Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1
    Community Member Mhykke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    5,537

    Default New Metamagic system info:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarion View Post
    These have just cleared QA and I've appended them to yesterday's WDA.

    Other
    • NEW - The metamagic system in Dungeons and Dragons Online has undergone significant changes in Module 5.0: Accursed Ascension.

      The biggest change that casters will discover is that each metamagic feat other than Heighten Spell now has a fixed spell point cost increase rather than multiplying the spell point cost of a spell as they did before Module 5.0. These surcharges are as follows:

      Empower Spell: +15 SP
      Empower Healing Spell: +10 SP
      Enlarge Spell: +10 SP
      Eschew Materials: +2 SP
      Extend Spell: +10 SP
      Maximize Spell: +25 SP
      Quicken Spell: +10 SP
      Heighten Spell: Special (Changes base cost of your spell to that of your highest level spells)

      These cost increases are cumulative if multiple metamagic feats are active simultaneously, so a Quickened, Maximized, Enlarged Fireball would cost:
      20 (base) + 10 (Quicken) + 25 (Maximize) + 10 (Enlarge) = 65 Spell Points

      Improved Metamagic enhancements have all been changed to flat cost reductions on these surcharges. Sorcerer Improved Maximizing III, for instance, has become "Using the Maximize Spell feat costs you 9 fewer spell points." Wizard Improved Heightening II is now "Using the Heighten Spell feat costs you 2 fewer spell points per level of heightening."
    Discuss
    Mhykke(Pldn):Mhykkelle(Srcr):Mykkelle(Rngr):Mhykael(Clrc):Mykke(Brbrn):Mhykel(Ftr):
    Mhykelle(Wzrd):Mhyke(Brd):Mykkael(Rgr/Rog/Barb):Mykkel(Rog):Mhykkaelsan(Mnk):Mhykkael(FVS):Mhykkel(Brd):Markas(Ret.Srcr)

  2. #2
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, SC
    Posts
    233

    Default Hmmm....

    Without breaking out the calculator, this mostly seems to make higher level spells more relevant. There looks to be a slight penalty on the low level spells versus the current system, but not a terrible amount (although Maximize looks a bit high).

    I'm confused as to the point of this one, since the old system seemed OK to me.

    Overall first impression - "meh, so what?".

    .

  3. #3
    Community Member DemonMage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,360

    Default

    Scorching Ray = 15 SP | Empowered = 30 SP, 100% more for 50% more damage | Max = 40 SP, 166% more for 100% more damage | Combo = 55 SP, 266% more for 150% more damage

    Fireball = 20 SP | Empowered = 35 SP, 75% more for 50% more damage | Max = 45 SP, 125% more for 100% more damage | Combo = 60 SP, 200% more for 150% more damage

    Firewall = 25 SP | Empowered = 40 SP, 60% more for 50% more damage | Max = 50 SP, 100% more for 100% more damage | Combo = 65 SP, 160%% more for 150% more damage

    Cone of Cold = 30 SP | Empowered = 45 SP, 50% more for 50% more damage | Max = 55 SP, 83% more for 100% more damage | Combo = 70 SP, 133% more for 150% more damage
    Was what I came up with. Makes me want per-spell metamagic even more now. I'm really liking the changes overal. Scorching Ray is actually more efficient fully buffed (55 vs 60). Would love to keep CoC maxed/empowered all the time, so that when I need to throw it out, it's going to be a powerful one. Without having everything always maxed/empowered.

    [Edit] Meh all my combo numbers were off as I made a mistake on Scorching Ray and was being lazy, sorry.
    Last edited by DemonMage; 07-31-2007 at 08:07 PM.
    Caisha Stormweaver - Some class split dependent upon TR needs - Argonnessen
    Twitch, YouTube, Builds

  4. #4
    Community Member RandomToon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    86

    Default

    Overall, makes higher level spells easier on the SP total. Makes buffing somewhat more costly on extended low level spells.

