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  1. #1
    Community Member Gareth27's Avatar
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    Default Khopesh or Dwarven Axe?

    I am re-building a warforged barbarian and am trying to decide between the aforementioned weapons as a feat. Obviously this is a matter of personal preference, but I am interested to hear why people who took either of these exotic weapons, choose as they did.
    For our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.-Ephesians 6:12

  2. #2

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    just comparing weapons 1st noting else

    base damage:
    d-axe 1d10, khop 1d8 = d-axe

    crit multiplier:
    both x3 = even

    crit range
    d-axe 20, khop 19-20 = khop

    weapon type:
    both exotic = even

    considering no extra bonuses and all crits are confirmed and rule of statistics apply over 20 attacks:
    d-axe total avg damage = (18 x 5.5) + 16.5 = 115.5
    khop = (17 x 4.5) + (2 x 13.5) = 103.5

    with improved crit:
    d-axe = (17 x 5.5) + (2 x 16.5) = 126.5
    khop = (15 x 4.5) + (4 x 13.5) = 121.5

    with elemental burst and improved crit
    d-axe = (17 x 5.5) + (2 x 16.5) + (19 x 3.5) + (2 x 11) = 215
    khop = (15 x 4.5) + (4 x 13.5) + (19 x 3.5) + (4 x 11) = 232

    from the above calculations, one can see that when it comes to normal attacks, the d-axe is a superior weapon as it has a higher base damage. a khop would be the winner if you are focused on getting crits due to is wider threat range.

    however, it would also depend on the race of your new char. a dwarven martial character would have free access to the exotic weapon feat for d-axe, saving you 1 feat. in addition, dwarves would also have axe attack and damage enhancements which will add to the fighting prowess if you are using an axe. unfortunately there are no such enchancements for khopeshes.

    lastly, it also depend on the class you are selecting. a bbn would have high strength and low ac (bbn rage, heavy armor penalties). ac would thus be of a lower priority compared to dps. i'd suggest a 2H weapon to maximise dps as the str bonus will be 50% more than a 1H weapon. if a dwarf bbn, a greataxe would be the best choice.

    ps: i have still yet to figure how a 4.5-5' dwarf can swing a 6-7' long 2H weapon.... maybe very carefully
    If you want to know why...

  3. #3
    Community Member Club'in's Avatar
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    Aranticus speaks with much wisdom.

    I've found more dwarven axes.

    It's obvious if you are making a dwarf.

    The monstrous crit range of the kopesh once you get Improved Crit - Slashing is very attractive. But I'm 9th level and have yet to get my hands on a bursting kopesh.

    As the warforged barbarian, the answer is either neither, or whichever one you think would "look cool".

  4. #4
    Community Member AegisAndy's Avatar
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    An additional consideration, outside of the statistical breakdown above, is the on-critical effects available on weapons in the game.

    The doubled critical range for khopeshes make them literally twice as effective for:

    Smiting
    Banishing
    Enfeebling
    Crippling
    Provoking Bursts

    That can make a huge difference situationally. Especially on the instant-kill effects, the doubled crit range is a massive advantage.

  5. #5
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    OK, I'm no expert in statistics. I was actually surprised that your numbers seemed to put dwarven axes anywhere near khopeshes. I was pretty confident that the double crit range of the khopesh would make it by far the superior weapon, and not just because of the extra critical effects such as enfeebling.

    There is one additional point, however, that I don't think is factored into your example, and that is how the strength bonus factors into the actual damage observed. For example, let's say your typical melee fighter gets at least a +5boost to physical damage (from 20 strength). This means the average damage for khopeshes/dwarven axes is not based on comparison of 4.5 to 5.5but rather on comparison of 9.5 to 10.5. How would that then affect your final numbers over 20 attacks?

    To take this stream of thought a step further, any decent weapon in DDO is going to be +1 to +5 modified. So if our comparison is now for a +3 dwarven axe versus a +3 khopesh, then those averages now become 12.5 and 13.5.

    Also, there is the additional problem of attacks that don't hit and thus don't do damage. For a high level fighter attacking "regular" monsters, attack rolls in the critical range will always hit, whereas attack rolls below a certain number will actually miss. On the other hand, critical hits have to be confirmed. So the actual calculation is not so simple, but I would think that, for example, a lvl 14 fighter with a 30 strength and at least a +4 enhancement to confirmed critical (and maybe even the power critical feat) would nearly always confirm criticals but miss on extremely low non-critical rolls, which would further make khopeshes the clear winner over dwarven axes.
    Last edited by RobbinB; 05-08-2007 at 09:15 AM.

