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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Absolutely, casual users are relevant. But casual users (who have been subscribed more than a few months) have characters higher than level 10. Having no character above level 10 marks you as a sub-casual user.
    Or it marks you as a brand new player who's only been on for a couple of months or so. I've run into quite a few new players in the last month. Imagine how much of a richer first impression the game makes with all the options coming up in level now compared to how it was just a year ago.

    You build anything from the foundation up. You're asking them to put high end furnishings in the penthouse when they're still plugging holes in the basement.

    This game will gain and keep more members for having good low to mid-level content - and the players who are still demanding more high level stuff will be the ones benefitting in the long run. Why?

    They will have more people to group with.
    The game will have more of a budget to churn out content with.
    Expansions of every sort can be pushed out faster or with more content cause they can afford to increase staff.

    Just churning out high end content to keep the few people busy who've capped out 7 characters per server won't do any of that.

    They're doing a good job of shoring up all aspects of the game. They're doing it as quickly as they can. They're doing it in a way that hopefully will actually grow their options to do more over time.

    Its time to stop the "me first" myopic vision thing - and start looking to the long term health of this game.

  2. #62
    Founder Vi'Aed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Absolutely not. The amount of XP is irrelevant to high-level characters. XP is too easy to get to matter.
    The point is NOT that capped players can get XP but that the XP allotment defined the appropriate level of the quest. If a 13-14 player would be assigned XP from the quest then that is a quest appropriate for them to be running.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    The only kind of real reward high-level characters can get is loot, and the only place to get loot is from quests that are not lower level than existing quests. At this time, the level cap is 14, and any quest containing chests below level 14 does not qualify as high-level content.

    There is a +1 loot bonus coming up this week. Remember the last +1 loot bonus? The only quest was Prison of the Planes, because it's level 16 on elite. Contrast that with the previous +1 loot bonus, back when the level cap was only 12. At that time, there were three viable quests for high-end loot: Tomb of the Wizard-king, Relic of a Sovereign Past, and Court of Laliat.

    Turbine has to wake up and understand that the core of gameplay is risk/reward. Reward=(XP+loot), but at level-cap XP is no longer a factor so gameplay reduces to risk/loot. New quests should be added based primarily on where they fit in the risk/loot spectrum, and everything else built around that.
    And bingo... there is the issue. You want new and different loot runs. I pray that Turbine does not take that view. That way leads to Monty-haul. Farming, in any shape, is not conducive to an MMO. Encouraging it will kill the social environment. They have enough problem with that now.

    The reward is the game play. XP, level progression, & loot are there to add spice to the game play, not the other way around.

    New content needs to be spread out across all of the levels, so it is accessible to everyone as they advance, not just to the top level characters who are just going to grind through it for loot. I am not even sure what the point of developing content for those players is. They don't seem to give a rats ass about it, to them it is purely an impediment to their 14th paralyzer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Prison of the Planes elite sets the baseline at an average of 6 minutes per level 16 chest. New quests need to be calibrated against that standard... they don't need to follow the exact same loot-per-minute, but that should be the starting point for tuning.
    For the love of God no! Never, ever, design a quest around the loot. Loot and its locations should be determined organically by the content. Places where and how it makes sense in the quest.

    Using PoP as any sort of metric is just ludicrous. PoP is mis-designed. It is an error. What was a nice concept has devolved into a loot farm because the whole quest is so compartmentalized it is easily exploitable. They have worked hard to maintain PoP without major redesigns... but I won't be surprised to see any changes in there.
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  3. #63
    Community Member sabs's Avatar
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    For the difficulty, POP should only have 1 chest.

  4. #64
    Founder Vi'Aed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claver View Post

    I would go with the vast majority.

    I vastly underestimated my insignificance.
    The majority on the forums and the majority in the game are two completely different things. Turbine built this game for the casual gamer. They know any long term success is going to come from that group because the game is targeted at the 25+ crowd.

    They will listen to the folks on the forums, as they tend to have a lot of great ideas. However those ideas are certainly biased toward power gaming.

    i would be very surprised if the voice of a casual gamer is not not very valued by Turbine at this point. Keep talking.