    ---Extend
    Previously, it cost 15 for level 1 and 23 for level 2 spells extended. Now they will cost 20 and 25 respectively, for a net reduction of -5 and -2 SP per spell. Buffing a full party with each elemental resist and blur (36 level 2 spells), then myself with shield, nightshield, jump, and expeditious retreat (4 spells) costs me a total 92 more spell points than before for that casting routine. Not a big deal at 14, but a pretty big deal at level 7...
    Cost of extending level 3 spells remains the same with a reduction of 0.
    Higher level spells become cheaper:
    Lvl Cost
    1 +5
    2 +2
    3 +0
    4 -3
    5 -5
    6 -8
    7 -10
    8 -13
    9 -15
    Good news for higher level spells, but not so good for lower level ones like resist...
    Last edited by RandomToon; 07-31-2007 at 11:53 PM.

  5. #5
    Community Member RandomToon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    86

    Default

    ---Maximize/Empower (assuming no equipment/enhancements)
    The big change here is that spells are cheaper to cast. You get way more castings, since the spell point reduction is so large.
    Costs to cast with empower/maximize are cheaper, except for level 1 spells.
    Compared with version 4.2:

    Lvl Cost for Empower/Maximize Per Spell
    1 +5/+5
    2 +0/-5
    3 -5/-15
    4 -10/-25
    5 -15/-35
    6 -20/-45
    7 -25/-55
    8 -30/-65
    9 -35/-75


    This one is where the meat is. It makes casters VERY powerful. In the 4.2 version, you generally had to sacrifice mana efficieny for burst damage. Here is what I mean - lets assume that you had a level 1 spell that did 10 damage. You would have a Damage Per Spell Point (DPSP) of 1 and 100% Spell Point Efficeny (SPE). When you would Empower that spell under 4.2, you would do .75 DPSP, meaning you had a (SPE) of 75%. When under 4.2 Maximize, you did .67 DPSP, for an SPE of 67%. This pretty much holds true regradless of the spell level.

    Example for 4.2:
    I cast firewall. It normally does 22 damage and costs 25 SP, so has a DPSP of .88 and SPE of 100%.
    If I cast the same firewall under empower, it does 33 damage and costs 50 SP, so has a DPSP of .66 and a SPE of 75%
    If I cast the same firewall under maximize. it does 44 damage and costs 75 SP, so has a DPSP of .59 and a SPE of 67%


    With the version 5 system, you get higher DPSP and higher SPE the higher the level of spell. Eventually, you break 100% efficiency, and all you need to do is avoid overkilling mobs. Maximize and Empower are actually WORSE for casting level 1 spells though, as compared to version 4.2.

    Example for 5.0
    I cast firewall. It normally does 22 damage and costs 25 SP, so has a DPSP of .88 and SPE of 100%.
    If I cast the same firewall under empower, it does 33 damage and costs 40 SP, so has a DPSP of .83 and a SPE of 94%
    If I cast the same firewall under maximize. it does 44 damage and costs 50 SP, so has a DPSP of .88 and a SPE of 100%

    Notice that you now deal exactly the same damage per mana under maximize? And you kill stuff faster too...

    ---More Numbers...
    Lets assume that none of the spell damage is changing. Lets look at Spell Point Efficiency as it related to damage. Remeber, this is the ratio of damage that you do per spell point when empowered/maximized as compared to base:

    Lvl Spell Poing Efficiency
    Empower/Maximize
    ~ .75/.67 Regardless of Spell Level for 4.2
    1 .6/.57
    2 .75/.75
    3 .85/.88
    4 .94/1
    5 1/1.09
    6 1.05/1.17
    7 1.09/1.23
    8 1.13/1.29
    9 1.15/1.33

    Basically, as long as you aren't going to kill a mob outright, it is always better to Empower a fifth level or higher damage spell, and Maximize a fouth level or higher spell. Also, if Maximize won't kill it outright, it is always better to maximize third level or higher spells as opposed to empower.

