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  1. #21
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    Spiff seems to be reposting it with selective comments.
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    Thelanis

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  2. #22

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    Ahhh... now it makes sense... and he was posting the comments we had made himself... got it.

    Interesting. It's certainly an ambitions and intersting build..

    I think if there is a central problem its that the build comes up a little short in a bunch of categories. I'm no min/max guy but you need to measure up to a certain point to do a good job with a given role. This character really has 3 roles going...

    Arcane Caster
    Support Fighter
    and Skill Rogue (which often includes healing via UMD)

    I think as an Arcane he is really lacking. He can't do strong DPS. At lower levels he can get by, but in upper levels he might as well un-learn all his damage spells as they arn't going to make much of a dent in most monsters. His charisma is decent, but he is useing low level CC spells without heighten so his DC values are going to fall pretty far short of most of his casting peers. They are probably servicable, but still a bit low to be really reliable.

    As a support fighter he is decent, but those really low HP are going to make life challenging. Fortunately he shouldn't pull a lot of agro and using stat damage or effect weapons can be pretty usefull to the party. No illusions of really being a tank though, its not going to work so well.

    In the rogue end he is missing a strong Open Lock. Knock is ok, but due to his limited caster level and the fact many locks can not be knocked at all.. he is lacking here. His final DD and Seach numbers are.. unkown as the build isn't fully detailed in that way. They are probbably decent though. No spot, thats not fatal but its limiting. UMD is quite good though.

    Overall I'm impressed he squeezed as much in here as he did. It more or less lives up to what he claims (does a lot of things decently if not especialy well).

    I almost feel this build would be better as Fighter/Rogue/Bard, you end up with more skill points to work in it, and in some ways better CC options than a sorcerer has, but less SP. Less spells though.. and no quick cast, but fascinate and the song buffs are powerfull. You get more enhancemetns because you can drop fluidity, and you get more hp. Your saves take a hit, but you get a couple more feats to play with. You would have to run them side by side and see how it works out.
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  3. #23
    Community Member moorewr's Avatar
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    I agree - either do more of a fighter/wizard or sorc/pally, or do as you suggest - there's only so much you can squeeze in.

    Not to cross threads but I have been contemplating a bard as my next character, and I had just started looking for a "fighting bard" build. You have a lot on your plate in the build thread, but I'll bug you about it later.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    I almost feel this build would be better as Fighter/Rogue/Bard, you end up with more skill points to work in it, and in some ways better CC options than a sorcerer has, but less SP. Less spells though.. and no quick cast, but fascinate and the song buffs are powerfull. You get more enhancemetns because you can drop fluidity, and you get more hp. Your saves take a hit, but you get a couple more feats to play with. You would have to run them side by side and see how it works out.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Rentz's Avatar
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    this build seems a bit muddled to me, and i'm not a fan of finesse builds...but i'll try to be objective. Also, you should use ron's character planner and really detail a build for people and crunch some numbers so we know what you're planning to end up with. I have to basically go through and actually build your build for you here just to see some hard numbers...i guess i have too much time on my hands. :P

    for one thing, you can't start with 18 cha and 18 dex..one has to be 17 - i recommend dex.

    10
    17 26(+ 2 drow dex + 1 rogue dex + 6 item)
    8 14 (tome +6 item)
    16 22 (+6 item)
    8
    18 30 (+3 sorc +3 levels +6 item)


    there doesn't seem to be much direction, from your description. As Sig said, his offensive and cc casting will likely be lackluster as he doesn't have max caster levels. his melee and tanking ability is questionable with such a low con score and questionable DPS with repeater (i'm just not sure how effective they are end-game). i suspect he'd have trouble using stat damagers due to a low str (on elite anyways), not to mention that without TWF feats stat damagers aren't particularly effective.

