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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shecky View Post
    We are Dwarf. Resistance is futile. We will assimilate the lower races. You will submit to us.



    In all seriousness, if people would quit complaining about dwarves (it's not like the other races are hurt at all by dwarves' innate superiority! ), then dwarves won't get nerfed. If dwarves do get nerfed, I'm going to Limburger the house of everyone who said that dwarves are overpowered.
    Unfortunately the tounge in cheek part of your response illustrates the problem. You should have statistical reasons for people to play each race with each class. Otherwise we wind up with yet another WoW clone.

    Also, If dwarves get nerfed you need to go TP/egg/cheese/flaming **** in a bag the people really responsible. The dev responsible for wasting all of his time making enhancements for one race. We would be much better off with parity between the races than a nerf of one.
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for wildshape!
    • Redo the Favor rewards so there is a reason to do max favor again.
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Task Lynnabel with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

  2. #102
    Community Member Maldini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grenfell View Post
    From the 6/25 WDA:



    Okay, this is cool and all but... is there any chance we'll get to some stability in the game system in the next couple of months?

    It's great for us build engineers to have more options to play with, but things like this really change the game system dramatically.

    For one example - any Dwarven defensive tank just took a large hammer to the head, unless I'm very mistaken about how things work.

    I'm pretty sure Human Barbarians now dominate the genre as well.

    It's cool to have new stuff with every patch, but could you let us know when you're done with the basic game mechanics and system so we'll know what the expect from DDO?

    Thanks,

    /gren

    This change is nice. It seems every time a new change comes out, my original tanks get better and more versatile.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by EightyFour View Post
    Well if that's the way it is going to work than I guess it's just a waste of programming and I return to my original statement of every time I see this list it seems that Turbine is just spinning it's wheel's looking like it's doing something.

    And the state of the game just gets worse and worse.

    How about returning HV to the way it was rather than setting up wastes like this.

    If not, well than well done on giving back some of what was taken away.
    It won't (and shouldn't) go back to the way it was, because "the way it was" was far overpowered. I don't see this as a waste of programming, because it (a) makes HV a viable enhancement selection for characters that don't see it as such currently; and (b) makes HV an even more attractive choice for those characters that already chose it.
    Christov Olaffsson, Hybrid Tempest
    Aeriaenna Donovan, Arcane Kensei Archer

  4. #104
    Community Member Shecky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Unfortunately the tounge in cheek part of your response illustrates the problem. You should have statistical reasons for people to play each race with each class. Otherwise we wind up with yet another WoW clone.
    That's not going to happen. There's a reason for the Favored Class description with every race - each race is best suited to a particular class, and each class has its "favorite" race or races. Just the way it is - dwarves have always ruled and will always rule. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Also, If dwarves get nerfed you need to go TP/egg/cheese/flaming **** in a bag the people really responsible. The dev responsible for wasting all of his time making enhancements for one race. We would be much better off with parity between the races than a nerf of one.
    Nah. The people responsible are the ones unreasonably complaining. Look at all the complaints about "unfair HV" for a long time before HV got the shaft. Look at all the complaints about "imbalance" that got Trip nerfed. Look at all the complaints about "overpowered" spells that got a lot of durations truncated. So on and so forth. And all of these were about a game where there's not supposed to BE any competition that would give rise to a "need" for "balance". People just want to complain about other people, and that's a tendency that's getting worse and worse - leave 'em alone, people.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shecky View Post
    each race is best suited to a particular class
    Maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shecky View Post
    and each class has its "favorite" race or races. Just the way it is
    No.

    In D&D, there is no "Best race for fighter" or "Best race for wizard." What race you're going to choose will depend heavily on a number of factors that go far beyond which class you are.
    Last edited by MysticTheurge; 06-28-2007 at 06:58 AM.
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  6. #106
    Community Member Shecky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticTheurge View Post
    Maybe.
    Okay, will you grant that there is a tendency to be better suited to some classes than to others?

