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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    with that many different kinds of damages to be factored in, the is simply no basis of comparision if there are no conditions given.
    Irrelevant, because conditions WERE given. We know that he's a barbarian, so we know what the Weapon Specialization bonus will be (0), and we know what the strength will be (around 30). We also know he's playing DDO, which means the weapon enhancement bonus will be +5. Under those conditions, khopesh is unavoidably best.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Irrelevant, because conditions WERE given. We know that he's a barbarian, so we know what the Weapon Specialization bonus will be (0), and we know what the strength will be (around 30). We also know he's playing DDO, which means the weapon enhancement bonus will be +5. Under those conditions, khopesh is unavoidably best.
    how abt showing us some calculations?

    edit: no conditions were not given. you assumed that he would be 30 str, using a +5 weapon. all we know is he'll be re-rolling a wf bbn. we do not know if he's gonna min-max, you just assume he would
    Last edited by Aranticus; 05-09-2007 at 09:55 AM.
    If you want to know why...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    with that many different kinds of damages to be factored in, the is simply no basis of comparision if there are no conditions given. try draw the cumulative curve of damages for 20 attacks of the given weapons w/o standardising the variables. if you could, i'm sure the next nobel prize in maths would be yours
    Woo Hoo I will try it for the FIRST Nobel prize in Mathematics

    The Nobel foundation doesn't award a prize for mathematics as odd as that may seem. And no its not because a famous mathematician at the time ran off with Nobel's wife, although that is a common myth.

    I have a spreadsheet that can help and it could be modified to consider all those. Let me know if your interested and I can email it to you.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    That is absolutely wrong. They do not have the same crit range, and the bonus from strength (and other bonuses, like the +5 weapon) is huge.
    I said Crit Multiplies I meant Crit Multipliers meaning the x3 the crit range is double for a Khopesh. I stand my by analysis. There is a difference to the advantage of Khopesh.. but it is not huge. in one result Namely a roll of 19(that hhits) where the threat is confirmed the Khopesh does 3d8 + 3xSTR_Bonus in damage whereas the D-Axe does 1d10 + STR_Bonus instead.

    The reason the total difference is relatively small is because on every other result where a hit is recorded needs to be considered. So if your hitting on a 10 or better on a D20 then results 10-18 look like
    1d8 + STR_Bonus
    1d10 + STR_Bonus

    for 9 results when you roll 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
    then 1 Result is (well not exacly but close I am ignoring the chance the crit will remain unconfirmed)
    3d8 + 3xSTR_Bonus
    1d10 + STR_Bonus

    Then 1 Result (roll of 20 and I also ignore the chance of not confirming the crit)
    3d8 + 3xSTR_Bonus
    3d10 + 3xSTR_Bonus

    If you want to see the maths on considering the effect of the crit remaining unconfirmed see my earlier post in this thread.

    So while in one result out of 11 the Khopesh truly shines, when you look overall at the results you will see on average that the effect is rather small. In Fact you will see that in this case the D-Axe does better average damage even when its harder to hit (because the harder it is to hit the harder it is to confirm a that crit on a roll of 19).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    There is no substantial difference between giving a weapon twice the crit range or twice the crit multiple. Either way, you are doubling the amount of extra damage achieved by critical hits.
    I'm not sure this is relevant to the discussion. Do the math yourself, you will see that the extra one critical result is not terribly significant. Now where it DOES start becoming significant is when you throw Improved Crit in there (or keen) since those double the double as it were giving the Khopesh 2 extra crit possibilities and the D-Axe only one. Also when you throw Burst effects and effect that happen only on Criticals the Khopesh can make a substantial difference. I addressed all that in my response originally.

    Your the one mistaken not me in this issue. And the kicker is that I am supporting your position just saying your going overboard. Anticus's (pardon if I misspelled) original analysis was good but missed something important, mainly the effect of considering that you don't always hit on a 2 or better. Once you start looking at that the Khopesh starts looking better and better compared to the D-Axe. BUT do the math yourself, even in that situation, without Imp crit or keen or burst or crit effects the d-axe does more average damage no matter if you need a 2 to hit or a 19 to hit. Now when you factor in Imp. Crit or Keen it gets closer. But guess what, even then the D-Axe does slightly better on average damage per swing. Those are mathematical certainties.