    Of course, this is without factoring in items, enhancements, resistances, vulnerabilities, etc. and doesn't consider doing Maximize AND Empower, just one or the other...
    Overall, caster damage per second is the same, we can just cast twice as many Maximized Delayed Blast Fireballs =)

    Disclaimer - I am a product of the public school system. You have been warned...
    Last edited by RandomToon; 08-01-2007 at 12:39 AM.

  6. #6
    Community Member Lucian_Navarro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    443

    Default My 2 Cents

    Look at the bright side!

    At least now Eschew Materials is no longer worthless!

    I just might pick it up again.

    Besides... so you take a penalty for using Maximized Magic Missiles... put a Superior Potency 1 item in one hand and a Superior Kentic Lore item in the other and settle for 1.3 megaton strike rather than a 1.6 megaton nuke.

    ZEIRA
    "The Angry Blue Faerie"
    Last edited by Lucian Navarro; 08-01-2007 at 03:35 PM.

  7. #7

    Default

    It makes stacking metamagic way better than it was, and in some cases it makes the others better.

    It does mean meta magic isn't so great with level 1 and 2 spells, but that more than balances out as you get higher level spells.

    All around: I'd say its a boon for wizards.
    Happy Host of DDOcast The Dungeons and Dragons Online Podcast
    Member of the Umber Hulks and The Madborn of Thelanis
    You can see my many builds listed in this thread.

  8. #8
    Community Member Aladon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Hmmm. Extending buffs is just a convenience, increasing the amount of time between the inconvenience of recasting them. There is no game reason that they cannot be cast w/o being extended, then recast when they expire. So raising the cost of extending these kinds of spells adds irritation while making no difference whatsoever to the actual game outcomes. This particular subset of the announced changes doesn't seem likely to win many friends.

    Then of course there is the blinding brilliance of causing massive customer anger by nerfing spell durations of certain AOE spells to reduce their effectiveness, then making metamagic feats to extend, empower and maximize said spells cheaper.

    With these regular and seemingly carefully planned blows to customer morale, we'd best get prepared for player exodus and server merges in the future. No wait...

    Seriously, Turbine, from up here in the cheap seats some of these changes just seem like annoying fiddling with a long established system. It is clear in the last several updates that good and thoughful changes have been made. But at the same time other changes have taken place that seem marginal, contradictory and ill-considered. Since it's pretty clear your resources for this game are shrinking (or so one would deduce from server merge), perhaps a better plan would be to focus on bread and butter improvements to player experience (like, for example, the much needed and appreciated improvement to the auction interface) and on additional content. Messing with the core game system at this point seems petty, wasteful and unwise.

    Aladon
    Currently Active:
    Grimmage WIZ14/ROG1 // Grimjustice CLR12/FTR2
    Inactive: Lots of Grim*'s plus Arier & Devling
    Ghallanda Server // Fellowship of the Bling

  9. #9
    Community Member Deragoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South-Western Ohio (Northtucky)
    Posts
    517

    Default

    I'm pretty excited about it. Damage spells are back in force .

    Empowered/Extended/Maximized Firewall...

    15 + 10 + 25 + 25 = 75sp. Nice

    2 levels of Enhancements...

    11 + 10 + 19 + 25 = 65sp. Ok, that's cool (55sp un-extended)

    Empower/Heightened/Maximized Cone of Cold...

    15 + 40 + 25 = 80sp. Once again, nice.

    So, for 2 levels of enhancements (1 level on heighten)...

    11 + 36 + 19 = 66SP. Holy ****!
    Vilified -Depraven - Frontloader - Primacy
    aka Villainous
    - Pre-June'08.

  10. #10
    Community Member Aladon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Deragoth View Post
    I'm pretty excited about it. Damage spells are back in force .
    Right. But this is the same old ****. Turbine proposes a change to the game system. Most folks look at it and say, "Is this good for me?". If they think it is, they think the change is a great idea. Usually it's good for some things and bad for others. If the folks it's bad for are in the minority, they get drowned out. Very few people ask, "Is this a good idea or a necessary change?". They get drowned out. A few months later comes a chorus of "Nerf the xxx", xxx being some unintended consequence of the previous system tweak. Then comes the nerf and further hand wringing and angst.

