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  1. #1
    Community Member kaidendager's Avatar
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    Default A Critical thought

    Pun intended.

    People have thought of criticals for a long time when considering weaponry and I would like to point out one thing that everyone seems to overlook.

    We shall assume 2-15 everyone agrees is a 1x hit, but for the following I am assuming you have Improved critical in the appropriate type.

    With a Rapier/Scimitar you get a 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x on 15-20 which equals 12.

    A heavy/light Pick you get a 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 4x, 4x on 15-20 which equals 12.

    A long sword/great sword you get a 1x, 1x, 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x which equals 10.

    A Greataxe you will get a 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 3x, 3x which equals 10.

    I never understood why people don't appreciate picks, particularly at lower levels. Heavy picks are about the equivalent of Vorpals at lower levels.
    KIP

  2. #2

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    1st, there is an error in your calculations. you cannot just equate it to 1x, 2x, etc. they are not comparable as the base damage is different

    assume only 1 is a miss, average rolls for dmg, crits are confirmed and no other bonuses to dmg with imp crit feat,

    rapier/scimitar = (13 x 3.5) + (6 x 3.5 x 2) = 87.5 dmg over 20 hits (assume statistical rolls)

    heavy pick = (17 x 3.5) + (2 x 3.5 x 4) = 87.5

    long sword = (15 x 4.5) + (4 x 4.5 x 2) = 103.5

    while a rapier/scimitar has an edge in crit range, the heavy pick makes up with the higher multiplier. there are how ever significant differences thou. a rapier is finessable, the pick or scimitar is not. in addition, when looking at weapons which requires a crit to inflict some effect, ie puncturing, banishing, the rapier/scimitar has the edge. a heavy pick is often the choice if a caster is around to cast hold person/monster where now, crit range is not the factor but multiplier is since all hits are auto-crits.

    longswords and other weapons while having a smaller range and same multiplier, is much better in terms of damage due to their higher base damage
    If you want to know why...

  3. #3

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    Actually, Light Picks are Finessable.....

    My Rogue build uses a Greater Dragon bane Light Pick..... 19-20 Crits are quite nice..

    Its Preference.......
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    Thelanis

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  4. #4
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    Default

    I love burst picks on my twf fighter, whenever something is held i switch to light picks.

  5. #5
    Community Member DasLurch's Avatar
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    Default

    Your damage #'s are a bit off too. MOST, not all, finnesse types don't have the extra str bonus added to their damage. with the str taken into account vs. the finesse types, the damage is about 40% more. I have a heavy pick fighter, and a slashing /khopesh type. The slashing damage of a khopesh hits for about 2/3's of a pick crit about 1/2 as often. A longsword hits for about 50% of a pick crit. A Rapier crit hits for about 1/3 of the damage that a pick crit hits for about 1/3 of the time. Now take into account the burst multipliers and a pick fighter is more or less on an even level damage wise with a Khopesh build, but he relies on those crits to really dish it out. Imagine a pick using barbarian and the numbers get really scary. The Barb's problem is in his feats though, so it's even a longer proccess getting one of those up to standards with the lack of ones availible. Slash builds are easier to get by on than peirce ones, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. Blunt builds are fun, but "NORMALLY" get out DPS'ed by the peirce/slash builds. The numbers pretty much work out to an even feild as long as the different melee types have similar armament. Loot is what really makes some builds shine, as I think most of us have learned by now.
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by DasLurch View Post
    Your damage #'s are a bit off too. MOST, not all, finnesse types don't have the extra str bonus added to their damage. with the str taken into account vs. the finesse types, the damage is about 40% more. I have a heavy pick fighter, and a slashing /khopesh type. The slashing damage of a khopesh hits for about 2/3's of a pick crit about 1/2 as often. A longsword hits for about 50% of a pick crit. A Rapier crit hits for about 1/3 of the damage that a pick crit hits for about 1/3 of the time. Now take into account the burst multipliers and a pick fighter is more or less on an even level damage wise with a Khopesh build, but he relies on those crits to really dish it out. Imagine a pick using barbarian and the numbers get really scary. The Barb's problem is in his feats though, so it's even a longer proccess getting one of those up to standards with the lack of ones availible. Slash builds are easier to get by on than peirce ones, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. Blunt builds are fun, but "NORMALLY" get out DPS'ed by the peirce/slash builds. The numbers pretty much work out to an even feild as long as the different melee types have similar armament. Loot is what really makes some builds shine, as I think most of us have learned by now.
    how is it that its off? i post the average base damage of the weapon ie strength not included. a 1d6 weapon, over 6 rolls will get 1,2,3,4,5,6 (which is what i meant as statistical rolls) so in all the avg damage = (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5.