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticTheurge View Post
    In D&D, there is no "Best race for fighter" or "Best race for wizard." What race you're going to choose will depend heavily on a number of factors that go far beyond which class you are.
    See above. I should have been clearer (but that's what I get for assuming people know what I mean - duh!): all other things being equal, there are always some races that are better suited than others to being a certain class if you're making a build that is at least somewhat standard. Once you start to get innovative, all bets are off. Same goes for when you go for a particular specialization or for more generalization. I'm just talking about mainstream tendencies here.
    Last edited by Shecky; 06-28-2007 at 08:31 AM.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
    It won't (and shouldn't) go back to the way it was, because "the way it was" was far overpowered. I don't see this as a waste of programming, because it (a) makes HV a viable enhancement selection for characters that don't see it as such currently; and (b) makes HV an even more attractive choice for those characters that already chose it.
    I won't(and should) go back to the way it was. So I mean that +4 search and the added +2 search for a total of +6 search you get as an elf or drow compared to the +0 search you get for going human.

    If you are going to build a rogue you had better go dwarf, elf, or drow. Boy I wish I had known that before I built a character with HV. Which was only a +4 vs. +6 btw, the only diffrence was it was to all skills. I'm sure that everyone was happy that there swim skill got improved.

    I don't see how this makes it a viable enhancement, if it stacks yes, that mean that they could help fix all the broken characters out there due to there nerf batting the s*** out of this game.

    Also it doesn't make HV a more attractive choice because people were using it for skills. You can no longer use it that way because it's a ******** clicky now.

    Everything that it gives you is c***, +5 non stackable AC, +5 non stackable attack, + 5 to saves, +5 non stackable damage, and +5 non stackable to skills.

    So how are Human's more versitile, because they can become stronger for 20 seconds, there eye sight gets better for 20 seconds, because there white cell count go's up for 20 seconds.

    It doesn't even make sense with the idea of HV, HV describes humans being able to handle several different tasks requiring different skills.

    The fact is that the dev's screwed up and than they screwed the palyers and even though they are sorry, the sit and do nothing about it but spin there tires.

    Here is my question to you Olaff, one, Do you play a Human character? and two, if you do have a Human character, How do you think this enhancement well make him better?
    (EightySix-16 Cleric)(Lockwood-10 Fighter/3 Paliden/3 Rogue)(Trapspringer-13 Ranger/2 Fighter/1 Rogue)(Darkwatch-12 Fighter/3 Paliden/1 Rogue)(KillDash Nine-15 Wizard/1 Bard)(Chaosxy-16 Sorcerer)(Rockcutter-16 Monk)(Accidental-15 Bard/1 Fighter)(Chainsaw-14 Barbarian/2 Fighter)(HealingWind-7 Cleric)(Handsomerob-2 Rogue/1 Barbarian/1 Fighter)

  8. #108
    Community Member sabs's Avatar
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    Warforged make must better Arcane swordsmen than Dwarves do

    a 9wiz/5 barb wf is significantly different from am 9cleric/5barb dwarf

  9. #109
    Community Member Mercules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EightyFour View Post
    The fact is that the dev's screwed up and than they screwed the palyers and even though they are sorry, the sit and do nothing about it but spin there tires.

    Here is my question to you Olaff, one, Do you play a Human character? and two, if you do have a Human character, How do you think this enhancement well make him better?
    The fact is the players screwed themselves, "What a wonderfully powerful Enhancement. I don't see why the Developers would ever consider changing it. Just because it replaces SEVERAL other enhancements and feats, doesn't mean it is broken." "WHAT! They changed HV? I never saw it coming!"

    My Fighter used it because it was a replacement for, Armored Agility and the Fighter's enhancement for Intimidate. My Cleric almost took it so her Diplomacy, Concentration, and Healing went up.

