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  1. #1

    Default Hammer and Tongs (A build by request)

    From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread

    Build Name: Hammer and Tongs
    Author: Sigfried Trent
    Requester: Pinksock
    Last Updated: 07/12/10

    Key Words [Tactics, Dwarf, TWF, Fighter]

    Objectives
    The requester wanted a 28pt TWF character using either hammers or picks. I got it into my head to do a TWF character that used both hammers and picks, idealy at the same time. The high concept was that the hammer would stun opponents and the pick would tear them apart with strong auto crit’s.

    Design
    I went with dwarf for the tactics bonuses and because I liked the idea of dwarves with anvil like tools. Warforged would work quite well also but I’ve done a similar warforged build already. TWF focus was essential and on a 28pt build that means splitting Str and Dex at character creation. Fighter is the natural class for any tactics based build and pure is a good way to go. In the end it let me get all the feats I wanted and then some.

    Since pick is the damage dealer I throw Kensei into it. Generally you would be main handing a pick and off handing a stunning warhammer. You are more focused on landing a stunning blow move than on getting the 3% stunn chance. You can instead use dual stunners and then switch to dual picks. Quick draw makes that easier to do once you get it. Ive often found that approach a bit impractical, but it is effective if you are quick enough.

    Damage with either weapon will be very good but the pick crits are really insane at high levels, especially if you can work a high seeker value into the mix. Epic Meralith Chain is great for this build, and even the normal chain is pretty nice.

    Defenses are decent here although that really isn’t a prime consideration. Solid HP and decent AC are attainable but this is not meant to be a main tank for a group. On boss fights go with dual picks and you should be in the top tier of DPS, especially if you get a bit lucky on the crit rolls.

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
    (20 Fighter) 
    Hit Points: 342
    Spell Points: 0 
    BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
    Fortitude: 15
    Reflex: 9
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    23
    Dexterity            16                    17
    Constitution         16                    17
    Intelligence         10                    10
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              6                     6
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               5                    18
    Bluff                -2                     1
    Concentration         3                     6
    Diplomacy            -2                     1
    Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
    Haggle               -2                    -2
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  3                     3
    Intimidate           -2                     1
    Jump                  7                    29
    Listen               -1                    -1
    Move Silently         3                     3
    Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
    Perform              n/a                   n/a
    Repair                0                     0
    Search                0                     2
    Spot                 -1                    -1
    Swim                  3                     7
    Tumble                n/a                   n/a
    Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a
    
    Level 1 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
    Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
    
    
    Level 2 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
    Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
    
    
    Level 3 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
    
    
    Level 4 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
    
    
    Level 5 (Fighter)
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
    
    
    Level 6 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery I
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
    
    
    Level 7 (Fighter)
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
    
    
    Level 8 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
    Enhancement: Fighter Heavy Pick Specialization I
    
    
    Level 9 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
    
    
    Level 10 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV
    
    
    Level 11 (Fighter)
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    
    
    Level 12 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
    Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery II
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
    
    
    Level 13 (Fighter)
    Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
    
    
    Level 14 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    
    
    Level 15 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
    
    
    Level 16 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
    
    
    Level 17 (Fighter)
    Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
    Enhancement: Fighter Heavy Pick Specialization II
    
    
    Level 18 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery III
    Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
    Enhancement: Fighter Warhammer Specialization I
    
    
    Level 19 (Fighter)
    
    
    Level 20 (Fighter)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
    Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
    Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics III
    Play
    Weapons play an important part in this build so hunting down good stunning hamemrs and DSP picks is key. Also keep in mind that while you don’t have improved trip, you are decent with tripping anyhow so make it part of your hot bar at lower levels. You may also want to keep a pair of dwarven axes for zombie slaying.