    Once you factor in burst the Khopesh shines, and also while hard to quantify, effects that only occur on Crits will help the khopesh. And while I haven't done the maths, I am near 100% certain that effects that help confirm crits (as well as enhancements) will help the Khopesh over the D-axe, just because there are more threats scored with the Khopesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    That's a mistake. Look, a typical raging level 14 barbarian with a +5 weapon will do a per-hit average of 28 with a longsword, 28 with a battleaxe, 29 with a scimitar, 29 with a dwarf axe, and 33 with a khopesh.

    The comparison is extreme: the khopesh is more damaging than the weapons he already knows, while the dwarf axe is not.
    That is the point, its not extreme, in fact the difference is quite subtle. While your conclusion is correct in my opinion, the Khopesh is superior to the D-Axe, your claim that the difference is extreme is in my opinion incorrect.

    Here are the average. The numbers given are the sum of the average damage over 20 swings. given that you need to hit 2 5 10 15 17 and 19 first without imp crit and then with.
    Code:
    No Imp Crit
    To Hit  Khopesh   D-Axe
    2+      102.6    114.95
    5+       86.4     96.8
    11+      54       60.5
    15+      32.4     36.3
    17+      21.6     24.2
    19+      10.8     12.1
    
    With Imp Crit
    To Hit  Khopesh   D-Axe
    2+      119.7     125.4
    5+      100.8     105.6
    11+      63        66
    15+      37.8      39.6
    17+      25.2      26.4
    19+      10.8      13.2
    In every case the Dwarven Axe is at least slightly better, I will leave it to you to work out the case with burst, but once you consider burst effects the Khopesh tops the Dwarven Axe.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Irrelevant, because conditions WERE given. We know that he's a barbarian, so we know what the Weapon Specialization bonus will be (0), and we know what the strength will be (around 30). We also know he's playing DDO, which means the weapon enhancement bonus will be +5. Under those conditions, khopesh is unavoidably best.
    I have made a blunder.

    I assumed that things like Weapon Enhancement and STR bonus were a wash. But they are not. Since the STR Bonus and Weapon Bonus are tripled in the one result where Khopesh potentially crits and D-Axe does not, there is much greater potential. In fact I estimated where that is.

    How much STR + Weapon bonus do you need so that the Average damage of a Khopesh equals the Average damage of a Dwarven Axe. This is without Imp crit. The answer is 6.5.

    Even if we assume the WF barb isn't min-maxing 6.5 isn't hard to come by. With many of the fights involving rage, its nearly assured he will exceed 6.5 total bonus to damage. A mere +2 Khopesh and 20 Strength would do that. I think + 3 Khopesh and 26 Strength isn't unreasonable for a raging barbarian, that is +11 well over the breakover even without imp crit.

    It gets more advantageous for the khopesh with Imp Crit.

    I stand corrected, Given reasonable starting stats the Khopesh is way better than the Dwarven Axe.

    I apologize Gimpster, you were right all along, there is a huge difference, and if you min-max your barb stats.. all I have to say is "Oh the Humanity"

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    I said Crit Multiplies I meant Crit Multipliers meaning the x3 the crit range is double for a Khopesh. I stand my by analysis.
    Ok, you can stand by your so-called "analysis". But it is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    The reason the total difference is relatively small is because on every other result where a hit is recorded needs to be considered.
    The difference is not small in this context. We're looking at the difference in damage between different weapons. Normal weapons like a longsword and scimitar have only one point of average damage between them- but a khopesh has 3 or 4 points more damage. That's four times as big a difference as between the other pairs of weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    Anticus's (pardon if I misspelled) original analysis was good but missed something important, mainly the effect of considering that you don't always hit on a 2 or better.
    Wrong. That effect not only isn't "important"- it is 100% irrelevant. Missing attacks on a 2 has makes absolutely ZERO difference. It dwarf axe and the khopesh in EXACTLY the same way. (Only if the character was a dwarf with the enhancement for Dwarf Axe Attack would there be any difference. But the character under consideration is a Warforged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    But guess what, even then the D-Axe does slightly better on average damage per swing. Those are mathematical certainties.
    No, the Dwarf Axe is worse on per-swing average damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    In every case the Dwarven Axe is at least slightly better, I will leave it to you to work out the case with burst, but once you consider burst effects the Khopesh tops the Dwarven Axe.
    Again, wrong. Without burst the khopesh is still better.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    edit: no conditions were not given. you assumed that he would be 30 str, using a +5 weapon. all we know is he'll be re-rolling a wf bbn. we do not know if he's gonna min-max, you just assume he would
    We know he's playing DDO. In DDO, +5 weapons are everywhere, so we can assume he'll get one shortly after level 8 (or even earlier).
    We know he's making a barbarian, so we know he'll be getting around 30 strength (or more). It isn't "min-max" for a barbarian to have high strength... in fact, it's "roleplaying" to be a musclebound brute.

