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  1. #1
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Default (new) Rogue Build, advice/thoughts sought

    Hello all. I am relatively new to ddo and desire to make a drow rogue, since I just unlocked them. I have spent awhile looking around the boards here, and looking at the stuff drow and rogues get in game, and have some idea of what Im doing. But Id rather not have to reroll a lot on this toon like I did on my main, to find something Im happy with, so Im posting my initial ideas here to see what everyone can point out before I get into things. I dont have any character at 14 yet, but Im thinking this might be the one to take up there, so Id like to get it right for the long haul. And ty in advance, Im sure this post will be rough as Im new. Its also long, so ty for taking the time.

    First some things about what Im trying to do:
    -Id like to stay pure rogue, Im pretty opposed to multiclassing this guy.
    -Id like to use a shuriken/shield combo for ranged attacks, with a high dex I should be able to hit ok, not too worried about dmg here.
    -Id like to be pretty viable in melee using rapier or shortsword, ie not dying in 6 seconds if I get agro, but I dont need to be top/max dps. I just want to be able to meaningfully contribute somewhere in the top distribution and be able to take a few hits if I need to. I am torn between going sword/board and twf, see below.
    -Id like to be able to find/disarm the 95 percentile of traps, I guess from reading theres 1-2 that are way above the norm in some high dungeon Ive never done, Im not worried about those just the big majority.
    -Id like to have umd high enough to use rez scrolls, those seem to be a big deal, and to keep myself healed up a bit, and to equip most gear. The skill levels needed for that werent defined as well as the trap related ones so if someone higher up could check that thanks.

    So, trying to fit those ideas into a character thats viable, Ive come up with this:

    True Neutral Drow Rogue 14
    Starting (added) Ending
    Str 10 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 16
    Dex 16 (item 6, level 3, tome 2, enhancement 1 to 5) 28 to 32
    Con 12 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 18
    Int 14 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 20
    Wis 12 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 18
    Cha 14 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 20

    Now I have 2 build points left I couldnt decide where to put. This is the first thing I need some real advice one. I am torn between str, for extra carrying capacity and extra damage to either bypass dr or on sneak immune mobs, or int for skill points and bonuses. I could also take dex to 17 and save on action enhancement points, which might be the best idea in the end, Im just not sure.

    Skills, I am going to max ranks in Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Tumble, and UMD. I am torn what to use the last point on, or 2 points if int is raised. Bluff seems like the best idea, or maybe Diplomacy? Balance and Jump are also useful, but with tumble to move and a high dex + items on balance, I think I can skip those.

    With max ranks in those listed skills, plus the racial bonuses, plus a way of the mechanic enhancement path, the rogue action boost, and +13 items and +4 tools, I believe I hit the majority of the trap related dcs (if I added right, thatll be 52 disable, 46ish open lock, 46 search, 41 spot; none of that includes 'buffs' just the action boost). Also UMD comes out to 35, Ive no clue if thats enough for what Id like to do but it seems pretty okay.

    Feats is probably my biggest problem area. Im just not sure which route seems the best idea. I only get 5 total on this build. Theres a lot of small groupings that seem really appealing, I could really use some advice on which are useful:
    -Weapon Finesse at 3 is pretty non negotiable it seems
    -Combat Expertise / Improved Feint, combined with the buff skill, and maybe sword/shield setup seems like it offers consistent high dmg hits with good defense. Id have to raise bluff to use this tho?
    -Two weapon fighting / Improved two weapon fighting seems like the best dps setup, but Ive read that since you draw agro after 3-4 sneak attacks (maybe 5 with the agro reduction enhancement) that all twf does is reach that point sooner. This is why Im not sure its actually more total dmg versus just more burst dps. Id like consistent, good, dps; not highest insane kill count. Maybe I dont need twf then, altho more swings with crazy weapon effects seems like a big deal high end?
    -Nimble Fingers / Skill Focus (traps or umd), these are obviously good ideas if my above numbers are short, altho I can also spend more than the minimum enhancements on them. I guess its spend feats on combat, enhancements on skills, or the other way round. Not sure which seems better.
    -Weapon Focus piercing / Improved Crit piercing, these seem like good ideas, especially the critical one as theres many places to gain an extra 1 to-hit and the attack already seems pretty good.
    -Power attack, I got this idea from the ranger area, but seems if I put str to 12 at the start, and used a 1 tome, and took this, it would be an extra 6 dmg to overcome dr or on sneak immune guys, which is good? Might be best with the twf idea.

    Enhancement wise, Ive checked out total points, and seems I can do way of the mechanic, the subtle backstab one, rogue action boost, drow spell resist, and have a few points breathing room left for either skill boosts, dex boosts, or shortsword/shuriken boosts, the backstab to hit or dmg ones, etc. So if anything is really important I should have like 4-8 points free to buy it, but Im pretty set on way of the mechanic, the agro reduce, action boost, and spell resist. Those just seem too good to not take.

