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  1. #1

    Default Yup, Turn undead still useless

    So the other night I pulled a +5 Sacred Fullplate of Command as an end reward (trust me the rest was even worse). I have a friend who is a Turn Undead based cleric (he likes using DVs and so forth). He's got a decent Charisma base, is level 14, wore this armor and also has the gloves from the Stormreaver raid (they give a total +4 bonus to your turns). Well.. we thought it'd be fun to see what a maxed out turning cleric can do with enhancements and what not. So he went into Dead Predators on Elite. the undead are around 9-12 in that quest for the most part.

    I bet you already know what happened when he hit the old turn undead button. You got it. A bunch of pretty lights and not much else. just reafirming how useless Turn undead still is here. Nothing further.
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  2. #2
    Community Member The_Cataclysm's Avatar
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    Just so you know, sacred doesn't stack with the gauntlets.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cataclysm View Post
    Just so you know, sacred doesn't stack with the gauntlets.
    Oh I know. But hey... so many other things are buggy ya never know. I meant it mostly for the Command aspect.
    Luthen || Eldormadoh || Luthian || Theodread || Madmardigan || Whillow || Earnur || Halbarad || Adnakhor
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  4. #4
    Community Member The_Cataclysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luthen View Post
    Oh I know. But hey... so many other things are buggy ya never know. I meant it mostly for the Command aspect.
    Command doesn't affect turns at all.

  5. #5
    Community Member brianohu2005's Avatar
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    Default Turn Undead

    What I don't understand, is if they are going to make it a class feature, then make it a USEFUL one. What is the point of selling it as one of the things cleric can do if they can't do it. I've got a 13 level cleric with a decent Charisma that has never been able to turn either....at least not well enough to bother. I even tried going back to old quests that were alot lower level and it still didn't turn enough to make it worth it.

    ....although Hold Person now seems to be working better and it wasnt' working very well for awhile.
    Last edited by brianohu2005; 07-01-2007 at 07:36 PM.
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  6. #6

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    The only real way to 'fix' it, would be to change HD to CR. Not just for turning, but for many spells as well. The spells and turning work fine for PnP, but we face epic mobs on a daily basis. And those are just the peons....
    So many idiots, so few comets....

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrin View Post
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  7. #7
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    The real reason Turning is useless in DDO is a game design problem. Turning is a real all-or-nothing effect; either the turn succeeds and the monsters are destroyed or feared (total victory), or the turn fails and nothing happens at all.

    For game balance, it's difficult to make encounters that will challenge groups who both have and don't have such a powerful effect. So the tendency towards solving that is to design monsters such that turning barely ever works.

    The better way to fix it is to step away from accuracy to the PnP rules and give other, lesser benefits turning could have. For example, undeads who resist the turn could still be debuffed for -2 or -4 for a minute or so. That's a substantial combat benefit for the players, but it doesn't win the fight all on its own.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    The better way to fix it is to step away from accuracy to the PnP rules and give other, lesser benefits turning could have. For example, undeads who resist the turn could still be debuffed for -2 or -4 for a minute or so. That's a substantial combat benefit for the players, but it doesn't win the fight all on its own.
    And this should be easy enough to do without outright slaughtering the D&D rules via the enhancement system. Since the enhancement system is all on top of everything else anyway.
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  9. #9
    Community Member The_Cataclysm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    The real reason Turning is useless in DDO is a game design problem. Turning is a real all-or-nothing effect; either the turn succeeds and the monsters are destroyed or feared (total victory), or the turn fails and nothing happens at all.

    For game balance, it's difficult to make encounters that will challenge groups who both have and don't have such a powerful effect. So the tendency towards solving that is to design monsters such that turning barely ever works.

    The better way to fix it is to step away from accuracy to the PnP rules and give other, lesser benefits turning could have. For example, undeads who resist the turn could still be debuffed for -2 or -4 for a minute or so. That's a substantial combat benefit for the players, but it doesn't win the fight all on its own.
    That is a really great idea

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    Thank god it doesnt work good, I hate chasing feared monsters..

  11. #11
    Community Member Gangwulfe's Avatar
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    At lv 14 Collette has Turn Undead 1 enhancement. I also have a sheild with sacred on it, just for turning that I switch to. This means, even level turns for a Paladin.

    26 Cha - easy to get the + 4 level Mod. I usually hit around 17 HD or so. The Giant Skeletons in The new content, I have seen me turn on a 2+. I have actually seen me turn 2 at once.