    In the mean time, alert players are forced to change their gear, feats, enhancements, etc twice (once for the change, once for the nerf). Hyper-aggressive build-masters may actually have to make entirely new toons (twice).

    Why, why, why?

    What is so wrong with the meta-magic system costs that a change after 17 months is needed? And didn't Turbine just nerf spells that had been around forever, deliberately making them LESS powerful? So now, they reverse nerf the meta-magic system to make them MORE powerful?

    Some grownup at Turbine needs to say, "Stop fiddling with the system. Your nitpicking is making the players crazy, accomplishing nothing material and wasting resources best spent on things that truly improve the game."

    Regards,

    Aladon
    Currently Active:
    Grimmage WIZ14/ROG1 // Grimjustice CLR12/FTR2
    Inactive: Lots of Grim*'s plus Arier & Devling
    Ghallanda Server // Fellowship of the Bling

  11. #11
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladon View Post
    Right. But this is the same old ****. Turbine proposes a change to the game system. Most folks look at it and say, "Is this good for me?". If they think it is, they think the change is a great idea. Usually it's good for some things and bad for others. If the folks it's bad for are in the minority, they get drowned out. Very few people ask, "Is this a good idea or a necessary change?". They get drowned out. A few months later comes a chorus of "Nerf the xxx", xxx being some unintended consequence of the previous system tweak. Then comes the nerf and further hand wringing and angst.

    In the mean time, alert players are forced to change their gear, feats, enhancements, etc twice (once for the change, once for the nerf). Hyper-aggressive build-masters may actually have to make entirely new toons (twice).

    Why, why, why?

    What is so wrong with the meta-magic system costs that a change after 17 months is needed? And didn't Turbine just nerf spells that had been around forever, deliberately making them LESS powerful? So now, they reverse nerf the meta-magic system to make them MORE powerful?

    Some grownup at Turbine needs to say, "Stop fiddling with the system. Your nitpicking is making the players crazy, accomplishing nothing material and wasting resources best spent on things that truly improve the game."

    Regards,

    Aladon
    Good post, I don't get it either. Maybe it is the first step in some further refinement of the magic system...but I can't imagine what.

    In some regard it just plain seems pointless, which makes me wonder why they did it.

    And in another regard it seems to be a boost to casters, which also makes me wonder why they did it since it appears to me that casters already rule the high levels.

  12. #12
    Community Member Deragoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South-Western Ohio (Northtucky)
    Posts
    517

    Question I'm curious...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladon View Post
    Right. But this is the same old ****. Turbine proposes a change to the game system. Most folks look at it and say, "Is this good for me?". If they think it is, they think the change is a great idea. Usually it's good for some things and bad for others. If the folks it's bad for are in the minority, they get drowned out. Very few people ask, "Is this a good idea or a necessary change?". They get drowned out. A few months later comes a chorus of "Nerf the xxx", xxx being some unintended consequence of the previous system tweak. Then comes the nerf and further hand wringing and angst.

    In the mean time, alert players are forced to change their gear, feats, enhancements, etc twice (once for the change, once for the nerf). Hyper-aggressive build-masters may actually have to make entirely new toons (twice).

    Why, why, why?

    What is so wrong with the meta-magic system costs that a change after 17 months is needed? And didn't Turbine just nerf spells that had been around forever, deliberately making them LESS powerful? So now, they reverse nerf the meta-magic system to make them MORE powerful?

    Some grownup at Turbine needs to say, "Stop fiddling with the system. Your nitpicking is making the players crazy, accomplishing nothing material and wasting resources best spent on things that truly improve the game."

    Regards,

    Aladon
    Sounds like you have issue with the fact that it changed, not what it changed into. Were you upset when they increased the spell-point progression for Clerics/Sorcerers/wizards? I haven't heard anyone cry nerf for that, yet...

