taken 1 point of damage on normal even in 4-5 man groups. I see nothing wrong with the bucket method as a safeguard, but I haven't had the need to use that method.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nataichal View Post
    Work smarter, not harder.
    This is pretty much what I'm thinking.

    Why NOT use the "Cleric-in-the-bucket"-tactic? Especially on a PUG run where you might not know the capabilities of your fellow raiders? Yeah I know that a party consisting mostly of level 14s with +1 Holy Greataxes of Greater Dragon Bane and casters spamming Maximized Cone of Cold won't have a problem with an all out charge. Like I said I was on a 11-14 PUG run some time ago when I to my surprisement noticed the clerics had charged too. I thought it was nothing, just lack of communication or whatever. We killed Velah; so what if the clerics are suicidal?

    And please, pretty please, let's not have this "but it's cheesy" -argument shall we. Velah is a ****ing Great Wyrm Red Dragon on elite and even on normal a Mature Adult. Do really think she would just sit still and watch us smash down the pillars protecting her? The whole Dragon fight is one big cheese-balooza of Lameville. Twelve level 14s shouldn't be able to beat a CR 18 Red Dragon. End of story.
    Caius Furius Aurelius of Fernia
    Philadelphus - Theodorus - Vibius - Isidorus - Cnaeus - Lucius - Flavius
    Aurelia - Lucilla - Iulia - Marciana - Caecilia - Pompeia
    Subsidium - Robotello - Roboangelo - Argentarius

  17. #17
    Community Member Qzipoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillitheris View Post
    Did I hear correctly? Naw it can't be, the clerics ALWAYS stay at the pitcher's mound aka the bucket and only rez after everybody else is dead.
    I pretty much stopped reading at this point...

    The cleric ALWAYS stays at the pitcher's mound? Is this rule written somewhere? Is it in the DDO Player Manual or something?

    No the cleric does not ALWAYS stay at the gate. Now i'm not from Ghallanda/Fernia/Lhazaar but I don't think this discussion is limited to those servers. Many people do velah in many different ways. I have guild runs in VON twice a week (even more with pugs) and I can safely say that most people have STOPPED leaving the cleric behind. It's just more efficient to have the cleric in the fight healing everyone, PREVENTING the party wipe instead of helping recover from it (I'm from Adar->Sarlona in case you're wondering).

    This is a similar tactic to one I still find in PoP Pugs a lot, the "1 person hides in a corner and I will cloudkill/firewall the cold room". Yes, that method works. But that method also takes a very long time and it is MUCH easier to just go inside and fight, but some people will have the weirdest arguments with you about how "we ALWAYS do it this way"...

  18. #18
    Community Member jaitee's Avatar
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    well to sum it down with the differences on the server merge

    standing at the top of the magic ramps in PotP is soo lame

    seriously people, lvl 14s in pop, and you guys are scared of starting off at the bottom

    one time i stood at the bottom and got YELLED at for not being up top( which is why i think its lame)

    get to the point, what difference does it make

    people say im scared, mind flayers might mind blast me, so we hide on the top, makes no difference, if your saves sucks, then reroll, or something, because if they spawn, it will = the same thing

    on fernia, no one ever did this, we just fought him right off the bat, but more and more people want to hide and stand on the top, and is just annoying

    started to be annoying when people kept telling me to stand here, do this, and do that

    seriously grow some...or what ever you wanna grow and quit trying to play hide and seek

    it only annoyed me when i was yelled at for not standing on the top, since then, i go to the bottom, dont even stay up top anymore, this is also why i think its lame

    this has to be the most wasteful, useless way of avoiding a wipe? im all for tactics, and new playstyles, but this one is just in the lame book...........

    seriously, if you guys are lvl 12-14 and have problems in PotP at the boss, maybe you guys shouldnt be in there?
    Last edited by jaitee; 09-20-2007 at 09:46 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qzipoun View Post
    I pretty much stopped reading at this point...

    The cleric ALWAYS stays at the pitcher's mound? Is this rule written somewhere? Is it in the DDO Player Manual or something?
    Well, you see. That part of the post was just depicting the feelings I had at the moment. I, as an ex-Fernian, was used to having the cleric stay back, ALWAYS. So I was, to say the least, confused when I heard the leader tell the clerics to charge in. I had killed Velah ~15 times before the merge and we never charged all out. Do you see where I'm coming from? On Fernia we ALWAYS left the cleric back and, apparently, on Ghallanda, Lhazaar and Adar you ALWAYS charged all out on the dragon. That was the original point of the thread: different servers had different tactics.

    And Jaitee, yeah, it really isn't a matter of life and death, but it is convenient
    Caius Furius Aurelius of Fernia
    Philadelphus - Theodorus - Vibius - Isidorus - Cnaeus - Lucius - Flavius
    Aurelia - Lucilla - Iulia - Marciana - Caecilia - Pompeia
    Subsidium - Robotello - Roboangelo - Argentarius

  20. #20
    Community Member Nataichal's Avatar
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    This thread has nothing to do with the PoP final room. As you noticed, its on Velah. Good that you can read.

    Guinglain 20 Barb Tynnian 20 Cleric Citrinitas 17 Rogue Nataichal 20 Sorcerer Dy Trying 20 Bard/Ranger Altar Boy 8 Paladin Wynds of Change 20 Pal/Fight/Rogue Near Miss 20 Ranger/Rogue Beeten Senseless 20 Monk/Fighter Systematic Elimination 16 Wizard

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