    Variations
    32pt builds and tomes only add to the fun. You can probably start with 18str if you like. You can also turn this into a splash build, probably rogue if you want evasion and a little sneak attack damage. Fighter alacrity is nice, but not quite the boon it once was. When you take it might be a little tricky though due to the BAB requirements on the feats taken. Its easier to add in later to the build than earlier.
    Last edited by sigtrent; 07-12-2010 at 01:56 PM.
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  2. #2
    Community Member WolfSpirit's Avatar
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    Arrow Ok, I like this one

    I like this one Sig, but I would like you to alter a few things for me if you would.

    First off, I want to see this as a drow version.
    Both a Str option, and a Dex/Finesse option.
    (I figure Finesse with PA is still holding its own)
    All or mostly fighter, whichever gives the best TWF skills with dual Heavy/Light Pick.
    with all the happy Piercing bonuses/feats and such.
    Oh! And what if you wanted to go with Kopesh in main hand? Whats the best secondary hand weapon, and what Feat changes would that include to make that a deadly build?
    If you can squeeze in good self healing, cool if it takes too much away, then scrap it.
    And all without items, though suggestions after the fact are good.
    Last edited by WolfSpirit; 08-22-2007 at 02:10 PM.

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  3. #3
    Community Member Hokonoso's Avatar
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    best khopesh offhand is another khopesh :P

  4. #4
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    Thanks for that Sig. I have been messing around with both builds and didn't even think of combining them! I have collected an average stash of both weapons (nothing top end but enough to make the mid levels fun) so this build is easily doable for me and I am quite excited to get in and give it a go.

    The only follow-on question I would have is would it be worth sacrificing some high end weapon damage feats like greter weapon specialisation and things like cleave to get the mobility->spring attack line. With the amount of moveing most mobs do now, would there be an increase in DPS due to the removal of the to-hit penalty?

    Will be rolling up 'Redsock' on Khyber this week and following your gameplan.

    Thanks
    Pink
    Last edited by Pinksock; 09-02-2007 at 11:18 PM.

  5. #5

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    There is certainly lots of room to play around with the feats on the build. You don't need the greater WF or greater WS they just seemed the right thing to maximize pick damage for the build.

    I'm not a fan of mobility/spring attack. Running around tends to make you miss due to server lag and latency because the monster isn't really where it appears to be, more than you miss due to the -4 attack penalty. But the build does already have dodge in there so its only two feats. Fighter is about the only class I'd consider those feats for since you have feats to spare.

    If mobility weren't so useless I might like it more. I've often argued it should give you an ac bonus whenever you are moving or the like. Then it would be more worthwhile in my mind.

    Personaly I tend to stick and move. So I move around and then stop to attack, then move a bit if needed. I like tumbling since it doesnt interupt the attack chain or impose the move penalty but its not so good for chasing monsters.

    My fave move tactic is to circle a monster when there are a bunch of them agroed on me. Thier buddies get cought up finding their way around while I pick on the one I'm using as a virtual shield.
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  6. #6
    Community Member Diato's Avatar
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    Doesn't 5% stun give +10 to dc of stunning blow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diato View Post
    Doesn't 5% stun give +10 to dc of stunning blow?
    I am not sure, but I do know the 1% stun gives +2 DC so I would assume that 5% would give +10

    Yet to find a 5% weapon!

  8. #8
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    5% gives +10. Much more common are 4%/+8 weapons IME.

    This build needs Quick Draw.

  9. #9
    Community Member A_Sheep's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'd definitely add quick draw to this build. It'll increase your DPS if you can swap the weighted weapons for picks. I'd suggest dropping dodge for quick draw.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by A_Sheep View Post
    Yeah, I'd definitely add quick draw to this build. It'll increase your DPS if you can swap the weighted weapons for picks. I'd suggest dropping dodge for quick draw.
    It really doesn't need quick draw. The idea is that you always wield the weighted weapon in the off hand and the pick in the main hand. The bonus to stunning blow DCs applies not to the weapon, but to any stunning blow the character makes. So stunning blows with the pick get the bonus from the weighted property of the off hand weapon.