    In the current system it would make no sense. ONE skill boosted is 1,2,3,4 in cost, ONE. It would just be overpowered as a static boost. The only way it would fit would be if it allowed you to choose a single skill to boost similar to how the stat enhancements work for humans. Later on you could choose another one.

    And to answer your question to Olaff, I play a Human Cleric. I am trying to figure out how to add this enhancement in somewhere. The various boosts would be handy for her in a great number of situation. I don't often go toe to toe with the mobs, but having a bonus to attack, defense, and such would be helpful. I have a crappy Ref save(even with Trapblast Goggle) and trying to get through traps on elite can be rough so a Save boost would be nice. The skill boost I am not so concerned about.
    "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment."
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  10. #110
    Community Member Zenako's Avatar
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    Well I have 2 active and had a third Human character. None of them were what I would call skill based so none of them had taken HV as an enhancement, since at the time you could only have up to 4 slots total. I had more useful choices for my Paly, Cleric and Sorc (rest his spirit). So personally the first change to HV was a non-issue, however it was also clear that it was overpowered compared to other enhancements at the time. It was a no-brainer for any human based skill based character. Like getting something on the order of 40-60 skill points for free (one enhancement slot). Nothing came close. So the revision bat came out. It looks like the change swung too far in the minds of many, and it now looks like the developers are adjusting again. Game balance is just that, keeping things balanced.

    Right now you could put a good argument forth that the races vis-a-vis their enhancements are not balanced. That you have clearly preferred choices from a game mechanics point of view. That is not good game balance. In PnP there are a lot of factors that a DM can use to offset racial disparities in characters and experience earned and so forth. In DDO those kind of checks and balances are essentially absent (except for robot envy/hate).
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  11. #111
    Community Member Danekim's Avatar
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    "And.. the game changes again fundamentally "

    LOL!. A little less drama please.
    Somehow..I just dont think this changes the game fundamentally.
    Its a buff to humans. Thats it. An optional one at that.

    It doesnt diminish dwarves or any other race.
    "Of course it does not apply to me. I am the soul of honor, kindness, mercy, and goodness. Trust me in all things." - Corwin

  12. #112
    Community Member MtnLion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
    ...(Different HV boosts, such as skills and damage, should be on the same counter since they are just variations of the same basic boost)
    Just a small point, here, why penalize a fighter/human that chooses these three boosts versus the original HV (skills) and the fighter AC boost/fighter attack boost? They should definitely be separate counters.
    MtnLion

  13. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercules View Post
    The fact is the players screwed themselves, "What a wonderfully powerful Enhancement. I don't see why the Developers would ever consider changing it. Just because it replaces SEVERAL other enhancements and feats, doesn't mean it is broken." "WHAT! They changed HV? I never saw it coming!"

    My Fighter used it because it was a replacement for, Armored Agility and the Fighter's enhancement for Intimidate. My Cleric almost took it so her Diplomacy, Concentration, and Healing went up.
    The players screwed themselves? I have no idea how you got that one.
    So am I required to predict the changes to DDO for the rest of the time that it is out?

    And it dose not replace several other feats and enhancements, it makes them better than they are. Which I don't think is that bad a trade off for being Human.

    Guess I'm just tired of building characters only to have them nerfed and than replaced with an entire new character that I have to level all over again only to have them nerfed again so I can build a new character and level them again. I'm just sick of leveling characters I've all ready run thru several quests to get them thru.

    I refuse to re build another character, if it gets bad enough I can always leave, so that's always an option open to me.

    I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired of the nerf bat coming around every time I build a character.

    I hate the grind, I only grind it out again when I've forgotten what the lower level quests are about so I can enjoy them again.

    I just don't even care enough even more to debate this, the dev's well screw this game up enough and I'll get tired of it and take off.
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  14. #114
    Community Member Aladon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grenfell View Post
    It's cool to have new stuff with every patch, but could you let us know when you're done with the basic game mechanics and system so we'll know what the expect from DDO?
    /gren
    People play DDO for lots of reasons. Some people play for acquisition and maximum competence. Changes like this completely screw with them and their work. So I agree completely.

    As to all you "Oh, this isn't a big deal" guys. You say'll that right up until you group with Gren or someone using his new HV build, then you'll want one too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shecky View Post
    Nah. The people responsible are the ones unreasonably complaining. Look at all the complaints about "unfair HV" for a long time before HV got the shaft. Look at all the complaints about "imbalance" that got Trip nerfed. Look at all the complaints about "overpowered" spells that got a lot of durations truncated. So on and so forth. And all of these were about a game where there's not supposed to BE any competition that would give rise to a "need" for "balance". People just want to complain about other people, and that's a tendency that's getting worse and worse - leave 'em alone, people.
    Truer words were never spoken.

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by EightyFour View Post
    Here is my question to you Olaff, one, Do you play a Human character? and two, if you do have a Human character, How do you think this enhancement well make him better?
    Maybe you should read my signature. That will answer your first question.... and possibly, if you stop to think about it, your second question as well.

    But I'll answer your second question anyway, and in so doing indirectly answer your first:

    I think one of my Human characters, who already has HV, will now be better off because HV is currently ONLY useful for skills. If I don't have a need to use skills during a quest, then HV does nothing for me in its current form. With its new capabilities, however, I can hit more often - or hit harder - or, if I'm already hitting so hard I'm drawing aggro, help me turtle up - or help me save more when I need it. And, on top of that, I can STILL use it for skills if I need to!

    I think my other Human character, who does NOT already have HV, might take it. I'll have to see about that, though.
    Last edited by Olaff; 06-30-2007 at 08:05 AM.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtnLion View Post
    Just a small point, here, why penalize a fighter/human that chooses these three boosts versus the original HV (skills) and the fighter AC boost/fighter attack boost? They should definitely be separate counters.
    Different skill boosts (such as the two you named) are indeed on separate counters - just not separate timers.
    Christov Olaffsson, Hybrid Tempest
    Aeriaenna Donovan, Arcane Kensei Archer

  17. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
    Different skill boosts (such as the two you named) are indeed on separate counters - just not separate timers.
    Though, currently, (extra action boost: Whatever) will add to both counters. Hopefully that won't change. It's ALMOST enough for me to unretire a character of mine but not quite.
    Things worthy of Standing Stone going EXTREME PREJUDICE™ on.:
    • NEW - Fix the flipping non-proficiency penalties for wildshape!
    • Redo the Favor rewards so there is a reason to do max favor again.
    • Redoing the drop rates of tomes in generic and raid loot tables.
    • Task Lynnabel with updating the remaining legacy named loot to not suck.
    • Tiering the Runearms so that artificers aren’t screwed out of the advantages of Cannith Crafting in Epic levels on their signature item.
    • Finishing the enhancement tree passes (including racial PrE’s) before rolling out yet another DDOStore™ Enhancement Tree.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Though, currently, (extra action boost: Whatever) will add to both counters. Hopefully that won't change. It's ALMOST enough for me to unretire a character of mine but not quite.
    I agree, that is a nice feature of the "extra action boost." Now if only there was one that applied to HV...
    Christov Olaffsson, Hybrid Tempest
    Aeriaenna Donovan, Arcane Kensei Archer

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
    All these boosts are available under different classes, so it isn't going to change any numbers. Also, you can still only use one boost at a time, so a human paladin can't boost his AC with both at the same time. No, this isn't going to change the game at all. In fact, I think it is only a minor improvement to humans at best.
    My human rogue became worhtless I had to reroll him and my human bard took a serious hit in functionality.. I may reroll him .. Thats serious to me. Human Vers, while arguably over powered, was the only reason to play a human. I have all drow now like everyone else, with the occasional dwarf.. Welcome to DDO .. Dungeons and Drow Online ..

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