    I think i see what you're trying to do; you can come close to max with charisma and add illusion focus feat and then pull off some PK's, etc. this MIGHT work okay, i'm not so sure....Your best bet would likely be non-save or damage spells.

    to hit:
    8 BAB
    8 26 dex
    2 heroism
    5 +5 repeater/bolts
    1 haste
    ---
    24... on the low end.. 28 would be something to shoot for.
    26 with grtr hero via planar gird or friends. the scroll will be expensive.

    rogue skills -
    43 Search (16 (or so) ranks + 6 int + 4 grtr hero +1 enh + 3 ab + 13 search item)
    39 UMD 17 ranks + 4 grtr hero + 3 cartouche + 15 Cha (enough to scroll Heal on a 1.)
    46 Open Lock: 5 ranks + 13 dex + 7 tools + 13 item + 3 AB + 1 enh + 4 grtr hero
    47 Disable device : (13 (or so) DD ranks +6 int + 4 grtr hero + 1 enh + 3 AB + 7 tools + 13 DD item
    15 concentration ranks

    Positives:
    ---------
    evasion with a great reflex save
    decent fort and will save.
    damage mitigation from stoneskin and displacement
    offense from firewall, scorch ray, cone of cold, repeater, shortswords + rapiers
    little to no arcane failure
    decent non-shield ac (around 40)
    decent rogue skills, but not end game elite i don't think.
    fantastic UMD - can scroll any divine scroll without fail.

    Negetives:
    -----------
    relatively low hit points. even with a toughness feat instead of SF: illusion and a +6 con item bring you to 14 con: 151 hitpoints before false life spell and item. so 200 assuming the spell and grtr false life item. keep the heal scrolls handy.

    not max caster levels and no Heighten for PK.
    could use Enervate in conjunction with phantasmal killer... a bit mana intensive though. 1176 spell points to work with, assuming POP X.
    rogue skills aren't quite high enough for elite levels, are they? could sacrifice some concentration skills for a few more, possibly.

    I guess this is a variation of a Wizard Rogue trading max rogue skills, spells, and caster levels/effectiveness for evasion and high saves.

    I think you'd be better off switching to 1 rogue/13 wizard so you can simply max Int and Dex, and have some more points left over for Con. you'd have a great wizard rogue who's more effective with spells and can still shoot the repeater.
    however, the build has just enough to-hit, spells, and rogue levels to be just fine except on some elite levels where your rogue abilities may not be enough.

    if equipped properly, you can be a very good backup healer (heal scrolls), secondary caster (probably not a main caster, though), and a reasonable facsimile of a rogue. you take the place of a rogue or bard in a quest, keeping everyone hasted and blurred, and even displacing the tanks in tough fights.

    "ultimate" might be a stretch. :P an "ultimate" build should be incredibly self-sufficient...i'm not sure you have enough DPS to call this build 'ultimate'... it's fairly survivable, though, with evasion, Stoneskin, Displace, 40 AC, and Heal scrolls.
    Last edited by Rentz; 08-15-2007 at 08:19 AM.
    Kinlore the Arcane Avenger: Drow 2 Rogue - 2 Paladin - 10 Sorcerer
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  5. #25

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    Remember spell saving throws do not directly depend on caster level.. the formula is..

    10 + Level of SPELL + Prime Requisite bonus + feats/enhancments/items bonus

    So his PK is 10 + 4 + 10 + 1 = 25 (which is around 3-5 pts short of a typical pure caster using a max level spell.) And sadly PK has two saves.. :<

    Caster level does effect spell penetration, so his spell pen rolls are down by 4 from a pure caster.

    Personaly when I make a hybrid caster I go for damage casting since saves and spell penetration just arn't an issue. It's also why I was thinking bard, because their fascinate has no save at all so levels arn't important.

    Repeaters are decent at end game if you can get one with interesting effects on them, paralyzing repeaters are especialy handy. DPS wise they are about what you would expect, they do throw out damage but not especialy fast. Wounders can also work well sometimes.
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  6. #26
    Community Member Rentz's Avatar
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    ah, thanks for the refresher, Sig.
    Kinlore the Arcane Avenger: Drow 2 Rogue - 2 Paladin - 10 Sorcerer
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  7. #27
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Wow, lots of detailed work, nice. Well here are some responses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rentz View Post
    this build seems a bit muddled to me, and i'm not a fan of finesse builds...but i'll try to be objective. Also, you should use ron's character planner and really detail a build for people and crunch some numbers so we know what you're planning to end up with. I have to basically go through and actually build your build for you here just to see some hard numbers...i guess i have too much time on my hands. :P

    for one thing, you can't start with 18 cha and 18 dex..one has to be 17 - i recommend dex.
    Drow are magic. you really can have 18 cha, 18 dex, and 16 intel.
    [QUOTE=Rentz;1296790]
    10
    17 26(+ 2 drow dex + 1 rogue dex + 6 item)
    8 14 (tome +6 item)
    16 22 (+6 item)
    8
    18 30 (+3 sorc +3 levels +6 item)


    there doesn't seem to be much direction, from your description. As Sig said, his offensive and cc casting will likely be lackluster as he doesn't have max caster levels. his melee and tanking ability is questionable with such a low con score and questionable DPS with repeater (i'm just not sure how effective they are end-game). i suspect he'd have trouble using stat damagers due to a low str (on elite anyways), not to mention that without TWF feats stat damagers aren't particularly effective.
    [/qoute]
    if stat damage doesnt work d/t damage reduction, then nuke. Remember this build is never at a loss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rentz View Post
    I think i see what you're trying to do; you can come close to max with charisma and add illusion focus feat and then pull off some PK's, etc. this MIGHT work okay, i'm not so sure....Your best bet would likely be non-save or damage spells.

    to hit:
    8 BAB
    13 26 dex
    2 heroism
    5 +5 repeater/bolts
    1 haste
    ---
    29... respectable.
    31 with grtr hero via planar gird or friends. the scroll will be expensive.

    rogue skills -
    43 Search (16 (or so) ranks + 6 int + 4 grtr hero +1 enh + 3 ab + 13 search item)
    39 UMD 17 ranks + 4 grtr hero + 3 cartouche + 15 Cha (enough to scroll Heal on a 1.)
    46 Open Lock: 5 ranks + 13 dex + 7 tools + 13 item + 3 AB + 1 enh + 4 grtr hero
    47 Disable device : (13 (or so) DD ranks +6 int + 4 grtr hero + 1 enh + 3 AB + 7 tools + 13 DD item
    15 concentration ranks

    Positives:
    ---------
    evasion with a great reflex save
    decent fort and will save.
    damage mitigation from stoneskin and displacement
    offense from firewall, scorch ray, cone of cold, repeater, shortswords + rapiers
    little to no arcane failure
    decent non-shield ac (around 40)
    decent rogue skills, but not end game elite i don't think.
    fantastic UMD - can scroll any divine scroll without fail.

    Negetives:
    -----------
    relatively low hit points. even with a toughness feat instead of SF: illusion and a +6 con item bring you to 14 con: 151 hitpoints before false life spell and item. so 200 assuming the spell and grtr false life item. keep the heal scrolls handy.

    not max caster levels and no Heighten for PK.
    could use Enervate in conjunction with phantasmal killer... a bit mana intensive though. 1176 spell points to work with, assuming POP X.
    rogue skills aren't quite high enough for elite levels, are they? could sacrifice some concentration skills for a few more, possibly.

    I guess this is a variation of a Wizard Rogue trading max rogue skills, spells, and caster levels/effectiveness for evasion and high saves.

    I think you'd be better off switching to 1 rogue/13 wizard so you can simply max Int and Dex, and have some more points left over for Con. you'd have a great wizard rogue who's more effective with spells and can still shoot the repeater.
    however, the build has enough to-hit, spells, and rogue levels to be just fine except on some elite levels where your rogue abilities may not be enough.
    nice work. I already have a repeater using rogue 1/wizard x formerly known as Hippolyta the Sea Elf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rentz View Post
    if equipped properly, you can be a very good backup healer (heal scrolls), secondary caster (probably not a main caster, though), and a reasonable facsimile of a rogue. you take the place of a rogue or bard in a quest, keeping everyone hasted and blurred, and even displacing the tanks in tough fights.

    "ultimate" might be a stretch. :P an "ultimate" build should be incredibly self-sufficient...i'm not sure you have enough DPS to call this build 'ultimate'... it's fairly survivable, though, with evasion, Stoneskin, Displace, 40 AC, and Heal scrolls.
    Ultimate is meant to mean can do everything. There is no such thing as an "ultimate" build per say.

  8. #28
    DDO Players Council Xyfiel's Avatar
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    Impaqt I had thought you had played with Xyfiel enough to know he is very similiar and does a decent job at everything. I know you have healed him in quests, and 168 hps is quickly cured, but w/p helps reduce aggro as a secondary melee while displacement stops half the hits. A fearsome robe of imp false life helps a lot also. Guess I should repost the build with his current setup soon.

    For the quick info though, try this:
    Drow Rogue3/Wiz11
    High dex and twf, 40+ac using robes
    saves mid 20's with evasion
    almost permanent haste/displacement/stoneskin/tensers/resists
    w/p rapier/ss, or off hand curse and power4 main(dont use vorpal)
    rogue skills for everyting but cabal elite, umd boosted at 32
    900 mana and empower(soon to be maximize) for boss nuking

    Just keep me away from dispelling mobs...

  9. #29
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyfiel View Post
    Impaqt I had thought you had played with Xyfiel enough to know he is very similiar and does a decent job at everything. I know you have healed him in quests, and 168 hps is quickly cured, but w/p helps reduce aggro as a secondary melee while displacement stops half the hits. A fearsome robe of imp false life helps a lot also. Guess I should repost the build with his current setup soon.

    For the quick info though, try this:
    Drow Rogue3/Wiz11
    High dex and twf, 40+ac using robes
    saves mid 20's with evasion
    almost permanent haste/displacement/stoneskin/tensers/resists
    w/p rapier/ss, or off hand curse and power4 main(dont use vorpal)
    rogue skills for everyting but cabal elite, umd boosted at 32
    900 mana and empower(soon to be maximize) for boss nuking

    Just keep me away from dispelling mobs...
    Good build. Thank you for pointing out that these build types will not draw aggro away from the tanks.

    Fearsome armor will be a must in the end game content.

  10. #30
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigtrent View Post
    Remember spell saving throws do not directly depend on caster level.. the formula is..

    10 + Level of SPELL + Prime Requisite bonus + feats/enhancments/items bonus

    So his PK is 10 + 4 + 10 + 1 = 25 (which is around 3-5 pts short of a typical pure caster using a max level spell.) And sadly PK has two saves.. :<

    Caster level does effect spell penetration, so his spell pen rolls are down by 4 from a pure caster.

    Personaly when I make a hybrid caster I go for damage casting since saves and spell penetration just arn't an issue. It's also why I was thinking bard, because their fascinate has no save at all so levels arn't important.

    Repeaters are decent at end game if you can get one with interesting effects on them, paralyzing repeaters are especialy handy. DPS wise they are about what you would expect, they do throw out damage but not especialy fast. Wounders can also work well sometimes.
    Perhaps you are right. With the new faser cooldown timer for wall of fire I really like the spell again. Also I can easily kite mobs into multiple fire walls and not take any damage.

    Most of my other spells have no save. I am considering the two weapon fighting line. I leveled this build to 7 but have since moved it to my home server and am starting over.

    Greater two weapon fighting will have to wait for level 15.

  11. #31
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Impaqt View Post
    Spiff seems to be reposting it with selective comments.
    I saved what I could from cache. Unfortunately 2/3 of the material was lost.

  12. #32
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juika View Post
    Your spells wont hit.
    You will be missing your high level spells.
    140HPs is a joke. Your AC is a joke. You will not survive melee content. If your primary focus is casting, why are you even aiming for AC at all? GH elite content will slap you around like a red-headed step child. Honestly... a cleric is just better off rezzing you everytime you take a dirtnap than trying to keep you healed.

    The sum of your parts is worse than the individual components themselves.
    Most of the spells have no save. Hp dont really matter so much as I wont have aggro and when I do get aggro I know how to kite.

    There will be some instant deaths, but even my ranger who does draw aggro because of the dps he puts out does not die often, mainly d/t fearsome armor but also d/t speed.

    I will survive alot better than the normal wizards who will get hunted like harpseals.

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