    Again, thanks for taking the time, I realize this is long and a bit unfocused. But its because Im not quite sure which direction to take, because I dont have any higher end experience. Im sure Ill make a few flubs otw up, but Id like to minimize them. I guess defining which feat path to take, is the biggest gap, and that should help dictate where to put the rest of the bits, so if anyone could shine some light on the feats, like which ones they like and why, or how improved feint actually works, etc, thatd be very very cool. Cheers!
    Last edited by bbqzor; 09-04-2007 at 01:46 AM.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Hello all. I am relatively new to ddo and desire to make a drow rogue, since I just unlocked them. I have spent awhile looking around the boards here, and looking at the stuff drow and rogues get in game, and have some idea of what Im doing. But Id rather not have to reroll a lot on this toon like I did on my main, to find something Im happy with, so Im posting my initial ideas here to see what everyone can point out before I get into things. I dont have any character at 14 yet, but Im thinking this might be the one to take up there, so Id like to get it right for the long haul. And ty in advance, Im sure this post will be rough as Im new. Its also long, so ty for taking the time.

    First some things about what Im trying to do:
    -Id like to stay pure rogue, Im pretty opposed to multiclassing this guy.
    -Id like to use a shuriken/shield combo for ranged attacks, with a high dex I should be able to hit ok, not too worried about dmg here.
    -Id like to be pretty viable in melee using rapier or shortsword, ie not dying in 6 seconds if I get agro, but I dont need to be top/max dps. I just want to be able to meaningfully contribute somewhere in the top distribution and be able to take a few hits if I need to. I am torn between going sword/board and twf, see below.
    -Id like to be able to find/disarm the 95 percentile of traps, I guess from reading theres 1-2 that are way above the norm in some high dungeon Ive never done, Im not worried about those just the big majority.
    -Id like to have umd high enough to use rez scrolls, those seem to be a big deal, and to keep myself healed up a bit, and to equip most gear. The skill levels needed for that werent defined as well as the trap related ones so if someone higher up could check that thanks.

    So, trying to fit those ideas into a character thats viable, Ive come up with this:

    True Neutral Drow Rogue 14
    Starting (added) Ending
    Str 10 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 16
    Dex 16 (item 6, level 3, tome 2, enhancement 1 to 5) 28 to 32
    Con 12 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 18
    Int 14 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 20
    Wis 12 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 18
    Cha 14 (tome 1, item 5; or item 6) 20

    Now I have 2 build points left I couldnt decide where to put. This is the first thing I need some real advice one. I am torn between str, for extra carrying capacity and extra damage to either bypass dr or on sneak immune mobs, or int for skill points and bonuses. I could also take dex to 17 and save on action enhancement points, which might be the best idea in the end, Im just not sure.

    Skills, I am going to max ranks in Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Tumble, and UMD. I am torn what to use the last point on, or 2 points if int is raised. Bluff seems like the best idea, or maybe Diplomacy? Balance and Jump are also useful, but with tumble to move and a high dex + items on balance, I think I can skip those.

    With max ranks in those listed skills, plus the racial bonuses, plus a way of the mechanic enhancement path, the rogue action boost, and +13 items and +4 tools, I believe I hit the majority of the trap related dcs (if I added right, thatll be 52 disable, 46ish open lock, 46 search, 41 spot; none of that includes 'buffs' just the action boost). Also UMD comes out to 35, Ive no clue if thats enough for what Id like to do but it seems pretty okay.

    Feats is probably my biggest problem area. Im just not sure which route seems the best idea. I only get 5 total on this build. Theres a lot of small groupings that seem really appealing, I could really use some advice on which are useful:
    -Weapon Finesse at 3 is pretty non negotiable it seems
    -Combat Expertise / Improved Feint, combined with the buff skill, and maybe sword/shield setup seems like it offers consistent high dmg hits with good defense. Id have to raise bluff to use this tho?
    -Two weapon fighting / Improved two weapon fighting seems like the best dps setup, but Ive read that since you draw agro after 3-4 sneak attacks (maybe 5 with the agro reduction enhancement) that all twf does is reach that point sooner. This is why Im not sure its actually more total dmg versus just more burst dps. Id like consistent, good, dps; not highest insane kill count. Maybe I dont need twf then, altho more swings with crazy weapon effects seems like a big deal high end?
    -Nimble Fingers / Skill Focus (traps or umd), these are obviously good ideas if my above numbers are short, altho I can also spend more than the minimum enhancements on them. I guess its spend feats on combat, enhancements on skills, or the other way round. Not sure which seems better.
    -Weapon Focus piercing / Improved Crit piercing, these seem like good ideas, especially the critical one as theres many places to gain an extra 1 to-hit and the attack already seems pretty good.
    -Power attack, I got this idea from the ranger area, but seems if I put str to 12 at the start, and used a 1 tome, and took this, it would be an extra 6 dmg to overcome dr or on sneak immune guys, which is good? Might be best with the twf idea.