    right now the ranger builds have some what changed. most will have about 20 str and a dex around 28 rather than a 32 dex low str build. many of them would be using finessable weapons and would have a significant str contribution.

    lastly we cannot just assume the crits are multiplier based. base damaged has to be taken into consideration. there are 2 variables here not 1
    If you want to know why...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    1st, there is an error in your calculations. you cannot just equate it to 1x, 2x, etc. they are not comparable as the base damage is different

    assume only 1 is a miss, average rolls for dmg, crits are confirmed and no other bonuses to dmg with imp crit feat,

    rapier/scimitar = (13 x 3.5) + (6 x 3.5 x 2) = 87.5 dmg over 20 hits (assume statistical rolls)

    heavy pick = (17 x 3.5) + (2 x 3.5 x 4) = 87.5

    long sword = (15 x 4.5) + (4 x 4.5 x 2) = 103.5

    while a rapier/scimitar has an edge in crit range, the heavy pick makes up with the higher multiplier. there are how ever significant differences thou. a rapier is finessable, the pick or scimitar is not. in addition, when looking at weapons which requires a crit to inflict some effect, ie puncturing, banishing, the rapier/scimitar has the edge. a heavy pick is often the choice if a caster is around to cast hold person/monster where now, crit range is not the factor but multiplier is since all hits are auto-crits.

    longswords and other weapons while having a smaller range and same multiplier, is much better in terms of damage due to their higher base damage

    Factor this fact into your equation.
    Roll statistics:
    1-3, 22% of the time
    4-7, 29% of the time
    8-14, 32% of the time
    15-18, 14% of the time
    19, 2% of the time
    20, 1% of the time.

    This from Combat Log copy/paste mathematics.
    On some days the percentages flip and I roll almost constant 15+'s, but then next instance I roll 1-7 literally 45% of the time.

  8. #8

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    how did you arrive at those numbers. if the rolls are true and accurate, then a 20 would come up 5% of the time.

    but 1 thing is true.... sometimes we get a string of numbers.... like how my pally managed 7 1s in a roll.... for save throws in invaders
    If you want to know why...

  9. #9
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    Default

    again with hold monster none of this matters and everyone should switch to picks as soon as they see something held.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaidendager View Post
    Heavy picks are about the equivalent of Vorpals at lower levels.
    Maybe they are... but Vorpals are not good in lower-level combat.

    A vorpal gives you an insta-kill on every 20 swings, average. That means if you are killing the monsters in less than 20 swings each, a vorpal is a net loss compared to a Frost or other effect you could get on the weapon.

    Vorpals are only really good against monsters with crazy-huge hitpoints or regeneration.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaidendager View Post
    With a Rapier/Scimitar you get a 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x on 15-20 which equals 12.
    A heavy/light Pick you get a 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 4x, 4x on 15-20 which equals 12.
    A long sword/great sword you get a 1x, 1x, 2x, 2x, 2x, 2x which equals 10.
    A Greataxe you will get a 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 3x, 3x which equals 10.
    Yes, or another way to look at it is to multiple the critical threat range by the (critical multiplier -1).

    The following numbers are out of all 20 possible attack rolls, with Improved Crit for all, and show the total crit power of each weapon:

    Melee Critical Power
    29: Sword of Shadows (18-20/x3)
    27: khopesh, Carniflex (19-20/x3)
    24: rapier, kukri/scimitar/falchion (18-20/x2)
    24: pick (20/x4)
    23: sword, dagger (19-20/x2)
    23: axe (20/x3)
    23: warhammer, maul (20/x3)
    21: club, mace, staff (20/x2)

    Range Critical Power
    27: Silver Bow (19-20/x3)
    23: longbow/shortbow (20/x3)
    23: crossbow (19-20/x2)


    The higher damage bonuses you have (strength, bard song, Divine Favor, weapon enhancement) the more the Critical Power matters, and the less important the base damage number of the weapon is.

    PS. The spelling of "Carniflex" above is correct as it was originally released in DDO.

  12. #12
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    There are alot of variables to consider for criticals. On another thread Gimpster's comments had me look into it quite in detail.

