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  1. #21
    Community Member maddmatt70's Avatar
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    You tread a fine line mister. I am personally not a fan of elitism i.e. I think it a negative view of the world. It is not that difficult to figure out a viable barbarian build what is far more difficult is making it work in game. I have only run with maldini a couple of times, but having run with shade/axer many times I can attest he has alot more abilities/skills then just some silly barbarian build of which there is only a limited number of truely viable ones. If people ask for builds that is one thing, but take your "right earning mentality" somewhere else, but of course this is America so you can keep right on trucking with it I guess.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    If people ask for builds that is one thing, but take your "right earning mentality" somewhere else.
    I'll say it again, they name it. They could name it the Hhfgfhghfghfghfghf build, but that would be really easy to say, wouldn't it? It's just a name.
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  3. #23
    Community Member Emili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddmatt70 View Post
    I love that people try to name builds after players. I mean how many different ways can you build a two-handed weapon wielding barbarian. I would like to introduce my new laura build - what she looks strangely like a maldini or axer build, but instead of spell defense 1 I have the intimidate 1 enhancement. She is wayyy different.
    Ok, well then it looks like a dwarven version of a DPS barbarian build Maldini happened to post. Feel better?

    I mean seriosly, we all know people do not invent a build per say, the tools are there and anyone can come up with a build in multiple configuration sor whatever... All I asked was had anyone seen the thread as I was looking for it and it was not showing up.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emili View Post
    Ok, well then it looks like a dwarven version of a DPS barbarian build Maldini happened to post. Feel better?
    The reason mine and Maldinis builds are refered to by name and well known for what they are. is simply because they are really the only original builds that are actually quite good. Most of the PMs I receive are either about my build or how players have enjoyed using it, so it holds true. Nothing about elitisms, just about helping players play good and fun builds.

    I've posted mine back in beta on the beta forums, and reposted in early on in live, to say i've copied Maldini is funny. I don't think he copied mine either, he had his up fairly early pre mod-1 as well. And while the build have the same feats, the enhancements differ greatly so they are unique.

    Re: sutek:
    This is a group build. You really shouldn't expect to be able to heal yourself early on. While I can solo quite well with it now, with all the loot and raid gears, it's not the focus of the build, just something that happened.

    Just always group with good healing clerics or bards. Played correctly the cleric should not run out of mana healing you in any quest of appropriate level 1-13. level 14 clerics have to use heal scrolls, its a part of the game. Most of the ones I regularly group with have a near unlimited supply and use only scrolls to heal me because they have more fun using the SP to attack monsters.

    It's a two handed build, it excels in DPS and can utterly dominate any quest if done correctly, basicly the best way to play it is to be make sure your party is working as a team, keeping you fully buffed because really you have the abilities to complete the entire quest yourself - given the correct buffs and some healing. I often tell my party, yea just buff me only - because barbarians can make the best use of buffs.

    Never go sword and board. Because really you should take less damage with a 2 hander - simply kill your enemies fast enough so they can't hit you much, if at all. Very important early on is DR boost and uncanny dodge as well, you should use it non stop whenver your about to engage an enemy - should you run out of them quickly.. Your doing a good job, thats what for there for, dont save them. End up at a shrine with a few uses left and you didnt be aggresive enough.

    Thing is well played barbarians need allot of support to fight well.Try to always have someone to haste and someone to heal your in the party at a minimum. Ask the wizard for continuoys haste, stoneskin and displacement.. It's far better on you then on him and will save the cleric over 75% SP worth of healing, sometimes more.

    And the clerics also need to know, for a high HP dwarf barbarian like this, they can waste allot of SP healing it "wrong". Tell them to only use the heal spell, and only heal you when your below 50% - that will be much more effecient and makes healing very easy for clerics. Versus constantly topping people off with lots of little cures - cost allot more mana. With only big heals on you - you really should be trying to take ALL the damage, yes be the mana sponge, because you will save the party allot of damage.

    Ie monsters hit you for 30 dmg, 15 is stopped by your DR.. 5 minuits later and 20 more hits the cleric might need to heal you.

    Versus the monster hit the 8 con elf wizard for 30 dmg.. He's nearly dead and needs a heal imediately - 20 times over and the clerics out of mana.
    So really in the end how much damage you take can be as much your groups fault as your own. Many different factors to consider.
    And to answer the question directly : Honestly allot of the time I don't even carry potions and the clerics don't know or care. If I have some I only use them if I wanna run off and solo, otherwise ill ask for a heal, wands are cheaper ;p.
    If your clerics just suck and are that poor, buy them some heal scrolls and/or wands, allot cheaper them potions. Just remember to ask for them back if you give them to an unknown pug cleric.

    n Borrorq.. Im one of the top anti toughness guys around, kinda odd u thought my build had it lol.. None of my charactersr have it, not mental toughness either.
    Last edited by Shade; 11-03-2007 at 01:52 PM.