    Enhancement wise, Ive checked out total points, and seems I can do way of the mechanic, the subtle backstab one, rogue action boost, drow spell resist, and have a few points breathing room left for either skill boosts, dex boosts, or shortsword/shuriken boosts, the backstab to hit or dmg ones, etc. So if anything is really important I should have like 4-8 points free to buy it, but Im pretty set on way of the mechanic, the agro reduce, action boost, and spell resist. Those just seem too good to not take.

    Again, thanks for taking the time, I realize this is long and a bit unfocused. But its because Im not quite sure which direction to take, because I dont have any higher end experience. Im sure Ill make a few flubs otw up, but Id like to minimize them. I guess defining which feat path to take, is the biggest gap, and that should help dictate where to put the rest of the bits, so if anyone could shine some light on the feats, like which ones they like and why, or how improved feint actually works, etc, thatd be very very cool. Cheers!
    If it is a question of feats, I'd do the following.

    Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
    Level 3: Weapon Finesse
    Level 6: UMD Focus
    Level 9: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
    Level 12: Improved Critical: Piercing

    - You can very easily switch your level 1 and 3 feats around, although UMD at level 1 isn't that big of a deal, so taking it at level 6 is ok IMO.

    - Honestly, the skill focus feats are not needed if you only want to disable 95% of the traps. I don't have it on my toon, and I don't blow traps up. (Except for Cabal Elite, but that is an exception to the rule ehh? )

    17 Ranks
    +15 Item
    +7 Tools
    +4 Disable Device II and Way of the Mechanic
    +5 Int
    = 48 Disable Device before buffs/boost

    - Going the route you are going, your UMD should be just fine to use rez scrolls. It won't be flawless use without buffs, but it will be close.

    17 Ranks
    +3 Skill Focus
    +3/5 Item
    +5 Cha
    = 28/31 before buffs/boost

    - DPS: Make sure to have AT LEAST the 3rd rank of Subte Backstabbing. Makes a huge difference in aggro reduction.

    - Extra Ability Points: Depends on what you want. If you want to be slightly better at disable, and have more points, go for INT. If you want to get closer to flawless Raise Dead scrolls, go CHA. Personally, I'd go CON. We Elves, while being the superior race, are lacking the HP to stand up to things. The more CON the better.

    - Skills: Go with diplomacy over bluff. Its better to sluff off aggro than get another sneak attack in. Both pretty much allow the same thing, except that Diplomacy is AoE and Bluff is single target.

    - After taking the important stuff, I'd use as many points in Dex Enhancements as possible. Rogues are a low BAB class, 10 BAB at level 14. Since you are going the Finesse route, it would be best to increase your attack as much as possible.
    Rangers don't die, they just teleport to their bind point.

  3. #3
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Ty for taking the time to look it over, that is some very helpful advice.

    I am curious, how exactly does improved feint work? I see that twf is the more popular route, but the feat description is lacking, is it also ae? How long does it last? I am curious if that is an alternative to diplomacy.

    And I am very comfortable with my skills then, ty. What is the dc for raise dead scroll exactly? Hehe, I am curious how short I am, I guess I can umd some self buffs if needed, just wondering how far the gap is to reach 100% on using those.

    Im glad about the dex and enhancement stuff, I feel even more solid about that now. Once I get a feat path fully settled, I think Ill be set!

  4. #4
    Community Member Nitestalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqzor View Post
    Ty for taking the time to look it over, that is some very helpful advice.

    I am curious, how exactly does improved feint work? I see that twf is the more popular route, but the feat description is lacking, is it also ae? How long does it last? I am curious if that is an alternative to diplomacy.

    And I am very comfortable with my skills then, ty. What is the dc for raise dead scroll exactly? Hehe, I am curious how short I am, I guess I can umd some self buffs if needed, just wondering how far the gap is to reach 100% on using those.

    Im glad about the dex and enhancement stuff, I feel even more solid about that now. Once I get a feat path fully settled, I think Ill be set!
    Raise Dead Scrolls have a UMD of 32.
    CannithThievious 20 Human Rogue(2nd Life) , Bastidious 15 drow TWF fighter, Botious 10 Warforged Frenzy Barbarian

  5. #5
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Ok then, ty!

  6. #6
    Community Member Riekan's Avatar
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    Actually, Raise Dead scrolls have a difficulty of 36. You'll still be pretty close to perfect with a GH.
    Proud Officer of the Guild of the Black Dragon on Sarlona.

  7. #7
    Community Member bbqzor's Avatar
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    Lol, okay, looking good.

    I think Ive settled on dropping wis to 10, and then spending the 2 remaining points plus the 2 from wisdom change, to get dex to 18. That seems better than dex16/wis12/free2 ya?

    Also, improved feint, it seems really attractive but does anyone know how it actually performs in game? While I realize I can change feats around np, using it seems to take a skill investment (bluff) which I couldnt move around, so before setting up for it Im curious how it would play out. Specifically, if its ae, how fast it refreshes, etc... just in general how it compares to plain old bluff or plain diplomacy. Thanks a ton!! Im really getting a handle on this rogue thing.

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