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  1. #1
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    Default Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder

    I'm curious about other player's experiences with Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder. -- Specifically, how useful are they in the end game, 12+ lvl quests.

    I'm concerned, with both of them being Fortitude saves, and mobs having ungodly Constitution -- I'll rarely land these when needed.

    My toon is a 12 Cleric/2 Fighter. Has an effective Strength of 30. (Human).

    By my estimates, the DC will be around 24-26. (But aren't most mobs base fort saves 20+? .. so they'll only be affected with a roll of 1?)
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  2. #2
    Community Member AegisAndy's Avatar
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    Two kind of separate things here: how good are imp sunder and stunning blow, and how well might they work on your build.

    Sunder and improved sunder are perhaps a bit underused, but there are good reasons for that. A destruction weapon creates the same effect with no save, isn't on a timer, and isn't one-shot (you can keep swinging if you miss). Destruction weapons are becoming more and more common, and so sunder is less and less practical.

    That said, if you have a couple of good tanks in a party who can combine on an end boss to sunder and destruct, that -8 AC is pretty deadly. Improved sunder is just going to improve the DC of a sunder attack, but honestly Shatter weapons are cheap as dirt, and you can find a nice one pretty easily by keeping any eye on the vendor/auction house.

    On the other hand, stunning blow is amazing. It can create the same effect as hold monster, only without a spell point limitation and on a longer timer. In the "end game" of gianthold quests on elite, stunning blow still lands fairly frequently if you are specced for it. My fighter is specced for trip, but his stunning blow probably still lands 1/3 of the time in the end content. Again, a weighted weapon helps a great deal. In the case of Stunning Blow, being a 2-hander and having maxxed out strength makes you a beast too.

    Now, given what I know of your build (not much), I'm not sure I'd take either of them. Holy Smite is 10x as effective as sunder or stunning blow in its current incarnation, so I'd stick with that for your CC/debuff, and take a feat to either make that easier to use or to make your general melee prowess better (weap focus, imp. crit, toughness, etc.).

  3. #3
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    Going to have to agree here that if you are built for Strength, can take the enhancements, and have a weapon associated with the combat skill, then you will land it very often. This goes for trip, sunder, and stunning blow.

    My smashing Barbarian/Rogue at 28 STR with +10 to combat skill (weighted, vertigo, shatter) Weapon in tow finds no issues when it comes to landing a trip or stunning blow. However, not having the weapon that benefits the combat skill will show a large difference in its effectiveness.
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  4. #4
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    I'm not really using sunder, but stunning blow still works fine in high end game, though you really need a weighted weapon (I'm using a +10, or 5% now) to make it land reliably. It's awesome to get rid of some mob quickly (make sure you switch to a high damage weapon, like a greataxe or a pick).

  5. #5
    DDO Catalog MrCow's Avatar
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    make sure you switch to a high damage weapon, like a greataxe or a pick
    I find that by keeping the 5% weighted greatclub on that I usually restun the thing.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by AegisAndy View Post
    Now, given what I know of your build (not much), I'm not sure I'd take either of them. Holy Smite is 10x as effective as sunder or stunning blow in its current incarnation, so I'd stick with that for your CC/debuff, and take a feat to either make that easier to use or to make your general melee prowess better (weap focus, imp. crit, toughness, etc.).
    My cleric is aspect to fuel my melee prowess. I don't even try to use spells offensively -- if any, I'll use rays since there is no save, or Cometfall for the trip effect. (For you're info -- my effective wisdom is 20).

    For the most part, my SP goes toward a perma: Divine Favor/Divine Power buffs primarily with secondary buffs being mainly Freedom of Movement, Death Ward and Spell Resistance.

    I Power Attack all the time, Cleave and G.Cleave whenever I can. (FYI - my feats overall are: Power Attack, Extend Spell, EWP:Khopesh, Cleave, G.Cleave, Improved Critical, Stunning Blow)

    I was hoping these feats would give me a little more utility and solo capability. And from everyone's input -- it sounds like even though I'm not a Dwarven Fighter, I'll be able to use them with good success.

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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by AegisAndy View Post
    Two kind of separate things here: how good are imp sunder and stunning blow, and how well might they work on your build.

    Sunder and improved sunder are perhaps a bit underused, but there are good reasons for that. A destruction weapon creates the same effect with no save, isn't on a timer, and isn't one-shot (you can keep swinging if you miss). Destruction weapons are becoming more and more common, and so sunder is less and less practical.

    That said, if you have a couple of good tanks in a party who can combine on an end boss to sunder and destruct, that -8 AC is pretty deadly. Improved sunder is just going to improve the DC of a sunder attack, but honestly Shatter weapons are cheap as dirt, and you can find a nice one pretty easily by keeping any eye on the vendor/auction house.
    destruction does have a timer. it'll wear off after some time but definitely longer than that of sunder. i've done demon queen with a destruction bow. each time my multi shot timer recharges, the destruction effect would be lost. i figured this out by looking at the combat log. a roll of 6 could hit 1 moment but a roll of 8 may not. (note bow do not have increasing bonus like melee, movement penalty of -4 is also factored in)

    Quote Originally Posted by AegisAndy View Post
    On the other hand, stunning blow is amazing. It can create the same effect as hold monster, only without a spell point limitation and on a longer timer. In the "end game" of gianthold quests on elite, stunning blow still lands fairly frequently if you are specced for it. My fighter is specced for trip, but his stunning blow probably still lands 1/3 of the time in the end content. Again, a weighted weapon helps a great deal. In the case of Stunning Blow, being a 2-hander and having maxxed out strength makes you a beast too.
    stunning blow is definitely not longer than a hold monster. its only 6 seconds of critical hits. a hold spell is shorter as it has saving throws every round of combat. if the mob's will save is high, it'll wear off quick unlike stunning blow which has no secondary saves. my wiz with enchantment bracers and heighten feat is able to keep mobs held for as long as 15-25 seconds.
    If you want to know why...