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    Default Khopesh vs. D-Axe


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    Pretty cool calculation tool.

    I plugged some numbers in quickly. They seemed to verify my main point: as strength values increased the gap between the khopesh (with a superior crit range) and the dwarven axe increased. However, this was only true for lower AC values (presumably where crits could be confirmed?), against higher AC values the weapon with greater base damage (in this case the dwarven axe) seems to become as good or better in terms of damage output.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobbinB View Post
    Pretty cool calculation tool.

    I plugged some numbers in quickly. They seemed to verify my main point: as strength values increased the gap between the khopesh (with a superior crit range) and the dwarven axe increased. However, this was only true for lower AC values (presumably where crits could be confirmed?), against higher AC values the weapon with greater base damage (in this case the dwarven axe) seems to become as good or better in terms of damage output.
    Yes, the confirmation of crits on higher AC's evens out the damage. But if you're taking Khopeshes, you should also be taking the improved crit feat along with the fighter's confirm crit enhancement-these really make the Khopeshes shine. I've seen no option on that calculator for a "+X to confirm critical" which I think would keep the damages from equalizing.

  9. #9
    Community Member Rentz's Avatar
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    assuming your crits land, the khopesh wins -

    the only time a dorf axe is superior is against mobs who cannot be critted, and it's only very marginally better at that.
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  10. #10
    Community Member Ilundel's Avatar
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    Pretty simply put, unless the AC is really high on the mob you are hitting, the khopesh will out DPS the dwarven axe - simply because of the crit range and the monstrous STR bonus applied to the crit (you can get STR up to 45 range with a barbarian all buffed) - on lower AC mobs, you will out DPS any axe by a long shot, but on high AC mobs, you will even out between the two weapons - at the best case it will be about 1.xxxx average damage difference between the two in favor of the axe on a mob that you only hit on a 17+ (crit range for the axe with imp. crit and rage crit enhancements).


    Quote Originally Posted by Hydrargyrum View Post
    Yes, the confirmation of crits on higher AC's evens out the damage. But if you're taking Khopeshes, you should also be taking the improved crit feat along with the fighter's confirm crit enhancement-these really make the Khopeshes shine. I've seen no option on that calculator for a "+X to confirm critical" which I think would keep the damages from equalizing.

  11. #11
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    A barbarian not using a 2hander? What is the world coming to?

  12. #12
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blazer View Post
    A barbarian not using a 2hander? What is the world coming to?
    Clerics thinking that a shield will stop all the high-Str elite mobs from hitting you.
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    Continuing the mathematical analysis.

    The numbers will depend upon your ability to hit the target also.

    Assuming that you hit on everything but a 1 makes the D-Axe seem a but better than it is. The gap starts getting closer when you look at needing to roll higher than a 2 to hit your target. Not as quickly as you might first think though as the harder it is to hit, the harder it is to confirm a crit, therefore the slower the Khopesh narrows the gap.

    For those of you mathematically inclined.

    if,
    n = Crit Multiplier
    p = Probability of scoring a hit (confirming a crit) = (1-(# needed to hit - 1)/20)
    x = Average damage of a regular hit

    then the Average Damage on a critical hit would be

    ((np+1) - p)x -or- ((n-1)p + 1)x

    So that you can see the decressing value of a critical hit on average the harder is it to score a hit.

    Once you consider Imp. Critical feat the difference between the two are negligible. Any Burst effect or Confirmation bonuses will help the Khopesh.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    from the above calculations, one can see that when it comes to normal attacks, the d-axe is a superior weapon as it has a higher base damage.
    That is completely wrong. You gave the weapons "no extra bonuses", and yet you claim those are "normal attacks"?

    It is NOT normal for a DDO character to go into melee combat without getting AT LEAST a +4 damage bonus from his strength, and possibly +10 or even more. Don't take a wildly unusual situation and claim it somehow predicts "normal" results.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth27 View Post
    I am re-building a warforged barbarian and am trying to decide between the aforementioned weapons as a feat.
    Barbarians should generally use neither, as two-handed weapons are where your power comes from. The advantage of a barbarian is you can rage to a very high strength, and the strength bonus to damage gets an extra 50% boost with two-handed weapons.