    It's not broken, if you have a good Cha, and you watch the HD.

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  12. #12
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    really.......

    thats pretty good..cause I have a level 13 pali with 30 charisma and I cant turn anything, or rather I have not turned anything, the fact that 1- I dont have a sacred item ...and 2- I dont try very often because I think Im gunna fail may have something to do with it. Till now every time Ive tried, I get nadda

  13. #13
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    i have a 12 cleric/ 2 pally, his Char is high due to his pallyness and he has sacred armor, I couldn't turn stuff in Delira's ellite today.

    if it wasn't for DVs they would be disscarded entirely.

  14. #14
    Community Member Ithrani's Avatar
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    Default Real Turning

    When you Turn it should have an area effect granted, but it should be like a haste spell area, either it is the target and the area around or centered on the caster. When targeted it makes a direct turn attempt against that target if the attempt succeeds to turn the target it runs away and then cowers or maybe is destroyed, any left over HD of turn damage attempts to turn any others in the area. If it does not work then it tries to affect the next highest level target in the area and rinse repeat. If centered on the Cleric then it tries to turn the highest level undead in the area, then again rinse repeat.

    It is probably difficult for Turbine to code this. What really sucks is that they probably won't take the time to fix it. But Turn Undead is hardly useless, you can turn some creature, destroy or make them cower. My 9th level cleric can turn and destroy ever regular wight, cower the armored wights, priest wights, and spectres on sorruwdusk. His Chr was only an 18 then I have some enhancements and stuff for DV's and extra turning. More of a Porta-Shrine
    then a Turn Undead cleric and I think is can come in handy but has to be lower level stuff and it should not be that way.
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    Community Member Yaga_Nub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfvyra View Post
    The only real way to 'fix' it, would be to change HD to CR. Not just for turning, but for many spells as well. The spells and turning work fine for PnP, but we face epic mobs on a daily basis. And those are just the peons....
    That wouldn't do anything Elfvyra. In another post I mentioned something about HD and a dev responded that they have kept the HD the same as in the MM but then they add bonus HP to the mobs to make the tougher. So a 13 HD Ghast for instance still is truly only 13 HD but they might give it a 300 HP bonus on top of that.
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  16. #16
    Community Member Hendrik's Avatar
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    Useless?

    Not IMO. I turn the **** undead on the Desert Surface up to and including the Undead Giants in the Reaver Pre-raid.

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain1 View Post
    really.......

    thats pretty good..cause I have a level 13 pali with 30 charisma and I cant turn anything, or rather I have not turned anything, the fact that 1- I dont have a sacred item ...and 2- I dont try very often because I think Im gunna fail may have something to do with it. Till now every time Ive tried, I get nadda
    Sounds like you "...lack conviction to perform turning this undead..."

    j/k

    On another note, I am making a undead specced Pali, currently lvl 8, 12 turns, I use divine light, and turn undead. I have a sacred ring I wear, and my Charisma is 24. I can only turn the undead in Delera's on Norm, but Divine light works great. Can't wait to get lvl 2, and 3 of it.

    I am having fun with the character, and isnt thats what its all about?
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  18. #18
    Community Member OKCRandy1's Avatar
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    Default Keep tweaking turn-undead

    I agree with Gimpster's suggestions. I'm glad to read some have found turn undead useful, at level appropriate content I've not turned anything with my lvl 9 cleric.
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  19. #19
    Founder Ziggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain1 View Post
    really.......

    thats pretty good..cause I have a level 13 pali with 30 charisma and I cant turn anything, or rather I have not turned anything, the fact that 1- I dont have a sacred item ...and 2- I dont try very often because I think Im gunna fail may have something to do with it. Till now every time Ive tried, I get nadda
    Thats because you are turing as a level 10 cleric.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/pa...htm#turnUndead
    Turn Undead (Su)

    When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
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  20. #20
    Founder Shaamis's Avatar
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    Charisma is very important in turning Undead, as you can see here:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/spe...OrRebukeUndead

    Not only is it instrumental in how many turns per rest, but the max HD, and even the amount of undead HD you turn, are all tied to it.

    I think (not sure) the +2 sacred bonus adds to your turning level, which adds into your max turning HD, and how many HD you are able to affect.

    A cleric with Maxxed Charisma is the best turning weapon, followed closely by a paladin, (of course)

    Paladins main stat is Charisma though, so it's a toss-up in my mind.
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