    The 5% stun is only on off hand attacks, but that is just a bonus effect, it is the increase to stunning blow DCs that we are really after here.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    It really doesn't need quick draw. The idea is that you always wield the weighted weapon in the off hand and the pick in the main hand. The bonus to stunning blow DCs applies not to the weapon, but to any stunning blow the character makes. So stunning blows with the pick get the bonus from the weighted property of the off hand weapon.

    The 5% stun is only on off hand attacks, but that is just a bonus effect, it is the increase to stunning blow DCs that we are really after here.
    Well, that's one idea. Another one would be to wield a weighted/10 hammer and vertigo/10 rapier and swap to anarchic/axiomatic burst and seeker/10 picks or dual bane weapons after delivering a stun or trip. I'm not sure why you're embracing the fact that you get the overall seeker/weighted/vertigo/shatter DC bonus from both weapons, then limiting yourself to only using the Stun portion of the equation. For +1 to AC? That doesn't make any sense. And the only way "always wielding" makes any sense to me is if you have a 5% weighted blunt in the offhand and a bursting heavy pick mainhand along with a Bloodstone. Even if you were concentrating 100% on landing Stunning Blow, you'd likely want 5%ers in each hand when you're on the SB timer rather than hoping/praying for one 5% to land or a crit on the pick. Not to mention that with Quick Draw you can swap to debuffing weapons to bane to power 5's to whatever else you wanted while on the timer.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Well, that's one idea. Another one would be to wield a weighted/10 hammer and vertigo/10 rapier and swap to anarchic/axiomatic burst and seeker/10 picks or dual bane weapons after delivering a stun or trip.
    Ya, but that would be a somewhat different character. They do have vertigo Picks BTW and the requester specificaly wanted to use picks or hammers and avoid the usual TWF weapons. Reguardless, the build doesn't have imporoved trip or combat expertise or 13 int. Without improved trip, you can still land it, but why slow down your damage output for the occasional trip when you could just wail away on someone? BTW anarchic/axiomatic burst are generaly no where as good as the elemental burst weapons are on high crit multiplyer weapons. They are nice on rapiers and other X2 weapons but on X3 and above the elemental effects are much more reliable and have more damage potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    I'm not sure why you're embracing the fact that you get the overall seeker/weighted/vertigo/shatter DC bonus from both weapons, then limiting yourself to only using the Stun portion of the equation.
    Because if you wield two tactics weapons, you end up with two low enhancement (aka low +) weapons in both hands. That lowers your accuracy and damage. You can't trip what you can't hit. By mixing an effect weapon with a high accuracy weapon you get the best of both on the tactics swing. (which always seems to be made with the main hand). So instad of +1 to hit on your trip/stun you get +5 and that's a 20% bonus to hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    For +1 to AC? That doesn't make any sense. And the only way "always wielding" makes any sense to me is if you have a 5% weighted blunt in the offhand and a bursting heavy pick mainhand along with a Bloodstone.
    I've no idea what you mean about the AC. but... Yes... if you look at the attack profile I am recomending a 5% weighted blunt and a bursting heavy pick mainhand. I didn't put the bloodstone in there as I don't generaly include raid loot except sometimes in the AC section. But ya, bloodstone would be great for this (or any) combat character. I'm not saying you should never switch weapons, but that is your optimal pairing for 70% of your opponents. For skeletons you would want two blunts etc and stunning would be pointless.

    My fighter has improved trip and kopesh. One of my weapon sets is a +5 Shock kopesh paired with a Vertigo 5 light mace. Works great. After tripping someone I do sometimes switch weapons to dual kopesh, but even wtihout quick draw the time it takes to do so is almost inconsiquential. I've never though.. "dang if I only had quick draw this would be so much easier". I'm not saying its bad to have quick draw, but I've never felt the need for it on a character that carries around a veritable golf bag of weapons because generaly I pick the best weapon for the monster before I engage it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Even if you were concentrating 100% on landing Stunning Blow, you'd likely want 5%ers in each hand when you're on the SB timer rather than hoping/praying for one 5% to land or a crit on the pick.
    ??? For starters the crit chance on the pick is 10% not 5%, which interestingly is double the chance for the stun to land from the weighted property. Secondly it is not 100% concentrated on landing a stunning blow. Its a bout 50% interested in stun and 50% interested in big pick crits. That is the whole Hammer and Tongs idea, not just Hammer and Hammer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Not to mention that with Quick Draw you can swap to debuffing weapons to bane to power 5's to whatever else you wanted while on the timer.
    Ya, and you can do that wihout quick draw. Really if you are swapping weapons more than once during combat with a particular mob something is probably wrong. There is no need to swap out the hammer and pick unless you are facing something where you wouldn't want to use them at all, in which case you would switch before you start swinging.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    the build doesn't have imporoved trip or combat expertise or 13 int. Without improved trip, you can still land it, but why slow down your damage output for the occasional trip when you could just wail away on someone?
    Improved trip only garners you +4 to the DC; with Vert/10 weapons in the game that feat is really for the shorter cooldown. The point is that you get Trip for free, and with a Vertigo weapon you can be stomping someone at +4 to hit rather than having them upright and punching you in the face. Unless you foolishly max out the SB Enhancement line, you'll have the same DC for SB and Trip if you use appropriate weapons.

    The reason I bring up Trip is because it joins a common deficiency I see in this build- ignoring free tools the TWF fighter has at his disposal: Trip, Sunder, and shared tactical bonuses beyond just Stun. Quick Draw allows for the fluid use of those bonuses and feats. If this was a rogue or bard build short on combat feats, I wouldn't be such an advocate for QD's inclusion, but this build has so many that you're spending an entire feat on 1 AC while not even considering Mobility/Spring Attack down the road(I'm with you on that one, btw)
    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    BTW anarchic/axiomatic burst are generaly no where as good as the elemental burst weapons are on high crit multiplyer weapons. They are nice on rapiers and other X2 weapons but on X3 and above the elemental effects are much more reliable and have more damage potential.
    Axiomatic/Anarchic burst on a pick= +5d6

    Elemental burst on a pick= +3d10

    I don't see where the "more damage potential" comes from. I can only assume you are mistakenly equating Alignment Burst with Holy Burst.