    One thing to consider is if you think its fair to assume you always hit (except on a 1). That can skew the results quite abit.

    As for the pick, its a heckuva weapon. When I get time I am going to follow a guildies suggestion. Barbarian dual weilding picks, heavy and light. With imp crit pierce and the enhancements to expand the threat range you will be looking at a weapon 17-20/x4. With the right weapons it will be devestating against anything not immune to crits.

    This build will be a hound for weapons, needing a large variety to be effective, and will suffer against undead in particular. But he will shine in other areas to an unbelievable extent I believe.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    There are alot of variables to consider for criticals. On another thread Gimpster's comments had me look into it quite in detail.

    One thing to consider is if you think its fair to assume you always hit (except on a 1). That can skew the results quite abit.

    As for the pick, its a heckuva weapon. When I get time I am going to follow a guildies suggestion. Barbarian dual weilding picks, heavy and light. With imp crit pierce and the enhancements to expand the threat range you will be looking at a weapon 17-20/x4. With the right weapons it will be devestating against anything not immune to crits.

    This build will be a hound for weapons, needing a large variety to be effective, and will suffer against undead in particular. But he will shine in other areas to an unbelievable extent I believe.
    bbn almost always used the huge "+" weapons, ftr have enhancements and feats to bring up BAB, pally can self buff with divine favor, etc. its not hard to run around with a +40 attack bonus. i ran gianthold pre-raid yesterday on normal, i was hitting stuff on a 2 with my 1st attack
    If you want to know why...

  14. #14
    Community Member AegisAndy's Avatar
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    One big downside to picks, as opposed to all the other weaps in the OP except the rapier, is that it is subject to nearly all damage reduction in the game.

    Slash weaps seem to have the broadest application, and since there are also some excellent weapon types with slash (khopesh, Bastard Sword, Scimi, Greataxe, Dorf Axe), they tend to get the most use. Additionally, there is a raw numerical advantage in specializing slash over pierce: there are 9 non-exotic slash weapons, where there are only 5 non-exotic pierce weaps. If you assume an equal drop rate, your chances of collecting a well-rounded set of slash weapons is nearly double that of pierce weapons.

  15. #15
    Community Member Crabo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Maybe they are... but Vorpals are not good in lower-level combat.

    A vorpal gives you an insta-kill on every 20 swings, average. That means if you are killing the monsters in less than 20 swings each, a vorpal is a net loss compared to a Frost or other effect you could get on the weapon.

    Vorpals are only really good against monsters with crazy-huge hitpoints or regeneration.
    Bah, so what am i gonna do with this Minimum level 2 vorpal then?

  16. #16
    Community Member Riekan's Avatar
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    Give it to me.
    Proud Officer of the Guild of the Black Dragon on Sarlona.

  17. #17
    Community Member Lorien_the_First_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabo View Post
    Bah, so what am i gonna do with this Minimum level 2 vorpal then?
    You want to be my new best friend? *holds out hands*

  18. #18
    Community Member Lorien_the_First_One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlassCannon View Post
    Factor this fact into your equation.
    Roll statistics:
    1-3, 22% of the time
    4-7, 29% of the time
    8-14, 32% of the time
    15-18, 14% of the time
    19, 2% of the time
    20, 1% of the time.

    This from Combat Log copy/paste mathematics.
    On some days the percentages flip and I roll almost constant 15+'s, but then next instance I roll 1-7 literally 45% of the time.
    Are you suggesting Turbine is cheating on the rolls? 1D20 should distribute 5% per roll point. Maybe you were using a small sample size above?

  19. #19
    Community Member TEK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaidendager View Post

    A heavy/light Pick you get a 1x, 1x, 1x, 1x, 4x, 4x on 15-20 which equals 12.
    can you explain to me how one would manage to crit on a 15-20 with a heavy or light pick?
    "Watching and Waiting I'm known to strike at a moments notice..."

    Let's play pretend... Let's pretend that you would be my friend, if you were real. I know you won't mind, your used to living in a dream...

  20. #20
    Community Member Catlyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEK View Post
    can you explain to me how one would manage to crit on a 15-20 with a heavy or light pick?
    He is not sayign you crit on all of those. He is saying if you 1 of each, you will get a multipler of x12.

    If you look at his numbers, he only lists x4 twice representing crits, the rest are x1 which are normal hits.

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