    The other warrior classes get their damage bonus from Divine Favor (pal), Weapon Specialization (fighter), or Favored Enemy (ranger), and all of those effects give the same bonus regardless of one-hand/two-hand weapon. So of all the classes, barbarian gives up the most damage by using a one-hander.

    So you probably shouldn't spend a feat either way. But if you're sure about it, khopesh is absolutely better. The only characters who should use a dwarven waraxe are dwarfs who get it without spending a feat... and even dwarves should consider learning khopesh instead.

    If your strength is low (under 22), then the dwarf axe can sometimes be better, as it has a bigger base damage. But with a higher strength the khopesh is clearly better, as its double crit range multiplies your strength bonus on 10% of all attacks. And of course, any real barbarian should have a strength much higher than 22.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimpster View Post
    That is completely wrong. You gave the weapons "no extra bonuses", and yet you claim those are "normal attacks"?

    It is NOT normal for a DDO character to go into melee combat without getting AT LEAST a +4 damage bonus from his strength, and possibly +10 or even more. Don't take a wildly unusual situation and claim it somehow predicts "normal" results.
    It may be somewhat wrong in analysis as it assumed you would always hit except on a roll of 1. However since they are both single handed weapons with the same Crit Multiplies the + from Strength is mostly invisible.

    I say mostly because the Khopesh will crit more often than the D-Axe, therefore your +Str will be tripled more often. So in a small amount of cases the Khopesh will do 3d8 + 3*STR_Bonus where the D-Axe will do 1d10 + STR_Bonus.

    This does again favour the Khopesh to a slight degree, I would not colour his analysis as 'completly wrong'

    I would fairly say though, that if your trying to maximize effect and your looking at having to spend a fea for either Khopesh or Dwarven Axe, you'll be better werved with Khopesh. Now it does seem to me that Dwarven Axe's drop with greater regularity, but I do not know that for sure. So maybe its easier to get good D-Axe's

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth27 View Post
    I am re-building a warforged barbarian and am trying to decide between the aforementioned weapons as a feat. Obviously this is a matter of personal preference, but I am interested to hear why people who took either of these exotic weapons, choose as they did.
    Khopesh because I like an extra base crit number more than +1 pt of base damage.

  18. #18

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    perhaps i shouldnt use the word normal but rather base damage. it can be difficult calculating weapon damages. typically a weapon damage can do:

    [(A+B+C+D+E)xF]+G+H+I+J damage

    where A = weapon damage
    B = str modifier
    C = weapon bonus
    D = weapon specialisation
    E = weapon enhancement
    F = weapon crit multiplier
    G = elemental/alignment damage
    H = elemental/alignment burst damage
    I = pure good/righteous/backstabbing damage
    J = rogue backstab damage

    remove F and H for non-crits

    with that many different kinds of damages to be factored in, the is simply no basis of comparision if there are no conditions given. try draw the cumulative curve of damages for 20 attacks of the given weapons w/o standardising the variables. if you could, i'm sure the next nobel prize in maths would be yours
    If you want to know why...

  19. #19
    Community Member Tiblorian's Avatar
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    Khopesh. Khopesh has double the criticals and only one less damage per hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    However since they are both single handed weapons with the same Crit Multiplies the + from Strength is mostly invisible.
    That is absolutely wrong. They do not have the same crit range, and the bonus from strength (and other bonuses, like the +5 weapon) is huge.

    There is no substantial difference between giving a weapon twice the crit range or twice the crit multiple. Either way, you are doubling the amount of extra damage achieved by critical hits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Protagoras View Post
    This does again favour the Khopesh to a slight degree, I would not colour his analysis as 'completly wrong'
    That's a mistake. Look, a typical raging level 14 barbarian with a +5 weapon will do a per-hit average of 28 with a longsword, 28 with a battleaxe, 29 with a scimitar, 29 with a dwarf axe, and 33 with a khopesh.

    The comparison is extreme: the khopesh is more damaging than the weapons he already knows, while the dwarf axe is not.
    Last edited by Gimpster; 05-09-2007 at 02:04 AM.

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