  5. #25
    Community Member Sutek's Avatar
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    I just hit lvl 12 Greater THF is tha bomb dittty bomb bomb

    Thanks Shade the build kicks arse

  6. #26
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    A couple of questions:

    1. 18 str 20con OR 18str 18con 12dex 10wiz.
    Basically I am asking why u prefer +1will save +2reflex save (because that's all u r getting) over the extra hps and rage length.
    Is 20 con min/maxing or gimping.
    Does the bonus to saves make the difference? U already have +3 (or more) to saves vs spells as a dwarf .. is more needed?
    Should I copy you and have less con?

    2. I thought i'd repost another nice post by Shade that showed glancing blow damage:
    10dmg or less = 1-3
    20dmg or less = 4-6
    30dmg or less = 7-12
    40 dmg or less 13-18
    50 dmg or less 19-24
    60+ dmg (maximum possible basicly) can get you over 25, highest i can get is 30. WF with power attack VI might get a little higher.

    Looks like the warforged power attack enhancement (+6damage) will add almost +3glancing blow damage. However he is at -3 to hit. Does the -3to hit extra miss chance change the DPS equation much? Do WF Barbarians miss much with power attack on ? DId anyone do the math including glancing blow damage? Perhaps the warforged enhancement for powerattack is overkill at high end content because -3 to hit lowers dps more than 6damage and extra glancing blow dmg???

  7. #27
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Well for me it is a 28 point build, so the choice for max con wasn't there. But even so if I rerolled as a 32 I would only go 18 con. Because really hp only get you so far, at a certain point - anymore is just overkill.. Because eventually the monsters will wear you down and you'll need a heal, so having a good buffer to make those heals easy on the cleric is nice - but right now that break point is about 400 hp. Anymore doesn't benefit the cleric, it just ends up his full heal doesn't quite put you to full (and some clerics like keeping people full so he might cast another heal actually wasting mana due to your insane hp)

    Right now as setup with a +2 con tome I have 440 hp raged - with about 18 minuits of rage.. Plenty to keep raged 100% of the time. This is just how I setup - its not even max enhancements, I could gain another +3 con and extend rage IV for something like 26 minuits of rage and 500 hp - buts its unnessary. Sometimes with double madstone or bloodrage ill be over 500 hp, but it won't make any real difference.

    So yea, wisdom all the way. Will save you can never get enough of and can mean instant death in many cases, as wellit also helps your spot skill - which teeters just on the brink of being able to spot mobs with just greater hero on, so the 1-2 points matter there.

    Dex i got 20 with a +3 tome and its great. Doesn't benefit my AC anymore then 16 would, but reflex saves are important and are the lowest overall save on this build. The couple more +to hit for my dwarven thrower is nice too, some mobs just dont come down to melee. And a bit of balance skill - something I neglected to put any ranks into, so thats important to keep it at a reasonable level.

    WF Power attack.. Yea really can't handle another -3 to hit, wouldn't be able to hit the broadside of a barn with it. Really I only recommend even the xtra -3 for power attack III for when your maxxed out with your +2 str tome and preferably the +1 to hit bracers or battle coin too. I use bother the +1 hit bracers and littany of the dead for another +1 to hit, with a +3 str tome and there are still a couple mobs that i might need to swing 3,4,5 or better on. Mostly really tough bosses like Demon Queen on elite. So I wouldn't want another -3 to hit.
    Last edited by Shade; 11-24-2007 at 07:49 PM.

  8. #28
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    Default Couldn't help but notice

    I see you say to take the barbarian power attack I as your second AP, but you can't take that until you get power attack at level 3, just respec at lvl 3 and take a boost instead? Thats what I did at least, nice being able to respec.

  9. #29
    Time Bandit Renegade66's Avatar
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    Has the math been done to know whether a dual wielding Barbarian with Power Attack and twin Deathnips or a Deathnip and Greater Bane Weapon can out DPS a THF?

    I have a THF human with SoS and a TWF with Twin Deathnips. I'd say that my TWF now can out DPS the THF, especially on single targets including Red Bosses. High DR will even things out a bit, but I still think the TWF might outpace a bit. Of course there are no glancing blows though.

    Deathnip - +5 Heavy Pick, Maiming, Seeker +8 (Crit: 19-20)

    I'm critting on a 15 for 130-200 dmg when dual wielding. Using a greater bane weapon is nice because you get the benefit of the Seeker +8 from the Deathnip.

    I have a math degree, but not the patience to figure this out. I'd love to see an analysis.

    Ren
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  10. #30
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade66 View Post
    I have a math degree, but not the patience to figure this out. I'd love to see an analysis.
    Blah pretty off topic, but i'll reply anyways.

    Not even someone smart with a 'math degree' can do any accurate comparison between 2 vastly different combat styles using just plain math. The only accurate way to do such a test would be ingame against a static HP monster that respawned.. Which is very difficult to test as we do not have any of those around (mob HP is usually rolled semi random on dungeon generation)

    Regardless, the idea of TWF beating THF in the current game by any real margin is laughable. I've grouped with several players who have the dual deathnips and TWF stuff on there barbarians (often due to explots..) and they never came even close to my killcounts. Which isn't really an accurate test as speed and player skill have much larger impacts on that then anything else, but still goes to show they are nothing special and can't make up for the speed or accuracy of mass killing of a well played THF build.

    SoS these days is a outdated weapon and poor comparison imo. Someone using a SoS vs me using a greater bane greataxe won't even register in the killcounts, he'd be dozens if not hundreds of kills behind. There that much slower and the lack of dwarf axe enhancements really add up.

    I just find THF to be superior in DPS and especially overall speed and ease of targetting vs the much more clumsy TWF style...
    ....For now anyways, in mod6 the overall balance of the 2 combat styles will mostly likely change with the introduction of superior weapon styles. They will hopefully be balanced enough to keep this kind of discussion as debatable as it is now, as they should be.. But only time will tell.

    Anyways, this topis is for my THF build, so kindly create a new one is you wish to continue this.

  11. #31
    Time Bandit Renegade66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    Blah pretty off topic, but i'll reply anyways.

    Not even someone smart with a 'math degree' can do any accurate comparison between 2 vastly different combat styles using just plain math. The only accurate way to do such a test would be ingame against a static HP monster that respawned.. Which is very difficult to test as we do not have any of those around (mob HP is usually rolled semi random on dungeon generation)

    Regardless, the idea of TWF beating THF in the current game by any real margin is laughable. I've grouped with several players who have the dual deathnips and TWF stuff on there barbarians (often due to explots..) and they never came even close to my killcounts. Which isn't really an accurate test as speed and player skill have much larger impacts on that then anything else, but still goes to show they are nothing special and can't make up for the speed or accuracy of mass killing of a well played THF build.

    SoS these days is a outdated weapon and poor comparison imo. Someone using a SoS vs me using a greater bane greataxe won't even register in the killcounts, he'd be dozens if not hundreds of kills behind. There that much slower and the lack of dwarf axe enhancements really add up.

    I just find THF to be superior in DPS and especially overall speed and ease of targetting vs the much more clumsy TWF style...
    ....For now anyways, in mod6 the overall balance of the 2 combat styles will mostly likely change with the introduction of superior weapon styles. They will hopefully be balanced enough to keep this kind of discussion as debatable as it is now, as they should be.. But only time will tell.

    Anyways, this topis is for my THF build, so kindly create a new one is you wish to continue this.
    What's laughable is elitest, condescending tones (not that I have any room to talk). Hey, I thought you squelched me after I took you up on your THF vs TWF challenge and you ran for the hills? I still can't believe you didn't think of Risia before making that challenge. It still makes me smile.

    Anyway, there's nothing laughable about my stance.

    Strength: Equal
    Weapon base to hit: THF gets +2 to hit over deathnip due to Dwarf axe to hit bonus
    Weapon base avg dmg (non crit): Deatnip 9.5 (d8+5), THF 20 (d12+1+3d6+2 axe enh)
    Power Attack: THF gets full str bonus where TWF only gets half
    Attacks/round: THF 4, TWF 7 (will go to 8 in mod6?)
    Critical THF: Crits on 17 for 3x dmg
    Critical TWF: Deathnip Crits on 15 for 4x dmg, Seeker +8 4x, and Maiming 3d6

    Deathnips have less dmg but nearly twice as many attacks and 4x crit on a 15 vs 3x on a 17 (or SoS with 3x on a 13). Who said the Sword of Shadow was obsolete? 13 vs 17 crit and not ever having to swap out makes this a great option.

    Other considerations:
    - THF gets the benefit of glancing blows, but also the additional aggro generation. Charm one of the mob and a TWF can kill them off taking aggro on one at a time where a THF will aggro the entire mob.
    - THF do better at bypassing high DR
    - One must also question the feasibility of a swiss army barbarian owning a greater bane greataxe for every monster type. There is time lost finding the right weapon to equip (assuming you have it). Also, with mixed mobs, swapping weapons in the middle of battle is incredibly cumbersome with many lost attacks in doing so. This GREATLY benefits using a SoS or dual wielding Deathnips as no swapping is required.
    - TWF can swiss army barbarian as well dual wielding a greater bane with the deathnip and with the greater bane getting the benefit of the Seeker +8.
    - Another huge consideration is that TWF can use w/p rapiers that crit on a 13. No melee can kill non red bosses faster. Elf/Drow also get +2 to hit with rapiers, which negates dwarf axe enhancement.