    In fact, what would the argument be for requesting a nerf for this? I'm just curious...

    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Maybe it is the first step in some further refinement of the magic system...but I can't imagine what.
    I think they did it to get ready for the level cap increase, and to address the lack of sustained damage output from casters. After all, Melee characters can swing all day... Not so much for us. I really don't know, but I'll wait and see how it turns out. After all, they can flip it back if the community decides it blows.
    Vilified -Depraven - Frontloader - Primacy
    aka Villainous
    - Pre-June'08.

  13. #13
    Community Member Deragoth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    South-Western Ohio (Northtucky)
    Posts
    517

    Exclamation Sorry, I just noticed this. 2 threads, 2 forums, ugh.

    Tallyn made a good point over in Sorc-Land. I didn't see it until it was pointed out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallyn View Post
    what they are doing is bringing the spells in line with PnP kind of. Check it out


    DDO
    Empower Spell: +15 SP (Equivalent of casting a 2nd level spell)
    Empower Healing Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
    Enlarge Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
    Extend Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 1st level spell)
    Maximize Spell: +25 SP (Equivalent of casting a 4th level spell)
    Quicken Spell: +10 SP (Equivalent of casting a 2nd level spell)
    Eschew Materials: +2 SP

    Pen and Paper
    Empower Spell: uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level
    Enlarge Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels higher than the spell’s actual level
    Extend Spell: uses up a spell slot one levels highe than the spell’s actual level
    Maximize Spell: uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level


    I'm going off base SRD here, so not sure how much empower healing ups the level of a spell, but I'm guessing it is one level.
    Vilified -Depraven - Frontloader - Primacy
    aka Villainous
    - Pre-June'08.

  14. #14

    Default Level increases

    Quote Originally Posted by Aladon View Post
    Right. But this is the same old ****. Turbine proposes a change to the game system. Most folks look at it and say, "Is this good for me?". If they think it is, they think the change is a great idea. Usually it's good for some things and bad for others. If the folks it's bad for are in the minority, they get drowned out. Very few people ask, "Is this a good idea or a necessary change?". They get drowned out. A few months later comes a chorus of "Nerf the xxx", xxx being some unintended consequence of the previous system tweak. Then comes the nerf and further hand wringing and angst.

    In the mean time, alert players are forced to change their gear, feats, enhancements, etc twice (once for the change, once for the nerf). Hyper-aggressive build-masters may actually have to make entirely new toons (twice).

    Why, why, why?

    What is so wrong with the meta-magic system costs that a change after 17 months is needed? And didn't Turbine just nerf spells that had been around forever, deliberately making them LESS powerful? So now, they reverse nerf the meta-magic system to make them MORE powerful?

    Some grownup at Turbine needs to say, "Stop fiddling with the system. Your nitpicking is making the players crazy, accomplishing nothing material and wasting resources best spent on things that truly improve the game."

    Regards,

    Aladon
    I think they're addressing the shortcomings of the system that was set up when the level cap was only level 10. Similar to how SP totals began to be less than the actually costs to cast your new spells, the costs of metamagic feats began to really hurt the caster's ability to use higher level spells. How quickly has the caster's role in the party been to Finger of Death everything that they can without wasting SP. If it can't be FoD'ed, then the melee classes take care of it. Or they cast Scorching Ray and Magic/Force Missile. Most of the high level damage spells are rarely used because it's a good way to get a lot of aggro for not enough damage to warrant it.

    While Turbine is changing a number of things around these levels, I'd expect to see the number of changes begin to grow small again once the cap hits level 18. Pretty much, from there on out, the system is static, with feats taking up the bulk of changes. And since those are fairly set in the number you get, it's much easier to plan on how things will affect the game.