    The difference is minimal regardless. I'll typically pair an appropriate alignment-burst pick with a seeker/10 heavy pick for held/stunned foes in a zone full of like-alignment baddies, but use an elemental pick offhand if it's a mixed bag.
    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Because if you wield two tactics weapons, you end up with two low enhancement (aka low +) weapons in both hands. That lowers your accuracy and damage. You can't trip what you can't hit. By mixing an effect weapon with a high accuracy weapon you get the best of both on the tactics swing. (which always seems to be made with the main hand). So instad of +1 to hit on your trip/stun you get +5 and that's a 20% bonus to hit.
    Or you could throw your tactics on the fourth swing. If you aren't connecting on your fourth swing reliably, you aren't connecting for boo on swings 1-3, either. Someone playing this build should hopefully realize that the Tactical swing is paramount, and will include it on the fourth attack(barring a mezzed target, possibly). Yes, it is easier for someone to just mash the attack button and keep swinging. But it's just as easy for someone adept with swapping and driving a QD build to grab a different weapon set after the fourth swing and go right back to work. It just takes practice, and nailing the fourth-swing Tactical attempt is all the practice you need to fully master Quick Draw, IME.
    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    ... if you look at the attack profile I am recomending a 5% weighted blunt and a bursting heavy pick mainhand. I didn't put the bloodstone in there as I don't generaly include raid loot except sometimes in the AC section.
    Well, the Bloodstone comes out of the desert, not a raid, but if you're implying that 5% weighted offhand weapons and +5 bursting picks are easy to come by, I don't know why you wouldn't include raid loot as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    After tripping someone I do sometimes switch weapons to dual kopesh, but even wtihout quick draw the time it takes to do so is almost inconsiquential.
    I have to ask here if you've ever played a melee over an extended period of time that *had* Quick Draw. IME the difference is profound, and instead of thinking "that didn't take too long to switch, I don't need Quick Draw" you're looking for ways to use more things in your golf bag during the fight than just estimating what'd be best on average for an encounter. I'm leveling a TWF ranger sans QD and fighting is so stilted it's pathetic. It's reminding me of owning a car without a sunroof or cruise after owning one that did.
    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    ...it is not 100% concentrated on landing a stunning blow. Its a bout 50% interested in stun and 50% interested in big pick crits. That is the whole Hammer and Tongs idea, not just Hammer and Hammer.
    While I can appreciate this point, I haven't grouped with too many people at the cap that say "yeah, my build could do that, and it'd be pretty fly, but I'm trying to stick to a theme, here." It's not like the dude would be rolling with two scimmys at all times or something and trashing the whole build idea- check the cooldown, bust out the hammers on a swap, stun something, flex the picks, swap back to the blunt-and-pointy. 50/50 all around.
    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Really if you are swapping weapons more than once during combat with a particular mob something is probably wrong. There is no need to swap out the hammer and pick unless you are facing something where you wouldn't want to use them at all, in which case you would switch before you start swinging.
    I don't understand how arming yourself in such a rigid way really helps overall. Let's put the stun aside for a moment, as you can't really rely on that 5%, and eventually you'll be on a timer. You're saying you'll kick out more sustained damage with a 19-20 crit range on a pick and a light hammer in your hand than two appropriate greater bane weapons? Or the flexibility to bust out a debuffing combo if you're having issues hitting or just want to assist other melee? IMO a big part of a tactical build is what you're doing during the cooldowns. Those 15 second chunks can take up a large part of the fight, and even a swap to two picks to max out the crits while waiting for the Stunner to be ready again would be preferable to swinging the hammer.

    I'll get to the point- taking Dodge over Quick Draw on a TWF build with a plethora of feats just doesn't add up to me.

    It could be that I'm simply underestimating the "theme" aspect of this build, however, and that you(or the requester) wanted to be seen toting a hammer and pick 99% of the time. If that's the case, no worries with the build as-is.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Improved trip only garners you +4 to the DC; with Vert/10 weapons in the game that feat is really for the shorter cooldown. The point is that you get Trip for free, and with a Vertigo weapon you can be stomping someone at +4 to hit rather than having them upright and punching you in the face.
    You have to keep in mind I build these with a specific purpose in mind. The request was for hammers or picks because he wanted something different and he wanted to see big critical hits. Tripping just isn't a part of that. I'm not doing the stunning for the sake of crowd control of defense, its there to help you land crits with the pick more often since that is the point of the build. Mucking around tripping people isn't going to make them die faster, its a defensive tactic and this is an offensive build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Quick Draw allows for the fluid use of those bonuses and feats. If this was a rogue or bard build short on combat feats, I wouldn't be such an advocate for QD's inclusion, but this build has so many that you're spending an entire feat on 1 AC while not even considering Mobility/Spring Attack down the road(I'm with you on that one, btw)
    Ahh ok I see where you are coming from with the +1 AC thing now. I agree it's marginal, but I think Quick draw is about the same. I was taking advantage of the decent AC the build has due to being a dwarf. It would be a decent substitution, but I still see this as a build that very heavily favors the one optimal weapon set described. If you land a stun the creature will likely be dead before you can switch weapons anyhow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Axiomatic/Anarchic burst on a pick= +5d6
    I happen to have these so I'll check later but I was under the impression they were always 2d6 base and 3d6 crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Elemental burst on a pick= +3d10
    And they have +1d6 normal bonus damage too. But the thing is, elemental weapons will effect a much wider range than alignment burst. Alignment burst requires oposite alignments and none of them work on neutral targets of which there are many. I'd rather get my shocking burst all the time than get alignment burst on less than 30% of the monsters in game, 60% if you swap em around between ax/an/hl