    Personally I am a more than casual gamer, and I find it very interesting to hear from that segment. I am not a 8 chr capped player either, so I find both ends interesting to hear.
    Bogenbroom's DDO Wishlist Bogenbroom is logged in the wrong account and posting again...
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwolf View Post
    Or it marks you as a brand new player who's only been on for a couple of months or so. I've run into quite a few new players in the last month. Imagine how much of a richer first impression the game makes with all the options coming up in level now compared to how it was just a year ago.
    It's barely any different. They get 4 level 1 tutorial miniquests, and the harbor walls are rearranged a little... but there aren't substantial new quests they'll see at level 1-5. There's Cerulean Hills and Searing Heights, but those hardly mean anything, and won't see much use.

    The biggest improvement they made to playing a lowbie since release is actually the XP rebalancing pass that made a larger number of low-level quests viable in terms of XP per minute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwolf View Post
    You build anything from the foundation up. You're asking them to put high end furnishings in the penthouse when they're still plugging holes in the basement.

    This game will gain and keep more members for having good low to mid-level content - and the players who are still demanding more high level stuff will be the ones benefitting in the long run. Why?
    That's rather delusional. DDO is not in the kind of product life-stage where players are testing it but unsubscribing because they don't like the low-level quests. But even if it was, these new additions wouldn't help.

    The new low/mid-level quests are not majorly different from existing low/mid-level quests. A person who doesn't find the existing quests sufficiently fun to play up to level 12+ won't have his opinion changed by being given more of the same. Either you'll like the kinds of quests it has now, or you won't; and Turbine doesn't have the resources to make wholely original missions that don't resemble the previous ones in gameplay and artwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwolf View Post
    Just churning out high end content to keep the few people busy who've capped out 7 characters per server won't do any of that.
    It's the people with 2-3 capped characters they have to worry about. The ones who are getting bored there wasn't a new quest for them for over 2 months now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwolf View Post
    Its time to stop the "me first" myopic vision thing - and start looking to the long term health of this game.
    Oh, I am. And if DDO cannot maintain novel high-level content at at least twice the rate it has for the past 3 months, there will be no long term health.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vi'Aed View Post
    The point is NOT that capped players can get XP but that the XP allotment defined the appropriate level of the quest. If a 13-14 player would be assigned XP from the quest then that is a quest appropriate for them to be running.
    Whether the quest is appropriate to give you XP at level 13-14 is irrelevant to it being high-level content. Because hitting the XP cap is easy, a quest which has no numerical reward to an XP-capped character does not give him anything to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vi'Aed View Post
    And bingo... there is the issue. You want new and different loot runs.
    To deny that the endgame of DDO is loot is ludicrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vi'Aed View Post
    For the love of God no! Never, ever, design a quest around the loot. Loot and its locations should be determined organically by the content. Places where and how it makes sense in the quest.
    That is just too painfully ignorant to respond to right now. Maybe I can summon enough pedagogy to explain how wrong that is. But basically, saying such a thing demonstrates a deep and profound ignorance of game design.

    Using PoP as any sort of metric is just ludicrous. PoP is mis-designed. It is an error.
    Yes, like I keep saying, it was a mistake. But it exists. The mistake won't go away unless something it is actively removed. If they don't adjust the loot rate from Prison of the Planes, then they must use it as the baseline for any new loot.

    However, that's apparently a moot point, because there's no indication we'll get more level 14 quests.

  7. #67

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    For me the one thing that has me most involed for the longest amount of time is level cap increases...I think the two level idea is just the right stepping stone each time but...we need one every module. No way around it. I was the most busy with Mod 4 than any other. I had 3 chars waiting at lvl 12 to move to 14, favor for the new content, and getting the new items to help my template.

    Currently I have a 4th char at 14 now, I have all favor on one and most on a couple of the others, and most of the items I want on my main I have by now.

    To sum it up I think it was a grave mistake to not increase the level cap for this upcoming module. I know they in no way promised they would have a lvl increase every module...but I really think they should make that their plan. Now once the new module comes, we complete the few quests it comes with....other than the raid I dont see anything to hold my interest like a lvl cap increase would have. Until we reach lvl 20, I think that should be their focus...everything else should revolve around that.
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