    Again, the math is needed here, but my contention is that TWF not only stat kills the fastest, but also rivals THF in DPS now with the advent of the Deathnip.
    Last edited by Renegade66; 12-07-2007 at 10:34 AM.
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  12. #32

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    TWF and THF Barbs are each fun. Each are different playstyle. Shade's barbarian is very entertaining to watch. Buff him and watch him go.

    My THF barb has the DR for defense, and Con for rages. Pretty much used Shades/Mal's barb build. Their template is a rock solid build. I still use SOS because hard to find good greater bane axes.

    I like TWF. I made a TWF ranger (but I'm not crazy about dex based char), a TWF paladin using khopeshes, a TWF dorf fighter with dorf axes. So now trying TWF barb (newer build, trying to figure things out), because of higher dex reqs, and max ST, his con is lower. I also used human versatilty to help with stats (since don't have +6 items), so had to sacrifice alot of things.

    Fully buff both barbs will do alot of damage, which does more? I think are fairly close. Like others have stated, each of pro's.
    THF with glancing blows on multiple mobs. (can get Cleave line too).
    TWF with more attacks, and with deathnips also do alot of damage.

    Bottom line is both builds are fun. I don't really think in terms of one is better then other, just different way of playing.
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  13. #33
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    A twf gets 8 attacks if they are really good with twitch (but the 1st at -4), or at least some of the time.

    A twf also benefits more from having a bard in the group.

    I believe a twf gets no power attack damage bonus with the offhand, but retains the penalty.

    You could also factor in against crit immune monsters (when you pretty much have to use greater banes).

  14. #34
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    I agreee with alot thats been said, however greater bane in theory could be used on both hands with a twf.And we all know what happpens on a big six item with that many swings...
    big thf = more damage
    big twf = more kills
    I don't see the point in disputing this on a min/max build.

    I think it's just an e-peen thing...I have a thf barb and guess what... it aint the optimal barb in most cases.

    "Ce la vie"
    Last edited by hennebux; 12-07-2007 at 11:29 PM.
    This post(er) has been modified from its original version. It has been formatted to fit your screen, edited for content, and to run in the time allowed...

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  15. #35
    Community Member MondoGrunday's Avatar
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    the twf barbs take a more skilled player to equal the kills of a boring thf. thf are cookie cutter with very little variance. maybe a few ehnancements and a feat or two but overall they are all built the same with very little creativity. I have one too, so I understand that to excell at dps, there is really only one way to build a thf. comparing dps exactly as it is Id give the dps to the thf, but if you look at damage per round I think they are very similar. basically fewer bigger swings to more smaller ones, but damgage output and kill rates are pretty close if played by equally equiped and competent players.
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  16. #36
    Community Member Shade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMark View Post
    I see you say to take the barbarian power attack I as your second AP, but you can't take that until you get power attack at level 3, just respec at lvl 3 and take a boost instead? Thats what I did at least, nice being able to respec.
    Yea I didn't really use that order as I leveld up since I leveld this character over a year ago before we had this enhancement system.. So the order is not really 100% correct or optimized - for now take them as you see fit. Overall for the power attack enhancement its probably best to wait and take those once you get more optimized equipment since the to hit penalty can hurt more at low levels then it helps. But once you got a planar gird and +6 str item you should be fine to max the line.

    I'll probably update the build for mod6 and post a more optimized order for everyone.

  17. #37
    Community Member Cold_Stele's Avatar
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    Edited out - posted in wrong thread.
    Last edited by Cold Stele; 12-12-2007 at 07:39 AM.

  18. #38
    Community Member Voska's Avatar
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    Default Hey

    I was wondering, why not throw 1 fighter in for stunning blow. Obviously ridiculus str plays into raising the dc. With a +10 item and a 44 str, thats alreadY DC 37. One obvious problem is the loss of crit range and i dont know if in general the only monstesr that survive are bosses, who are most likely immune to stunning blow anyway. Just throwing an idea out there.

  19. #39
    Time Bandit Renegade66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voska View Post
    I was wondering, why not throw 1 fighter in for stunning blow. Obviously ridiculus str plays into raising the dc. With a +10 item and a 44 str, thats alreadY DC 37. One obvious problem is the loss of crit range and i dont know if in general the only monstesr that survive are bosses, who are most likely immune to stunning blow anyway. Just throwing an idea out there.
    The loss of crit range is huge. If you want to take stunning blow, make a human instead of a dwarf. You get the extra feat plus another point of strength. You lose the axe enhancements, but can spend those points on other valuable things that humans get. Stunning blow works on orange bosses. Just not reds and purples. Great feat.
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  20. #40
    Community Member Deragoth's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Having a good time with a slight variation of Shade's build. Can't hardly go wrong with it.
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