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    The difference is minimal regardless. I'll typically pair an appropriate alignment-burst pick with a seeker/10 heavy pick for held/stunned foes in a zone full of like-alignment baddies, but use an elemental pick offhand if it's a mixed bag.
    Stunned monsters are going to die nearly instantly no matter what sort of picks you are swinging around. I'd much rather have a consistantly good weapon that to be constantly fubbing around on my hot bar for some combo that is marginaly better 20% of the time. I'm not saying that its useless to have the perfect weapon for any given moster but I don't personaly think it's worth the hastle when you can kill them just fine anyhow. There are certainly some critters you want to specilize agaisnt. Uncrittable and high DR critters almost require different weapons but to noodle around just to get a little extra damage when you already do 100+ crits seems silly to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Or you could throw your tactics on the fourth swing. If you aren't connecting on your fourth swing reliably, you aren't connecting for boo on swings 1-3, either. Someone playing this build should hopefully realize that the Tactical swing is paramount, and will include it on the fourth attack(barring a mezzed target, possibly). Yes, it is easier for someone to just mash the attack button and keep swinging. But it's just as easy for someone adept with swapping and driving a QD build to grab a different weapon set after the fourth swing and go right back to work. It just takes practice, and nailing the fourth-swing Tactical attempt is all the practice you need to fully master Quick Draw, IME..
    It just seems like an awful lot of work without an awfuly big payout when you could have one set of weapons that get's the job done admirably on 70% of your foes without any switching or timing etc... I appreciate the craft of it and indeed on my tactics fighter I generaly throw trips on the 3rd or 4th swing, but I don't sweat exact timing and sweapon set switching etc.. and I do just fine. If I want to trip I use my tripping TWF set, and if not I use one of a couple different DPS sets. Monsters don't generaly live long enough to justify switching from one set to another and a tripped mob isn't fighting back so time isn't exactly critical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    Well, the Bloodstone comes out of the desert, not a raid, but if you're implying that 5% weighted offhand weapons and +5 bursting picks are easy to come by, I don't know why you wouldn't include raid loot as well.
    Just personal experience I suppose. I don't raid for specific loot but I do buy things of the AH and brokers, and I've bought a fair number of +5 weighted weapons from there and a fair number of +5 vertigo ones, and a few +5 bursting picks as well. I've never ever seen a bloodstone on the AH or brokers. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've just never seen one. Personaly I don't have the patience to run a chest 30+ times trying to pull named items. I get bored of that pretty fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    I have to ask here if you've ever played a melee over an extended period of time that *had* Quick Draw.
    I have not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    IME the difference is profound, and instead of thinking "that didn't take too long to switch, I don't need Quick Draw" you're looking for ways to use more things in your golf bag during the fight than just estimating what'd be best on average for an encounter. I'm leveling a TWF ranger sans QD and fighting is so stilted it's pathetic. It's reminding me of owning a car without a sunroof or cruise after owning one that did.
    Style thing I suppose. I've never flet like I can't switch weapons when I want to. I also hate carying around more than a page of weapons at most, it seems both rediculous and bothersome to keep track of them all and find slots for them on the toolbar or to find the right one to click on. Takes me longer to click it than to actualy switch. But I'm not saying it sucks, just that its not for me, and I don't think it's "needed".

    Request a buld for the Quick Draw king and I'll try to make a build all about weapon switching, but each one has a central idea and I stick to it. This one is about using very specific weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    I don't understand how arming yourself in such a rigid way really helps overall. Let's put the stun aside for a moment, as you can't really rely on that 5%, and eventually you'll be on a timer. You're saying you'll kick out more sustained damage with a 19-20 crit range on a pick and a light hammer in your hand than two appropriate greater bane weapons? Or the flexibility to bust out a debuffing combo if you're having issues hitting or just want to assist other melee? IMO a big part of a tactical build is what you're doing during the cooldowns. Those 15 second chunks can take up a large part of the fight, and even a swap to two picks to max out the crits while waiting for the Stunner to be ready again would be preferable to swinging the hammer.
    It isn't a "tactical build". It's a "Picks for crits and hammers for stuns so the picks crit more" build. Lots of weapons are better than hammers or picks but that's what the requester wanted so that's what he got. The whole point of these request builds isn't to make them the best build possible, its first and foremeost to meet the build requirements and secondly to make them work well after doing so. Granted dodge vs quck draw has little to do with the requirements, but the whole, why not use other weapon things is besides the point because that isn't the goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmackdown View Post
    I'll get to the point- taking Dodge over Quick Draw on a TWF build with a plethora of feats just doesn't add up to me.
    Unlike some of the other stuff I don't totaly disagree with you here, an since you made such a heartfelt case for it I'll change the build to reflect that.
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  15. #15
    Community Member pappo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread

    Build Name: Hammer and Tongs
    Author: Sigfried Trent
    Requester: Pinksock
    Last Updated: 07/12/10

    Key Words [Tactics, Dwarf, TWF, Fighter]

    Objectives
    The requester wanted a 28pt TWF character using either hammers or picks. I got it into my head to do a TWF character that used both hammers and picks, idealy at the same time. The high concept was that the hammer would stun opponents and the pick would tear them apart with strong auto crit’s.

    Design
    I went with dwarf for the tactics bonuses and because I liked the idea of dwarves with anvil like tools. Warforged would work quite well also but I’ve done a similar warforged build already. TWF focus was essential and on a 28pt build that means splitting Str and Dex at character creation. Fighter is the natural class for any tactics based build and pure is a good way to go. In the end it let me get all the feats I wanted and then some.
    How would you modify this for dwarven axes? I have a lvl 15 dwarf fighter that I am not happy with and want to do a re-roll. I have a Greater Heart of Wood so I can make a 32 point re-roll. I also have a backpack full of dwarven axes that I would have to sell if I wanted to try this build with picks. I would like to keep the axes if possible.
    Any help would be appreciated.

  16. #16
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    I'm not sigtrent, but for DAxes I'd think you'd take Slashing feats instead of Piercing and the DAxe ftr enhs rather than Heavy Pick. Might even be able to squeeze in the dwarf axe enhs while you're at it. 32-pt vs 28-pt: could put it into +2 CON; or +1 STR + 1 INT - that way you could take a +1 INT tome for more skill pts or +2 INT tome to get Combat Expertise & Imp Trip someday.

  17. #17
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    I am working on a human variation on this theme using Hammers and Sickles. Any advice as to how to maximize. I know sickles are one of the lower base dps weapons, but they look so cool and the hammer and sickle theme is fun for me.

  18. #18
    Community Member The_Mud_Man's Avatar
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    Rolled up this guy last night and it's quite fun so far. I started out at lvl 4(love my veteran's status). I'd like to incorporate trip into the build for leveling and swapping out feats/enhancements later as necessary to what's suggested in the build. Any suggestions on how I'd go about this?
    Last edited by The_Mud_Man; 01-23-2011 at 07:21 AM.

  19. #19
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    Default Barb focused variation

    -edit-
    Last edited by dunkabuffalo; 01-30-2011 at 11:35 PM.

  20. #20
    Community Member Mister_Peace's Avatar
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    Edit: damn necromancers.
    Last edited by Mister_Peace; 01-30-2011 at 11:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by havokiano View Post
    you are boring. And you rosik a lot. bye.
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