    All it takes for a khopesh to be unequivocally better than a dwarf axe is a total weapon damage bonus of +7 or more. +5 of that comes from the weapon enhancement itself, so only a +2 strength modifier is needed. Unless he's a freak barbarian with under 14 strength, the khopesh is better.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Wrong. That effect not only isn't "important"- it is 100% irrelevant. Missing attacks on a 2 has makes absolutely ZERO difference. It dwarf axe and the khopesh in EXACTLY the same way. (Only if the character was a dwarf with the enhancement for Dwarf Axe Attack would there be any difference. But the character under consideration is a Warforged)
    Actually it has alot of effect.

    if your hitting your target on a 2 or better, your also confirming crits on a 2 or better. or 95% of the time a threat will be a crit. if your hitting your target on a 16 or better your (in the absence of enhancements/specials) confirming your crits on a 16 or better or only 25% of the time.

    So the difference between if your hitting on a 2+ or a 15+ can make alot of difference.

    I agree the Khopesh and D-Axe both are being assumed to hit on the same number.. but the khopesh gets better compared to the D-Axe the harder it is to hit. Since the D-Axe does 1 extra average damage on a normal hit, it gains considerable benefit from hitting on 2-18. on each of those results it gains +1 damage on average over the Khopesh. or +17 damage to be exact. Now on the 19 result the Khopesh threatens a crit while the D-Axe does not. This gives +2d8 or +9 average damage over normal. but the +17 from the other results outweighs that. Now however if you are required to roll a 15 or better to hit. All those results from 2-14 that were giving +1 to D-Axe now give +0 as each weapon does 0 damage on a miss. So the Khopesh does ALOT better since its real damage potential comes from the extra crit result at a roll of 19.

    So by assuming you hit on a 2 or better your actually making the D-Axe look BETTER than it actually is. If you instead consider the possibility of not hitting on a 2 but perhaps needing to hit on something larger, the Khopesh in comparison to the D-Axe gets better. You just have to remember though that if your not hitting on a 2 your not confirming on a 2 either and have to consider that when you look at the damage for a crit result.

    Anyway what I had missed before was exactly what you pointed out recently, that a bonus of 6.5 or better will result in the Khopesh doing absolutely more Damage than the D-Axe. I was at first thinking bonus damage from weapon plus and strength would cancel out. and it does except when on a result of 19 its tripled for the Khopesh and not for the D-Axe.

    and as you say +7 isn't hard to get at all, especially for a barbarian. And it gets even better for the Khopesh if you have improved crit, Burst weapons, and the Barbarian enhancements to widen the crit range. It also gets better if you have enhancements to help you confirm crits.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    from the above calculations, one can see that when it comes to normal attacks, the d-axe is a superior weapon as it has a higher base damage. a khop would be the winner if you are focused on getting crits due to is wider threat range.
    i just re-read my post to see what have is missed. and i think its actually Gimpster who selectively reads stuff and comment on the incorrect (or what he thinks is incorrect) portions. like i said, i never denied khopesh to be a superior weapon. however, its only SUPERIOR if you can get crits out. if you cannot confirm crits, d-axe wins. if the mob is immune to crit, d-axe wins. only when a crit or crit effect goes off will khopesh win

    there are tons of senarios with which we have to look into....
    If you want to know why...

  10. #30
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    My summary of this post so far would be as follows:

    1. Gareth asked a very valid question about dwarven axes and khopeshes, the answer to which could be very informative for many DDO players

    2. Aranticus showed an example mathematical analysis (very commendable to show hard data) which seemed to suggest that the khopesh was at best only marginally better than the dwarven axe and perhaps not even as good

    3. Since I felt that Aranticus' model was flawed because of the realities of DDO (high str for most fighters, routine high plus modifiers on weapons) I pointed out these flaws as I wouldn't want players to stay away from khopeshes which I feel are by far the better weapon

    4. Protagaras did an excellent job applying math to what I said to expand/confirm/validate the reality.

    5. Gimpster pretty much ignored what I had written and pretended he was the first person out there to disagree with Aranticus' analytical design. Except he did it in a condescending and aggressive manner, then chose to pretty much also attack everything Protagaras wrote, most of which I can find little fault in.

    For the DDO player, I believe this post clearly shows that moderate to high strength (non-dwarven) fighters focussed on 1 handed fighting should definitely pick khopesh over dwarven axe as an exotic proficiency. Of course, there's been no comparison yet to bastard swords, which I would love to see, having both bastard sword and khopesh specialized toons.
    Last edited by RobbinB; 05-09-2007 at 06:58 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    5. Gimpster pretty much ignored what I had written and pretended he was the first person out there to disagree with Aranticus' analytical design.
    Not only was I not the first one to disagree, but you weren't either. The reason I could answer so tersely is that it comes up time and again, as a quick search would show. Among players who paid attention to the game design of DDO, the superiority of the khopesh is obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Except he did it in a condescending and aggressive manner
    If you find it "aggressive" to honestly point out when something is false, so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Of course, there's been no comparison yet to bastard swords, which I would love to see, having both bastard sword and khopesh specialized toons.
    Of course, there has been much comparison to bastard swords. You might not be able to find it since the forum admins delete useful posts rather quickly, so I will repeat the results here:

    1. In terms of overall damage, the bastard sword is virtually identical to the dwarven axe. 1d10 19-20/x2 and 1d10 20/x3 are nearly the same: either way, 20 attacks from 1-20 will give you 22 damages at d10+enhance+str each. The relationship between dwarf axe and bastard is the same as between battleaxe and longsword. Note that for a typical fighter, the dwarf axe and bastard sword both do the same damage as the non-exotic scimitar.

    2. At high ACs there is a very slight (under 1/4,000 per swing) advantage to an axe, and at low hps there is a slight benefit to a sword (as it has less damage wasted in overkill). Those factors are too small to matter.

    3. Although the hitpoint damage output is virtually identical, the bastard sword has an advantage when used with any magic effect that triggers only on a critical hit (and which does not scale up with the critical multiplier). That means a +1 Bastard Sword of Enfeebling will do twice the strength damage as a +1 Dwarf Axe of Enfeebling.

    4. Bastard Swords cost a feat to use, while all dwarf warriors can already use dwarf axes. Since more than 1/6th of warrior characters are dwarves, a much higher proportion of the playerbase will be in the market for dwarf axes, and they'll be harder to acquire (assuming equal drop rate).

    So overall, the bastard is equal to the dwarf axe, except (1) crit effects trigger more and (2) there's less competition to acquire them. That lack of demand is actually the best selling point for the Bastard Sword feat, because not only are you not competing with dwarves to get them, but you're also not in competition with the many fighters who took the khopesh feat. Only a few characters spend an exotic proficiency on a weapon with suboptimal damage, so demand for bastard swords is low indeed.
    Last edited by Gimpster; 05-09-2007 at 07:54 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    Gimpster who selectively reads stuff and comment on the incorrect (or what he thinks is incorrect) portions.
    I read all of it, and it is true I only felt it necessary to comment on what was incorrect. Since you started by assuming the character has 10 strength and a nonmagical weapon, basically everything following was incorrect. Regardless of the accuracy of your math, starting with wrong assumptions leads to wrong results. Garbage in, garbage out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    however, its only SUPERIOR if you can get crits out. if you cannot confirm crits, d-axe wins.
    It is misleading to talk as if the ability to confirm crits were some kind of rarity. In reality, it is weird and unusual for a DDO barbarian to ever fail to confirm a crit.

    Furthermore, since the ability to confirm crits is based on the same AC you attack to get hits, the dwarf axe won't be hitting much on any monster you have trouble critting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    if the mob is immune to crit, d-axe wins.
    That goes without saying. However, if the monster is immune to crits it's most likely a skeleton, and no slashing weapon will equal the damage a club could do.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    however, it would also depend on the race of your new char. a dwarven martial character would have free access to the exotic weapon feat for d-axe, saving you 1 feat. in addition, dwarves would also have axe attack and damage enhancements which will add to the fighting prowess if you are using an axe. unfortunately there are no such enchancements for khopeshes.
    That is an interesting side note. It's true that although khopeshes are a better weapon overall, they are much less attractive to dwarves who can spend enhancements for +2 attack and damage with axes.

    However, even for a dwarf the khopesh might sometimes be better (particularly as it saves you 8 AP).
    A typical dwarf fighter with all axe enhancements attacking a typical monster will do average per-swing damage of
    26 longsword
    27 scimitar
    29 battleaxe
    30.3 khopesh
    30.8 dwarf axe.
    So the khopesh is still very nearly as good as a dwarf axe, even with +2 enhancements for the axe.

    The choice really depends on how much you value 1 feat versus 8 AP, and on whether you plan to use other axes like Greataxes or Throwing Axes, which can benefit from the enhancement too.

    I may as well do the same numbers for an elf fighter with the full Elf Melee Attack enhancements (which apply to longsword and rapier). This character is assumed to have Improved Crit Pierce and Slash (although realistically you'd pick one and stick with it).
    26 battleaxe
    27 scimitar
    29 longsword
    30 khopesh
    31 rapier

    Finally! A fighter with a one-hand weapon that clearly beats the khopesh.
    Last edited by Gimpster; 05-09-2007 at 08:29 PM.

  14. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    I read all of it, and it is true I only felt it necessary to comment on what was incorrect. Since you started by assuming the character has 10 strength and a nonmagical weapon, basically everything following was incorrect. Regardless of the accuracy of your math, starting with wrong assumptions leads to wrong results. Garbage in, garbage out.


    It is misleading to talk as if the ability to confirm crits were some kind of rarity. In reality, it is weird and unusual for a DDO barbarian to ever fail to confirm a crit.

    Furthermore, since the ability to confirm crits is based on the same AC you attack to get hits, the dwarf axe won't be hitting much on any monster you have trouble critting.


    That goes without saying. However, if the monster is immune to crits it's most likely a skeleton, and no slashing weapon will equal the damage a club could do.
    not all undead have DR/blunt, ie vampire, ghouls, zombies, mummies. other mobs that are resistant to crits include ooze kin, constructs ie iron golem
    If you want to know why...

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Finally! A fighter with a one-hand weapon that clearly beats the khopesh.
    From personal experience, the lack of 2H piercing weapons is the on that one.

  16. #36
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    1 damage or a double critical range. Khopeshes win every time. Specialy with bloodstones,

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    Quote Originally Posted by PurdueDave View Post
    From personal experience, the lack of 2H piercing weapons is the on that one.
    Yes, but in that situation, if you were considering the khopesh anyway, then by not picking it you have freed up a feat to get both imp crit pierce and imp crit slash.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    Yes, but in that situation, if you were considering the khopesh anyway, then by not picking it you have freed up a feat to get both imp crit pierce and imp crit slash.
    lol

    It's not that big of a .

  19. #39
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    On my fighter I have choosen dwarven axe and knopesh as feats.

    Well worth it.
    Few khopeshes...but one was a vorpal and one was a disruptor.
    Dwarven axes fall alot and I get real cool stuff with them.

    Bastard sword is another feat I have.....a lot of good weapons there too.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    4. Protagaras did an excellent job applying math to what I said to expand/confirm/validate the reality.

    5. Gimpster pretty much ignored what I had written and pretended he was the first person out there to disagree with Aranticus' analytical design. Except he did it in a condescending and aggressive manner, then chose to pretty much also attack everything Protagaras wrote, most of which I can find little fault in.
    For the record. I have no problem with Gimpster. He was a bit gruff, but never seemed rude. He was confident in his position, and was shown to be correct at least insofar as what I was looking at. I would have prefered him to argue the numbers buts its certainly not incumbent upon him to do so.

    Aggressive isn't bad and by building a rather interesting spreadsheet that I am currently working on adding things like the ability to consider various enhancements that help confirm feats, and being able to compare say +5 Khopesh vs. +1 Icy Burst Khopesh and such I have learned alot.

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