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManinBlaq View Post
    My cleric is aspect to fuel my melee prowess. I don't even try to use spells offensively -- if any, I'll use rays since there is no save, or Cometfall for the trip effect. (For you're info -- my effective wisdom is 20).

    For the most part, my SP goes toward a perma: Divine Favor/Divine Power buffs primarily with secondary buffs being mainly Freedom of Movement, Death Ward and Spell Resistance.

    I Power Attack all the time, Cleave and G.Cleave whenever I can. (FYI - my feats overall are: Power Attack, Extend Spell, EWP:Khopesh, Cleave, G.Cleave, Improved Critical, Stunning Blow)

    I was hoping these feats would give me a little more utility and solo capability. And from everyone's input -- it sounds like even though I'm not a Dwarven Fighter, I'll be able to use them with good success.

    Thank you.
    question is, do you have a weighted weapon

    with my club my DC for stun stands at

    10 (base DC) + 11 (str bonus) + 4 (ftr strategy IV) + 10 (weighted +10)

    for a total of 35. with this, i'm hitting mobs roughly 50-60% of the time. w/o the strategy and weighted weapon, you'll be only landing a stun if they roll a 1 as your stun DC will be 20 (note: stun is a fort save and most mobs have like 30-40 con)
    If you want to know why...

  9. #9
    Community Member AegisAndy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aranticus View Post
    stunning blow is definitely not longer than a hold monster.
    I actually just meant that the timer was longer, meaning the cooldown time. Holds can be recast quicker than fighters will get to re-stun.

  10. #10
    Community Member AegisAndy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManinBlaq View Post
    I Power Attack all the time, Cleave and G.Cleave whenever I can. (FYI - my feats overall are: Power Attack, Extend Spell, EWP:Khopesh, Cleave, G.Cleave, Improved Critical, Stunning Blow)
    Sounds like a pretty decent melee lineup.

    Just as far as tripping, stunning and sundering, take off power attack when you do them. Mobs don't have to make a save if you miss, so you want to make sure you actually make contact.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by AegisAndy View Post
    I actually just meant that the timer was longer, meaning the cooldown time. Holds can be recast quicker than fighters will get to re-stun.
    however, if u use a weight weapon, there a % chance the mob is stunned, no save
    If you want to know why...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCow View Post
    I find that by keeping the 5% weighted greatclub on that I usually restun the thing.
    I find that I can kill 98% of current mob before the stun wears off with a +2 shocking burst heavy pick of backstabbing +3

  13. #13
    Community Member Tanka's Avatar
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    Stunning Blow is worth it versus any casters (who you should be tripping/stunning/whatevering anyway FIRST), who have low Fort saves in the first place.

    In PotP, I can Stun the Mindflayers. Str 28 (still no Str 6 item, dagnabbit!), Dwarf Tactics 3, Fighter Stunning Blow 4, Weighted 4% (+8). That's 10 (base) + 9 (Str) + 7 (Enhancements) +8 (weapon) = DC36 Fort save or be stunned, which leaves them dead very quickly.

    A Weighted 5% weapon and Str 30 puts it at DC38, and anyone who put 18 pts into Str first can get it to DC39.

    Casters will fail it almost every time. They are the ones who should be stunned.

    If you throw the Stun on your fourth swing, you will connect. If you aren't built for it, they may save more often, but I've found that being built for it can greatly enhance a party's speed at killing things, because that monster is DEAD. Unless you're dealing so little damage to it that it comes out and heals, there's no problems with it later.
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  14. #14

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    Tanka summed it up quite well. most of the players who use stun are usually fighters. we have an edge because of the enhancement fighter strategy: stun. for dwarves, they have the dwarven strategy enhancement on top of the fighter and they stack. my human fighter is a strategist/tatical fighter. i have the enhancement for both trip and stun. i have vertigo 8 and weighted 10 weapons. i took quick draw for faster switching of weapons and khopesh for the crit bonus. how does it work out?

    i open up a fight by tripping 1 mob (i usually go for casters 1st), my DC of 37 tells me its gonna sit there for a long time so i will move off the the 2nd once i tripped it. in the process of moving to the 2nd mob, i'll switch to my weighted weapon, stun the 2nd mob, switch to a burst khopesh and within 4-6 swings the mob is dead. i'll then move to the 3rd with my paralyser and paralyse the mob. so effectively, in the perfect senario (all my feats land and i attack first) i'd killed 3 mobs w/o taking a point of damage. but most of the time, i'd only be hit a couple of times during the 1st swing at each mob

    the OP's problem is he's a clr12/ftr2. he'd only have ftr strategy I, if he's a not dwarf, he'll not have the dwarven enhancement. his stun DC is not going to be as high. it'll be 10 + 10(30 str) + 1(ftr strategy I) = 21. if the mobs save my DC35 stun half of the time, it'd mean their fort save is +25. only will a roll on 1 will they fail the OP's stun. unless he has a weighted weapon (and they are not easy to find) will he only have a decent chance of stunning
    If you want to know why...

  15. #15
    Community Member rockcrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AegisAndy View Post
    Improved sunder is just going to improve the DC of a sunder attack
    Has this changed? Last i knew, improved trip or sunder only affected the duration of a trip or sunder, not a + to the DC.
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockcrown View Post
    Has this changed? Last i knew, improved trip or sunder only affected the duration of a trip or sunder, not a + to the DC.
    improved give a +4 to the DC of the combat feat, since the DC is higher, the mobs fail more often and thus for trip, they take a statiscal longer time to roll a save to stand
    If you want to know why...

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