    I, for one, am happy that Turbine is willing to look at previously established systems and revise them when they start to show their age and limitations begin to crop up. Yes, some people micro-manage their characters, playing off every nuance of the system to get every last ounce of power out of it. And yes, those people are going to constantly be upset with ANY change, because it's bound to wreck their character because they need it to be in a completely static environment. But the vast majority of people just adapt because it's not a big deal and celebrate the fact that we're still playing the game.

  15. #15
    Community Member Mad_Bombardier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    10,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Good post, I don't get it either. Maybe it is the first step in some further refinement of the magic system...but I can't imagine what.

    And in another regard it seems to be a boost to casters, which also makes me wonder why they did it since it appears to me that casters already rule the high levels.
    No, this is the second step. Metamagics used to be multiplicative for SP cost and output, and were changed to be additive. However, high level spells are still too cost prohibitive to apply multiple metamagics. So we get Heightened PK, FtS, or FoD with an occasional Otto's thrown in. The system still doesn't work, so they are changing it again.
    Last edited by Mad_Bombardier; 08-03-2007 at 11:37 AM.

  16. #16
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    5,161

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    No, this is the second step. Metamagics used to be multiplicative for SP cost and output, and were changed to be additive. However, high level spells are/still too cost prohibitive to apply multiple metamagics. So we get Heightened PK, FtS, or FoD with an occasional Otto's thrown in. The system still doesn't work, so they are changing it again.
    Well, honestly, they should be.

    People are casting like Level 12 spells...Heightened (to level 7) Empowered Maximized Fireball is a Level 12 spell...not sure if that's a good example, but you get the idea. Of course magic rules, the PnP limits got tossed out the window. Even if that is a purposeful design decision it should strain your resources to cast such a powerful spell. Nobody is making spellcasters drop tactical nukes every single combat, but it's easy, and fast, and unlimited spell points await you in the tavern.
    Last edited by rimble; 08-03-2007 at 11:04 AM.

  17. #17
    Community Member Mad_Bombardier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    10,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Well, honestly, they should be.

    Even if that is a purposeful design decision it should strain your resources to cast such a powerful spell.
    That's the main problem. Compared to mob HP, our triply metamagicked spells are not "powerful," just costly.
    Quote Originally Posted by rimble View Post
    Nobody is making spellcasters drop tactical nukes every single combat, but it's easy, and fast, and unlimited spell points await you in the tavern.
    The high HP of enemies *makes* us leave most damage spells behind at level 5+. Do you know a caster that carries Delayed Blast Fireball? I don't. Except for situational mob vulnerabilities and boss fights, casters in DDO can't efficiently use damage spells. We have few damage options aside from insta-kill spells.

  18. #18
    Community Member Aladon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    290

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier View Post
    -snip-The high HP of enemies *makes* us leave most damage spells behind at level 5+. Do you know a caster that carries Delayed Blast Fireball? I don't. Except for situational mob vulnerabilities and boss fights, casters in DDO can't efficiently use damage spells. We have few damage options aside from insta-kill spells.
    Right. But what particularly strips my gears about this is they just nerfed AoE damage spells, making their duration too short and cool down timer too long to be combat useful. Now they're making them cheaper to empower, heighten and EXTEND? So we're going to start using WoF, CC, etc all the time again?

    I just don't get it. From here is seems like fiddling with no real point, goal or compass. That -might- be ok except that those of us who take performance seriously have to re-engineer our toons every time it happens. Some of that adaptation is quite expensive.

    I hated the original HV nerf, thought it was a really bad idea then and still do, but at least I get what they were trying to do. Shortening spell durations and cheapening metamagic extend in two consecutive patches seems... dangerously random.

    One thing it is not is FUN, that is for certain.

    Aladon
    Currently Active:
    Grimmage WIZ14/ROG1 // Grimjustice CLR12/FTR2
    Inactive: Lots of Grim*'s plus Arier & Devling
    Ghallanda Server // Fellowship of the Bling

  19. #19
    Founder Xyfiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    2,724

    Default

    Empowered maximized Inciendary clouds are in my future...
    85 sps for the equivalent of a maximized firewall with a solid fog aoe

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload