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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viragon View Post
    A well built fighter will usually go first in initiative have a suplemented will save spring attack, run, improved charge,... etc. My point is toe to toe A 20 fighter and a 2O mage come down to one roll initative and even then a fighter can still save.
    Well, in PnP there is this level 9 wizard spell called Greater Celerity. What it does is, you win inititative. Period.

    Then there's another level 9 spell called Time Stop, which gives you 5 free rounds of the fighter doing nothing. That's time for 4 Enervates and one Dominate Person.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Well, in PnP there is this level 9 wizard spell called Greater Celerity. What it does is, you win inititative. Period.

    Then there's another level 9 spell called Time Stop, which gives you 5 free rounds of the fighter doing nothing. That's time for 4 Enervates and one Dominate Person.

    Yes those are dominating spells. But remember a high level fighter is going to slice & dice the wizard (if we are talking one on one) and that spell caster has to get past that damage interrupting their spells. Time stop still does not prevent SR and saving throws from being effective once time re-instates.

    However I believe the discussion is about the tank's "usefulness" in a group and in that group the fighter's allies can help counter some of the things enemy casters will do.

    Just want to route this one back onto the topic at hand.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istivan View Post
    Yes those are dominating spells. But remember a high level fighter is going to slice & dice the wizard (if we are talking one on one) and that spell caster has to get past that damage interrupting their spells. Time stop still does not prevent SR and saving throws from being effective once time re-instates.

    However I believe the discussion is about the tank's "usefulness" in a group and in that group the fighter's allies can help counter some of the things enemy casters will do.

    Just want to route this one back onto the topic at hand.
    Now why would the caster be standing toe to toe with a fighter he's going to be fighting anyway? That's the way silly fighters think.

    And on the matter of getting back to the matter at hand, tanks in DDO seem to follow that above mentioned silly mentality. A clever group of casters will be in control ofthe fight beforethe fight even begins.
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  4. #24
    Community Member Darkdominion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istivan View Post
    Yes those are dominating spells. But remember a high level fighter is going to slice & dice the wizard (if we are talking one on one) and that spell caster has to get past that damage interrupting their spells. Time stop still does not prevent SR and saving throws from being effective once time re-instates.

    However I believe the discussion is about the tank's "usefulness" in a group and in that group the fighter's allies can help counter some of the things enemy casters will do.

    Just want to route this one back onto the topic at hand.

    There is this little thing I like to call a contigency spell. Way it works, you hit me, I teleport away, then rain doom and destruction on you from a distance. Fun. Also, how do you propose to even hit this mage? Between blur, displacement, mirror image, and all the other protective spells out there, your odds of a succesful hit are pretty low.


    And onto the topic....... I've always toyed with the idea of a party of only rogues, all with umd (for self buffs, ressing, healing, etc). Since the monster can only be targeted on 1 player at a time, on most enemies thats a extra 7d6 * 5 points of damage....per attack, on top of regular damage. Now, the group would have to be very co-ordinated, but with good players I imagine this would be pretty devestating.
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  5. #25
    Community Member Cruzer's Avatar
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    Tanks are nice to have, though the fighter in teh picture joined when we were going to do the Horn of Endurance. All you really need is a tank, healer, and caster to get anything done right

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruzer View Post
    Tanks are nice to have, though the fighter in teh picture joined when we were going to do the Horn of Endurance. All you really need is a well built and played caster to get anything done right
    [img=http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/3835/cruciblerz2.th.jpg][/url]
    fixed that for you

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    fixed that for you
    Hehe, aint it the truth. Not that difficult to build a really self sufficient caster. I have 4 32 pt characters, but the one I always go back to and enjoy playing the most is my 28 pt wiz.
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  8. #28
    Community Member Cruzer's Avatar
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    I agree. I like playing my sorc and outkilling the melee characters in the party, but i suppose theres a time and a place for everything. Although I could never play a wizard, they give sorcs 1800+ sp for a reason, and its not to spam monster summon and otto's dance. I never get bored hitting PK and FoD
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  9. #29
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    1 cleric
    3-4 casters
    0-1 rogue
    1 tank

    0-1 Rogue....This saddens me the most.
    Rangers don't die, they just teleport to their bind point.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roguewiz View Post
    1 cleric
    3-4 casters
    0-1 rogue
    1 tank

    0-1 Rogue....This saddens me the most.
    You bring up some interesting points:

    1) Can a rogue be easily substituted into the tank slot? Rogues can get high AC, do some pretty decent damage. Fewer hp and combat feats though. Or what about a rogue dual wielding paralyzers?

    2) What about pulling out one of the casters for a wizogue? They cant get their disable and search quite as high as a pure rogue, but pretty close.

    3) Could a really cooperative party do just as well without someone playing any kind of tank role? Just sneaking past all the fights, taking turns blocking doorways, just focussing on rogue stuff.
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  11. #31
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    I have two paralyzers <EVIL GRIN>

    I just run along paralyzing everything and let the rest of the group kill....Quite fun.
    Rangers don't die, they just teleport to their bind point.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roguewiz View Post
    1 cleric
    3-4 casters
    0-1 rogue
    1 tank

    0-1 Rogue....This saddens me the most.
    2 clerics + 4 casters > This configuration

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    2 clerics + 4 casters > This configuration
    LOL...I took that quote from Ghoste. Its not mine. I personally prefer:

    1 Cleric
    1 Bard
    1 Rogue
    1 Arcane Caster
    2 Melee

    Heals - Check
    Buffs - Check
    Artillery - Check
    Removal of dangerous devices - Check
    2 people to stand in between the ticked off CR20 and the squishy Rogue - Priceless.
    Rangers don't die, they just teleport to their bind point.

  14. #34
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    I prefer 4 casters for self buffing and mass destruction, and two clerics for the heals that won't be needed, thus they can spam destruction. If one of the squishies dies in a trap, at least there'll be one cleric alive to ress him.

    One of my most loved characters is a rogue but they are just not necessary, IMHO.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    I prefer 4 casters for self buffing and mass destruction, and two clerics for the heals that won't be needed, thus they can spam destruction. If one of the squishies dies in a trap, at least there'll be one cleric alive to ress him.

    One of my most loved characters is a rogue but they are just not necessary, IMHO.
    Which is why I am saddened. People fail to realize that Rogues have more to offer than "disable this and that"

    For example: Rogues are pretty much not needed at all in the Invaders quest, at least so I was told by a cleric on my server. Well, the cleric died (Quite painfully I might add). The group was half dead.

    And what does the useless Rogue do? Pops out a scroll and rez's the Cleric.
    Rangers don't die, they just teleport to their bind point.

  16. #36
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    I have to say, the caster-lovefest lately has me a bit ill.. My recent experiences with casters is that I'd rather run without them than with them.. Whenever I group with a caster (outside my guild and a few notable others), they tend to be worse than a barbarian for rushing aheadBy the time the rest of the party has zoned in, they've already run ahead and started FoD/PKing everything in sight . By the time we catch up to them, they're either dead from something they ****ed off that made its save (often), or cackling gleefully over voicechat about how their kill count is rocking. I saw enough of those types over this past loot weekend to add 'never PuG the caster' to my party-making notes.. right below 'never PuG the cleric'



    On the other hand, my latest favorite thing to do is run my fighter with 2 or more rogues. It doesn't matter that I'm taking damage once I intimidate everything (AC is still stuck at ~53 since I can't find mfp or take pally levels), because they don't last long enough to hit me more than once or twice before the rogues finish things off. If the cleric is busy or out of spellpoints, after the fight, well, that's why I carry ~300 csw potions and reload if I have to dip into the 2nd stack.
    A well played intimitank and a pair (or more) of rogues is all any quest really needs. ( To the guy who wanted a 6-rogue party, I used to want that too .. now I want an intimitank (can be substituted for a tactical fighter) and the rest rogues )


    One last thought, since several posters have presented 'non-standard' party makeups, here's one.. Our guild ran VoN3 last week with 3clerics, 1 sorcerer and 2 rangers.. All of the characters were lvls 6-8 and was a total blast with no wipes
    -=]ArchAngels[=-

  17. #37
    Community Member Talson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    I prefer 4 casters for self buffing and mass destruction, and two clerics for the heals that won't be needed, thus they can spam destruction. If one of the squishies dies in a trap, at least there'll be one cleric alive to ress him.

    One of my most loved characters is a rogue but they are just not necessary, IMHO.
    Aspenor I see your furstration although I've taken a slightly different path with my rogue lately and focused on paralyzing creatures and then letting the mages or the tanks kill them off. On mobs that have a higher resistance I'll switch to DPS with paralyzing in the off hand.

    As for traps if the party wants the exp I'll disable them. When the focus is getting speed runs done cause we are all capped I'll leave them.

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  18. #38
    Community Member bandyman1's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Aspennor
    One of my most loved characters is a rogue but they are just not necessary, IMHO.
    Necessary? Probibly not. ( but then, neither is any other class really ).
    An incredible asset to the party if played well? Absolutely.

    Recently, while playing around on Shar I noticed an LFM up for AtDQ. As I had completed the raid about 4 days earlier, and had another set of all three items, and the party already consisted of two fighters, a cleric, and two castrers, I thought; why not go ahead and flag? So I send a join request.

    (Tell) [Party leader] tells you; We don't need a rogue.

    Are you Fing kidding me? Have you never played this quest with a good rogue? Hello. Banishing rapier on the effrties. Better survivability than the caster to pop in the undead room (if it's the wrong switch ) and DD out. High enough jump to make it through the closing protculluses after throwing the switches for the rest of the party. Someone to disable the sonic traps. Ever wonder what bypasses a Rakshasha's DR? It's good aligned pierciers. Ever seen how fast one goes down when its getting hit with a +3 holy burst rapier of pure good ( that crits on a 15-20 ), and taking an additional 7d6 on every hit as long as the tanks keep aggro? Someone who can stand in the DQs blade barriers and laugh.

    All this while wand healing and rezzing the cleric if need be.


    Funny thing is. About an hour later, I'm resuppling after a TS run, and I get a tell from (party leader).
    (Tell) [party leader] tells you; What's your reflex save, and can you use rezz scrolls?
    (Tell) you tell [party leader]; +30, and I use raise dead scrolls on a 2.
    (Tell) [party leader] tells you; Wanna do a DQ raid?
    (Tell) you tell [party leader]; Are you Fing ********?
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  19. #39
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    Like I said, and as it says in my sig, I play a high-level uber-twinked out rogue. I love to play her. However, I find that if I want a quest completed quickly and RIGHT NOW, my caster is the one I bring in to do the quest.

    Heck I solo the DQ preps with my wizard and then bring in whatever character I want to get completion once the quest is finished. It's just easier and more time-friendly than actually looking for a party to do it with my rogue.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspenor View Post
    Like I said, and as it says in my sig, I play a high-level uber-twinked out rogue. I love to play her. However, I find that if I want a quest completed quickly and RIGHT NOW, my caster is the one I bring in to do the quest.

    Heck I solo the DQ preps with my wizard and then bring in whatever character I want to get completion once the quest is finished. It's just easier and more time-friendly than actually looking for a party to do it with my rogue.
    What, she drops blade barriers? And here I thought she was only trying to cool me off from all the lava down below.

    <---Almost 40 Reflex buffed
    Rangers don't die, they just teleport to their bind point.

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