Last edited by Aranticus; 05-09-2007 at 09:55 AM.
The Nobel foundation doesn't award a prize for mathematics as odd as that may seem. And no its not because a famous mathematician at the time ran off with Nobel's wife, although that is a common myth.
I have a spreadsheet that can help and it could be modified to consider all those. Let me know if your interested and I can email it to you.
The reason the total difference is relatively small is because on every other result where a hit is recorded needs to be considered. So if your hitting on a 10 or better on a D20 then results 10-18 look like
1d8 + STR_Bonus
1d10 + STR_Bonus
for 9 results when you roll 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
then 1 Result is (well not exacly but close I am ignoring the chance the crit will remain unconfirmed)
3d8 + 3xSTR_Bonus
1d10 + STR_Bonus
Then 1 Result (roll of 20 and I also ignore the chance of not confirming the crit)
3d8 + 3xSTR_Bonus
3d10 + 3xSTR_Bonus
If you want to see the maths on considering the effect of the crit remaining unconfirmed see my earlier post in this thread.
So while in one result out of 11 the Khopesh truly shines, when you look overall at the results you will see on average that the effect is rather small. In Fact you will see that in this case the D-Axe does better average damage even when its harder to hit (because the harder it is to hit the harder it is to confirm a that crit on a roll of 19).
Your the one mistaken not me in this issue. And the kicker is that I am supporting your position just saying your going overboard. Anticus's (pardon if I misspelled) original analysis was good but missed something important, mainly the effect of considering that you don't always hit on a 2 or better. Once you start looking at that the Khopesh starts looking better and better compared to the D-Axe. BUT do the math yourself, even in that situation, without Imp crit or keen or burst or crit effects the d-axe does more average damage no matter if you need a 2 to hit or a 19 to hit. Now when you factor in Imp. Crit or Keen it gets closer. But guess what, even then the D-Axe does slightly better on average damage per swing. Those are mathematical certainties.
Once you factor in burst the Khopesh shines, and also while hard to quantify, effects that only occur on Crits will help the khopesh. And while I haven't done the maths, I am near 100% certain that effects that help confirm crits (as well as enhancements) will help the Khopesh over the D-axe, just because there are more threats scored with the Khopesh.
Here are the average. The numbers given are the sum of the average damage over 20 swings. given that you need to hit 2 5 10 15 17 and 19 first without imp crit and then with.
In every case the Dwarven Axe is at least slightly better, I will leave it to you to work out the case with burst, but once you consider burst effects the Khopesh tops the Dwarven Axe.Code:No Imp Crit To Hit Khopesh D-Axe 2+ 102.6 114.95 5+ 86.4 96.8 11+ 54 60.5 15+ 32.4 36.3 17+ 21.6 24.2 19+ 10.8 12.1 With Imp Crit To Hit Khopesh D-Axe 2+ 119.7 125.4 5+ 100.8 105.6 11+ 63 66 15+ 37.8 39.6 17+ 25.2 26.4 19+ 10.8 13.2
I assumed that things like Weapon Enhancement and STR bonus were a wash. But they are not. Since the STR Bonus and Weapon Bonus are tripled in the one result where Khopesh potentially crits and D-Axe does not, there is much greater potential. In fact I estimated where that is.
How much STR + Weapon bonus do you need so that the Average damage of a Khopesh equals the Average damage of a Dwarven Axe. This is without Imp crit. The answer is 6.5.
Even if we assume the WF barb isn't min-maxing 6.5 isn't hard to come by. With many of the fights involving rage, its nearly assured he will exceed 6.5 total bonus to damage. A mere +2 Khopesh and 20 Strength would do that. I think + 3 Khopesh and 26 Strength isn't unreasonable for a raging barbarian, that is +11 well over the breakover even without imp crit.
It gets more advantageous for the khopesh with Imp Crit.
I stand corrected, Given reasonable starting stats the Khopesh is way better than the Dwarven Axe.
I apologize Gimpster, you were right all along, there is a huge difference, and if you min-max your barb stats.. all I have to say is "Oh the Humanity"
We know he's making a barbarian, so we know he'll be getting around 30 strength (or more). It isn't "min-max" for a barbarian to have high strength... in fact, it's "roleplaying" to be a musclebound brute.
All it takes for a khopesh to be unequivocally better than a dwarf axe is a total weapon damage bonus of +7 or more. +5 of that comes from the weapon enhancement itself, so only a +2 strength modifier is needed. Unless he's a freak barbarian with under 14 strength, the khopesh is better.
if your hitting your target on a 2 or better, your also confirming crits on a 2 or better. or 95% of the time a threat will be a crit. if your hitting your target on a 16 or better your (in the absence of enhancements/specials) confirming your crits on a 16 or better or only 25% of the time.
So the difference between if your hitting on a 2+ or a 15+ can make alot of difference.
I agree the Khopesh and D-Axe both are being assumed to hit on the same number.. but the khopesh gets better compared to the D-Axe the harder it is to hit. Since the D-Axe does 1 extra average damage on a normal hit, it gains considerable benefit from hitting on 2-18. on each of those results it gains +1 damage on average over the Khopesh. or +17 damage to be exact. Now on the 19 result the Khopesh threatens a crit while the D-Axe does not. This gives +2d8 or +9 average damage over normal. but the +17 from the other results outweighs that. Now however if you are required to roll a 15 or better to hit. All those results from 2-14 that were giving +1 to D-Axe now give +0 as each weapon does 0 damage on a miss. So the Khopesh does ALOT better since its real damage potential comes from the extra crit result at a roll of 19.
So by assuming you hit on a 2 or better your actually making the D-Axe look BETTER than it actually is. If you instead consider the possibility of not hitting on a 2 but perhaps needing to hit on something larger, the Khopesh in comparison to the D-Axe gets better. You just have to remember though that if your not hitting on a 2 your not confirming on a 2 either and have to consider that when you look at the damage for a crit result.
Anyway what I had missed before was exactly what you pointed out recently, that a bonus of 6.5 or better will result in the Khopesh doing absolutely more Damage than the D-Axe. I was at first thinking bonus damage from weapon plus and strength would cancel out. and it does except when on a result of 19 its tripled for the Khopesh and not for the D-Axe.
and as you say +7 isn't hard to get at all, especially for a barbarian. And it gets even better for the Khopesh if you have improved crit, Burst weapons, and the Barbarian enhancements to widen the crit range. It also gets better if you have enhancements to help you confirm crits.
there are tons of senarios with which we have to look into....
My summary of this post so far would be as follows:
1. Gareth asked a very valid question about dwarven axes and khopeshes, the answer to which could be very informative for many DDO players
2. Aranticus showed an example mathematical analysis (very commendable to show hard data) which seemed to suggest that the khopesh was at best only marginally better than the dwarven axe and perhaps not even as good
3. Since I felt that Aranticus' model was flawed because of the realities of DDO (high str for most fighters, routine high plus modifiers on weapons) I pointed out these flaws as I wouldn't want players to stay away from khopeshes which I feel are by far the better weapon
4. Protagaras did an excellent job applying math to what I said to expand/confirm/validate the reality.
5. Gimpster pretty much ignored what I had written and pretended he was the first person out there to disagree with Aranticus' analytical design. Except he did it in a condescending and aggressive manner, then chose to pretty much also attack everything Protagaras wrote, most of which I can find little fault in.
For the DDO player, I believe this post clearly shows that moderate to high strength (non-dwarven) fighters focussed on 1 handed fighting should definitely pick khopesh over dwarven axe as an exotic proficiency. Of course, there's been no comparison yet to bastard swords, which I would love to see, having both bastard sword and khopesh specialized toons.
Last edited by RobbinB; 05-09-2007 at 06:58 PM.
would show. Among players who paid attention to the game design of DDO, the superiority of the khopesh is obvious.
1. In terms of overall damage, the bastard sword is virtually identical to the dwarven axe. 1d10 19-20/x2 and 1d10 20/x3 are nearly the same: either way, 20 attacks from 1-20 will give you 22 damages at d10+enhance+str each. The relationship between dwarf axe and bastard is the same as between battleaxe and longsword. Note that for a typical fighter, the dwarf axe and bastard sword both do the same damage as the non-exotic scimitar.
2. At high ACs there is a very slight (under 1/4,000 per swing) advantage to an axe, and at low hps there is a slight benefit to a sword (as it has less damage wasted in overkill). Those factors are too small to matter.
3. Although the hitpoint damage output is virtually identical, the bastard sword has an advantage when used with any magic effect that triggers only on a critical hit (and which does not scale up with the critical multiplier). That means a +1 Bastard Sword of Enfeebling will do twice the strength damage as a +1 Dwarf Axe of Enfeebling.
4. Bastard Swords cost a feat to use, while all dwarf warriors can already use dwarf axes. Since more than 1/6th of warrior characters are dwarves, a much higher proportion of the playerbase will be in the market for dwarf axes, and they'll be harder to acquire (assuming equal drop rate).
So overall, the bastard is equal to the dwarf axe, except (1) crit effects trigger more and (2) there's less competition to acquire them. That lack of demand is actually the best selling point for the Bastard Sword feat, because not only are you not competing with dwarves to get them, but you're also not in competition with the many fighters who took the khopesh feat. Only a few characters spend an exotic proficiency on a weapon with suboptimal damage, so demand for bastard swords is low indeed.
Last edited by Gimpster; 05-09-2007 at 07:54 PM.
Furthermore, since the ability to confirm crits is based on the same AC you attack to get hits, the dwarf axe won't be hitting much on any monster you have trouble critting.
However, even for a dwarf the khopesh might sometimes be better (particularly as it saves you 8 AP).
A typical dwarf fighter with all axe enhancements attacking a typical monster will do average per-swing damage of
30.8 dwarf axe.
So the khopesh is still very nearly as good as a dwarf axe, even with +2 enhancements for the axe.
The choice really depends on how much you value 1 feat versus 8 AP, and on whether you plan to use other axes like Greataxes or Throwing Axes, which can benefit from the enhancement too.
I may as well do the same numbers for an elf fighter with the full Elf Melee Attack enhancements (which apply to longsword and rapier). This character is assumed to have Improved Crit Pierce and Slash (although realistically you'd pick one and stick with it).
Finally! A fighter with a one-hand weapon that clearly beats the khopesh.
Last edited by Gimpster; 05-09-2007 at 08:29 PM.
1 damage or a double critical range. Khopeshes win every time. Specialy with bloodstones,
On my fighter I have choosen dwarven axe and knopesh as feats.
Well worth it.
Few khopeshes...but one was a vorpal and one was a disruptor.
Dwarven axes fall alot and I get real cool stuff with them.
Bastard sword is another feat I have.....a lot of good weapons there too.
Aggressive isn't bad and by building a rather interesting spreadsheet that I am currently working on adding things like the ability to consider various enhancements that help confirm feats, and being able to compare say +5 Khopesh vs. +1 Icy Burst Khopesh and such I have learned alot.
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